Civ 5 Testers group ... AKA I HATE YOU GUYZ !!!

[PPQ_Purple]

Well, what ever it is. It will probably be more than 80 people.

I mean, I had a hearth attack when I read that number.



And besides, there are also a lot of built up frustrations from other games and products that are released full of bugs now a days.
I mean, what was the last game you purchased that was bug free without patches? I can't even remember.

 

[Valkrionn]

A company is not a human being. It does not have any emotions. So why should we care about it?

Why should I give a dam if the company earns a little more or a little less.
There is nothing osteopathic about it. It's just common sense.


By your logic, one should wish for the prices of milk and bread to rise to a million dollars a peace so that the cows and the bakers are extra super duper happy.

For one thing, because the people that make up the company need to survive as well? It's called empathy. Maybe you've heard of it.

Second, and more important in this case, if the company makes money they can go on to provide more services. Eugene already stated that quite well, though, so I won't do it again.

Your understanding of the market is laughable. If you enjoy the products that a company makes, then it absolutely is in your interests for the company to do well.

Let's see if I can put this simply... Let's say a company makes product A, for which you are the only potential customer. Let's say that the product is worth $100 of entertainment to you (I would have to say Civ IV has been worth WELL over that for me), and the company needs to make $30 profit on the product in order to produce a second product B, which would also be worth $100 of entertainment to you. If their cost is $20, they need to sell it for $50.

If you, knowing that you are their only customer, hold out and say that you will only pay $20 for it, then one of three things will happen: a) The company will sell it to you for $20, you will gain $80 of utility, and they will not make product B. b) The company will not sell it to you, you refuse to pay more than $20 (despite the fact that it is worth $100 to you), you gain no utility, and the company still does not make product B. c) The company does not lower the price, you fork over the $50, the company makes product B, and you buy it for $50 as well, and you gain a net utility of $100.

Granted, the actual situation with Firaxis, Civ, and Steam is much more complicated... Marginal cost for each copy sold is almost negligible, thus every copy sold after recouping inital costs (which are high) is pure profit. That's one of the reasons games go on sale for so cheap on Steam - if the initial costs have already been recouped or written off, every additional copy they can sell at any cost is a good deal to them. But regardless of the complexity, it's still silly to say that the well-being of a company that makes a product you enjoy is completely meaningless to you.

The well being beyond a certain point is unimportant.
What difference does it make to me, the consumer if the company earns 1 million or 10 million?
I am not against them earning money like you seem to think.

But I am against them doing things like not having a proper beta or using ubi soft DRM because they wanted to earn MOAR.
And that is what is happening right now with a lot of games.



There is a huge difference.


That is why my examples, as idiotic as they sounded were right on. This has nothing to do with doing well and everything to do with cutting costs and simply squeezing every cent they can out of the consumer base.

Of course that's what's happening with many games. I haven't argued that. I've even said so. EA is a prime culprit there; I flat out will not purchase from them.

However, that flat out is not what is happening with Civ5. It isn't. There WAS a proper beta (for the love of god, I don't know how I can make that clearer. It would not have mattered how many more people were involved; You'd have found 1 or 2 more bugs, at a very high cost. That is a ridiculous thing to expect, and that is all there is to it. I don't know what experience (or lackthereof) you may have with software development, but that is fact.

Steam is also an enormous distance from ubisoft or EA style DRM. But we've been over that as well.

 

[hbar]

I mean, what was the last game you purchased that was bug free without patches? I can't even remember.

This is the point that everyone who is debating you on this thread is trying to make.

Commander Keen had bugs. Pong had bugs. Every game ever released had bugs. The Civ V launch has gone remarkably smooth. Yes, there are bugs. Yes, the bugs are keeping some people from playing. I just don't see where the surprise comes in.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well, what ever it is. It will probably be more than 80 people.

I mean, I had a hearth attack when I read that number.



And besides, there are also a lot of built up frustrations from other games and products that are released full of bugs now a days.
I mean, what was the last game you purchased that was bug free without patches? I can't even remember.

It is not. Many games go public with a FAR smaller collection of testers. For example, pretty much every last ing console game. The fact that there was a beta at all, rather than just QA people, is a good thing!

And as has been stated, you will NEVER see a game that is completely bug free. The code bases have become too large, too complex. When it's released, people will try things that the devs will NEVER have thought of, and find bugs. The number of people testing doesn't matter; There will always be bugs found when you release. Even hundreds of testers would just be a drop in the bucket compared to the number of players you will have; Only those who have no idea how software works expect every last bug to be found.

 

[Jester Fool]

Only those who have no idea how software works expect every last bug to be found.

Well I *definitely* know a little something (coding my own DX10 game engine) and although I do expect every bug to be found (eventually), as you've stated numerous times, it is well nigh impossible. It took me 4 days of coding and recoding just to figure out I had found a bug (reported it to Microsoft too) in DirectX. They have thousands of programmers and gobs of money but bugs do still slip thru.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well I *definitely* know a little something (coding my own DX10 game engine) and although I do expect every bug to be found (eventually), as you've stated numerous times, it is well nigh impossible. It took me 4 days of coding and recoding just to figure out I had found a bug (reported it to Microsoft too) in DirectX. They have thousands of programmers and gobs of money but bugs do still slip thru.

Exactly.

Bugs are a fact of programming. You'll get them all eventually, but never simply from testing; It needs to be released, for people to do the odd things you would NEVER think of.


While talking about programming: I just spent 30 minutes testing a lua script (new display for something I'm doing), trying to find out why the damn thing wasn't working, before I realized I was missing a single 'end' after an if. Damnit.

 

[hbar]

That's why I love Python. Whitespace enforced looping.

 

[Valkrionn]

Eh, it's not really something that would normally trip me up. Used to closing it out via brackets, same principle. Only issue is I was using something else as a base, it had an elseif, and I deleted too much.


I now have 'bonus' resources (Wheat, Cows, Sheep, Banana, Deer, Fish) able to be collected, with variable amounts on each tile (same as strategic resources!), and a display showing how many you have of each. Buildings will use these resources to provide extra yield; For example, I'm planning for a Granary to use up a Wheat resource, but be far more attractive than it is now.

 

[hbar]

So ... 1.31 isn't coming out tomorrow, then?

 

[Valkrionn]

Not tomorrow, no. Tomorrow I likely won't be on the computer at all, during the day. Been working on the small mod at school.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

In other words, 1.31 will come some day. And that some day is somewhere in the future.
But we should not get our hopes up too much.

Fair enough. Quality comes before rushed release dates.

 

[Calavente]

I can understand that making mini-mods for ciV is more interesting that perfecting a patch for RifE..
I mean : a mini-mod is tiny, you are making new things, exploring the possibilities... and can be done at school... on a mini-laptop
perfecting the patch is hard, takes a lot of time to cross the Ts and dot the Is..., making sure all works as wanted, the code has tons and tons of line...etc. and can't easily be done on a serie of 5min intervalles at school.

But it's not because I understand that I'm not a bit sad to have to wait again... I so hoped to play 1.31 tomorrow evening or at least saturday, with my wife going out with a friend and the little crumpet being taken by my in-laws...

 

[Gravage]

Seriously, what's up with the amount of people guilt tripping Valk lately? He's doing this in his own spare time, to make the game you love that bit better each patch, so let him do it on his own time! And if you say you understand, don't take every oppertunity you get to say how you understand but still are dissapointed.

So Valk, and everyone else on the job of course, great job and take however long you need to finish that patch! I need to finish a game with the amurites anyway

Fireball spam pew pew.

 

[Meldon]

I blame it on human nature. The next step is them saying that you're trying to kiss his *ss XD

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I have a proposal.
Why don't we all settle this like men.


Since we can do nothing but wait for 1.31 to come. How about you all instead come and give me suggestions for my project. That way, I can get it done in time for it come out at the same time as 1.31. Agreed?

 

[Gravage]

I blame it on human nature. The next step is them saying that you're trying to kiss his *ss XD

Even then I'd rather be on the overly optimistic side than on the overly negative side

 

[Jester Fool]

While talking about programming

Hey Valk, what is your favorite language? Not trying to start a debate really, just curious. I personally love C++ and back in the day (circa Apple ][, ][e ) really enjoyed assembly language programming. Ah, those were the days.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hey Valk, what is your favorite language? Not trying to start a debate really, just curious. I personally love C++ and back in the day (circa Apple ][, ][e ) really enjoyed assembly language programming. Ah, those were the days.

As yet, C++. I've got C++, Java, and Python under my belt. Learning Lua.

 

[Meldon]

I'm taking a class on HTML right now, and I want to get started on XML and Lua by summertime

 

[Valkrionn]

Just popping in to point out that the crash for spanish-language XP is fixed.

http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?4818-Civ-5-Patch-Notes