Civ 6 diplomacy is the same as civ 5 vanilla

[rreebb]

Orchestrating AI wars. Yes, it was more manipulation than diplomacy.

I wonder how Deity players will wreak havoc among Civ6 AIs seeing as they can't pay them to fight each other for 3gpt anymore... in general I'm quite hyped to see Civ5 Deity players cope with the highest Civ6 difficulty for the first time.

 

[Acken]

Joint wars are done through trading.
In the same lets play we saw a trade of 1 gold for a relic.

There's not much more to say.

And in the end I think aggressive AI are a good thing. Stable games are boring. But I think in that case it should be somewhat reflected by the diplo modifiers.

 

[rreebb]

There's also a paranoid hidden agenda which can cause some issues.

That (and other posts in this thread) sounds like it should be possible in every game to be friends with every AI, never having to go to war or defend yourself. I submit that that's not what Civ is about.

 

[Mort_Q]

I'm sure they have thick enough skin to handle it.

Is that what you normally say to people whom you respect that you insult?

That I insult? Where did that come from?

I'm no game developer, but I have followed the development of a few different games, and I've seen the crap that people post. Professionals can't take that kind of stuff personally.

They know, as you and I both do, that any one game can not be everything to everybody.

They know that design decisions that are not popular with a vocal group are not bugs.

They know that the internet is full of weenies.

 

[rreebb]

Professionals can't take that kind of stuff personally.

And yet they often do. After all, they're only human.

Even George Lucas took that stuff personally, apparently

They know that the internet is full of weenies.

And that gives people the right to be one?

 

[stiiknafuulia]

In the Kongo game, Greece was 'unfriendly' towards Marbozir despite him having something like +15 total positive modifiers with them... Granted that it was after a war with Greece, but then shouldn't the numbers have reflected that? It's just a weird and fuzzy system if numbers have no direct correlation to AI attitude (or only a shaky one). And that war happening in the first place was a major bummer. Maybe on Deity it should be possible, but a Civ going to war with you when you've cozied up to to them all-game-long on Prince? That just renders all your efforts useless, meaning that you might as well not bother and simply conquer them.
I'm starting to be really glad that I aim to play mostly multiplayer in Civ VI... Maybe the AI will be fixed with mods and patches down the line, but it looks like we're in for a rough ride initially.

 

[Mort_Q]

And that gives people the right to be one?

No. But it does temper how you one consciously faces criticism, especially from anonymous sources.

 

[pietro1990]

In the Kongo game, Greece was 'unfriendly' towards Marbozir despite him having something like +15 total positive modifiers with them... Granted that it was after a war with Greece, but then shouldn't the numbers have reflected that? It's just a weird and fuzzy system if numbers have no direct correlation to AI attitude (or only a shaky one). And that war happening in the first place was a major bummer. Maybe on Deity it should be possible, but a Civ going to war with you when you've cozied up to to them all-game-long on Prince? That just renders all your efforts useless, meaning that you might as well not bother and simply conquer them.
I'm starting to be really glad that I aim to play mostly multiplayer in Civ VI... Maybe the AI will be fixed with mods and patches down the line, but it looks like we're in for a rough ride initially.

he declared war although he had +15 positive modifiers greece was really friendly.

But germany asked for a joint war deal and greece just joined he didn't count in the positive modifiers and you good relationship with the deal..

seems a issue with the deal AI. Like in the same lets play buying a relic for one gold. Seems Broken.

 

[Haggbart]

Harsh words from someone who never played the game (presumably) and only watched prerelease LP footage, where evidently even bugs are very vital which certainly will become obsolete before release (trading - bug for instance).

Compared to ciV-vanilla it is a sophisticated diplomatic exchange! (even now) please remember the utterly useless diplo in vanilla ciV - a game that hit the shelves basically broken. Not really a fitting comparison to what I see in CiVI already in this unfinshed state!

And since so many mechanics changed it's just not fair to compare CiVI with BNW. It's not a step back at all, it's a much better base to build upon...
Edit: change from BNW to CiVI paragraph added

This.

I'm pretty confident quite a few of the bugs and erratic behaviour (like the valuation of different things in trade deals) of the AI are allready ironed out or at least will be in a patch or two.

A lot of people felt BNW had too peaceful and predictable AI as well, you can't please everyone.

 

[Manifold]

I have not seen any youtube movies yet, but I know how it was in Civ5 BNW difficulty 6/7 and every other strategic war game: All AI Civs hate me. They can´t live with the fact, that I will win
In Civ 5 if my army was small I was easy loot even for my weak friends. But if I build a strong army from the beginning even Attila did not attack. Also the best way to defend was to give some luxury to convince other Civs to attack each other without my participation. I know this is an ugly playing style but the result fits. So If you don´t want to be backstabed build an army and don´t try do win Otherwise remember that you will be backstabed and be prepared. For me it was ok.

 

[leandrombraz]

I'm not sure but it looks like the only way to make joint wars is through trade, you can't directly ask an AI to declare war on someone like in Civ V, so every joint war is a trade. Considering this, I think the problem might be on the trade system, not on the diplomacy system itself. The AI is accepting some crazy deals and giving questionable value to things (selling too cheap), so I think it's totally possible that Germany bought a joint war from Greece and Greece sold it like it was nothing because trade is messed up, but diplomatically Greece was friendly and wouldn't declare war if it wasn't for the trade system. They asked for peace quite fast after that and though they was unfriendly right after the peace deal, the status changed back to friendly later.

Basically Trade is unbalanced and bugged in this demo. Since Joint War is directly linked to trade, it's equally unbalanced and buggy. Greece just sold a joint war cheap, completely disregarding his relationship with Marbozir. If someone with access to the demo read this, try to buy a joint war of one AI against another AI he is friendly to, see how much they will ask for such a deal.

 

[pietro1990]

I'm not sure but it looks like the only way to make joint wars is through trade, you can't directly ask an AI to declare war on someone like in Civ V, so every joint war is a trade. Considering this, I think the problem might be on the trade system, not on the diplomacy system itself. The AI is accepting some crazy deals and giving questionable value to things (selling too cheap), so I think it's totally possible that Germany bought a joint war from Greece and Greece sold it like it was nothing because trade is messed up, but diplomatically Greece was friendly and wouldn't declare war if it wasn't for the trade system. They asked for peace quite fast after that and though they was unfriendly right after the peace deal, the status changed back to friendly later.

Basically Trade is unbalanced and bugged in this demo. Since Joint War is directly linked to trade, it's equally unbalanced and buggy. Greece just sold a joint war cheap, completely disregarding his relationship with Marbozir. If someone with access to the demo read this, try to buy a joint war of one AI against another AI he is friendly to, see how much they will ask for such a deal.

+1 thats exactly what i was thinxing. Ai doesn't count the positive relationship when AI ask for a trade in joint war

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I fundamentally disagree. There might be problems that require ironing out, to be sure (remember that these press builds were more than a month old prior to the Lets Play videos being released) but Civ6 diplomacy actually appears to combine the best elements of Civ4 and Civ5 diplomacy, with a nice bit of Cassus Belli thrown in for good measure.

I like the fact that aspects of your diplomatic relations are initially hidden, as it forces you to pay more attention to forming closer bonds with these civs (or spying on them).

My only hope is that, in upcoming expansions and/or DLC we will see a return of the concept of State Religion playing a role in early game diplomacy (beyond certain agendas)......a la Civ4. Though I hope its not as instantly overwhelming as it was in Civ4 .

 

[pietro1990]

I fundamentally disagree. There might be problems that require ironing out, to be sure (remember that these press builds were more than a month old prior to the Lets Play videos being released) but Civ6 diplomacy actually appears to combine the best elements of Civ4 and Civ5 diplomacy, with a nice bit of Cassus Belli thrown in for good measure.

I like the fact that aspects of your diplomatic relations are initially hidden, as it forces you to pay more attention to forming closer bonds with these civs (or spying on them).

My only hope is that, in upcoming expansions and/or DLC we will see a return of the concept of State Religion playing a role in early game diplomacy (beyond certain agendas)......a la Civ4. Though I hope its not as instantly overwhelming as it was in Civ4 .

I was hoping that religion would work like civ 4 that you could different religions in one city not just one. And have a state religion just like you mentioned. Makes india ability actually more sence and powerfull.

And i agre civ 6 diplomacy looks better and promising and maybe my title is misleading i am just pointing out a huge bug that gives me flashbacks about civ 5 vanilla backstabs with peacefull leader who has +15 positive modifiers and -5 negative. But i dont thinx its diplomacy that is the problem its the trade system

AI values everything the same a joint war against enemy for 2 gold ok joint war against my best friend ok 2 gold.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

From all I've seen of in-game screens, you can have different religions in one city....just as you could in Civ5. We don't have a concept of State Religion, though, just Majority Religion. Hopefully that is something they can work on over upcoming expansions and DLC.

 

[Galbias]

Is this some kind of joke. Vanilla civ 5 diplomacy was pacts of cooperation and secrecy. they didn't even have civilopedia entries. The only information you got was the AI popping up and saying random stuff. The system was so utterly broken it was fundamentally rebuilt AFTER RELEASE.

Look at Marbozirs Kongo game. He actually sends out delegations and doesn't accidentally declare a surprise war early. He has full info on Greek and American attitudes except for hidden agendas and exploits their agendas to gain 2 dofs. Greece stays friendly even after he forwards settles. In civ 6 when the AI pops up to say something it is about their agenda and can gaina vital clure about their hidden agenda. Marbozir already knows Pericles hidden agenda by paying attention and watching modifiers. Civ 6 diplomacy needs some bug fixes and modifier weights but the system is there. Civ 5 diplomacy was so fundamentally broken the system wasn't worth saving. There is no comparison.

And then Greece declares a joint war despite having a mountain of positive modifiers. If anything, Greece was the one forward settling too, but I guess you can just blame whatever logic the system uses for forward settling detection because that and other games have shown that it's pretty wonky, and the war can kind of be handwaved by the fact that it was probably Classical era at that point.

 

[Magil]

I'd like to believe the diplomacy will be fixed before release, but honestly it's more of a "hope". I believe there's at least a decent chance they won't get it right, because we know that the last press build had similar problems with the AI not valuing items in trade correctly, which seems to be the primary problem here. It is absolutely something that should be fixed for a release version of the game though, you don't push the game through with this kind of silliness intact. Firaxis's track record in addressing this kind of issue promptly is not that stellar, unfortunately.

The secondary problem seems to be the AI being way too eager to declare Joint War on someone they are friendly with. I have to believe that this is not right, and the AI should not backstab its allies for a little gold or a luxury (unless it's a mercenary leader programmed to act like that, probably not Pericles or Victoria).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

As with everything, I will reserve final judgement until I see the release version getting played (already pre-ordered it, so will get it regardless).

 

[Furycrab]

I believe there's at least a decent chance they won't get it right

No matter what they do, someone is going to be unhappy with how they think the AI should behave.

For example, for me, if two ais go in a joint war against me, as long as one AI had reasons to hate me enough and the other didn't have a Declaration of Friendship with me... I'm fine with it. It's not wild and unpredictable, it's one AI who hated you doing the first move and getting the neutral parties involved. To someone else, the idea might be sacrilege and they should never go to war if they have mostly positive modifiers with you. So no matter what, someone isn't going to be happy with how the AI behaved.

Have we actually seen the AI go in joint wars breaking DOF or just a few positive modifiers?

 

[Magil]

For example, for me, if two ais go in a joint war against me, as long as one AI had reasons to hate me enough and the other didn't have a Declaration of Friendship with me... I'm fine with it. It's not wild and unpredictable, it's one AI who hated you doing the first move and getting the neutral parties involved. To someone else, the idea might be sacrilege and they should never go to war if they have mostly positive modifiers with you. So no matter what, someone isn't going to be happy with how the AI behaved.

Have we actually seen the AI go in joint wars breaking DOF or just a few positive modifiers?

That's understating the situation. What we saw in Marbozir was Greece having a overwhelmingly positive modifier when he declared war. It wasn't "just a few". You would think that would factor into the AI's decision-making. Then there's Victoria, who declared war on him in an earlier game only one or two turns after he entered a Joint War with Victoria. It's irrational.

In any case, my suspicion is that this is actually due to the fact that the AI is not correctly evaluating the Joint War trade option. It seems very eager to engage in a Joint War.