civ 6 is a good game with issues.

I think FXS's best play is to double down on leaders.
I hope they dont. Considering the current weight of leaders on the design is difficult to think on ways to make CIV even more a Cult of Personality game.
Firaxis try too hard to make "memorable" leaders that they become literally cartoons.

Something feel wrong when the new "civs" are presented like "**figure** leads ***civ** on CIV6....." and when there are as many civs with alternative leaders as there are leaders with alternative civs, at this point the civs are accesories for the leaders.

Famous figures or not, that is not the only relevant design element for historical based 4x games, but I think CIV already overdo with them. No wonder Mao and Stalin were on CIV, they fit pretty well with the embodiment of a nation on their tyrants that CIV design is so fond.
 
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I hope they dont. Considering the current weight of leaders on the design is difficult to think on ways to make CIV even more a Cult of Personality game.
Firaxis try too hard to make "memorable" leaders that they become literally cartoons.

Something feel wrong when the new "civs" are presented like "**figure** leads ***civ** on CIV6....." and when there are as many civs with alternative leaders as there are leaders with alternative civs, at this point the civs are accesories for the leaders.

Famous figures or not, that is not the only relevant design element for historical based 4x games, but I think CIV already overdo with them. No wonder Mao and Stalin were on CIV, they fit pretty well with the embodiment of a nation on their tyrants that CIV design is so fond.
Leaders are important because it's not fun playing against a faceless, nameless, impersonal AI. Civ is first and foremost a single-player game, after all. Civ6's problem is that it's not hard to see past the smoke and mirrors because all civs act virtually identically except for their manic agendas. Civ7 needs to make the leaders act more like individuals--more like they did in Civ5, for instance. It also needs to deepen diplomacy. (For the record, I don't like the Eleanor/Kublai gimmick as it cheapens the value of leaders as the face of their civilization. I could do without alternate leaders, too.)

In academic history, it's well past time to move past the Great Man theory, but in popularizing history I can appreciate the value of charismatic historical figures. They're appealing, and they make history more than a long list of names, facts, and dates. If people learn more about the Caucasus because of Tamar of Georgia, let them have Tamar of Georgia.
 
On the Leader question, let me interject a bit of Historiography here. . .

History, and especially history written since the 18th century, has always emphasized one of two characteristics: either it was a history of the Deeds of Great Men, or it was an attempt to identify, explain and analyze the Great Movements of people as a general mass. The former was almost the entirety of history written before the late 19th century, the latter has been the dominant 'strain' in the 20th century (and sometimes called 'Marxist' since Karl was one of the first 'analyzers' of social movements). The latter also has led to a lot of the transformation of historical writing by bringing in information/input from non-historical disciplines like archeology, climate studies, economics, sociology, and other sciences and near-sciences (or 'dismal sciences' in the case of economics). This has resulted in a host of 'sub-fields' such as Economic History, Social/Cultural History (which has come to nearly dominate American History) Environmental History, etc. Interestingly, 4X games almost by definition have to encompass many or most of these in some form, simply because of the '4X' definition of the game genre.
As usual with trends in any discipline, I think the best of modern history combines elements of both the basic forms: detailing the effect of the Great People in the context of their environment and the social, economic, environmental, political, etc strictures and pressures on it and them, like the reprint of Red Cloud's autobiography some years ago that put that Great Man firmly in the context of what was happening to the Lakotah and the Great Plains environment during his lifetime. No (Historical) Man is an Island, indeed!

We are now seeing these two historiographical 'trends' reflected very specifically in 4X historical games. Civ is firmly in the Great Man/Person camp: Great Leaders, Great People, personalized Governors, individual animated missionaries, traders, builders, settlers, archeologists, etc. Humankind, on the other hand, has no 'people' in it: no leaders, no generals, no builders, no settlers, no trade or religious units at all. The famous "Invisible Hand" of history governs a lot of what is happening: Factions/Civs Influence each other, your religion spreads (or fails to) as a result of Civics or Religious Tenets you adopt, and you change your entire Faction/Civilization each Age (usually) without regard to who is leading it or how (government/social structure) it is being led.

Frankly, I'd like to see each game combine the two basic trends more, but in the interest of competition in the game market and differentiating the games and the way they play, I can see why they would not: right now, at least as far as I've seen from the Pre-Release Humankind hints, they will play and 'feel' very different as games, and that's probably better for both game companies. And note that the third new competitor in this market, Old World, takes the Great Person right down to the individual family, ancestors and descendants by limiting the 4X to strictly Ancient - early Medieval Eras when families and dynasties were, in fact, paramount historically.

That doesn't mean there aren't individual game mechanics that could benefit in the games from shifting their emphasis: Humankind's tactical lay-out battles scream for modifiers from the effect of a Great (or not-so-great) General, while , IMHO, Civ's religious system would be much better implemented with more 'invisible' means of spreading and consequences beyond the gamer/government's control - which would also reduce what is now an entirely separate game of Missionary Invasion/Apostle Defense in too many games that simply distracts from everything else unless you are specifically trying for a Religious Victory.
 
Why is this even a point of discussion?

It has always been this way from the dawn of civ games. What am I missing?

I don’t recall previous civs having civ/leader traits that were literally useless unless you spawned in tne right terrain
 
I don’t recall previous civs having civ/leader traits that were literally useless unless you spawned in tne right terrain
From Civ5:
Brazil: Brazilwood Camp (requires Jungle)
Celts: Faith from unimproved Forest.
Dutch: Polder (requires Marsh or Flood Plains)
Inca: Free movement on Hills; Terrace Farm (requires Hills)
Iroquois: Forest and Jungle act as roads
Morocco: Kasbah (requires Desert)

You were saying?
 
I don’t recall previous civs having civ/leader traits that were literally useless unless you spawned in tne right terrain
I agree that Civ 6 sometimes took it a little too far, looking at you Ethiopia, but in itself it's not entirely a bad thing.
I mean how else do you make the Inca unique unless they are the civ that builds itself around mountains?
 
I agree that Civ 6 sometimes took it a little too far, looking at you Ethiopia, but in itself it's not entirely a bad thing.
I mean how else do you make the Inca unique unless they are the civ that builds itself around mountains?
Personally the civs that do interesting things with terrain are my favorites--Russia, Inca, Mali, etc.
 
I agree that Civ 6 sometimes took it a little too far, looking at you Ethiopia, but in itself it's not entirely a bad thing.
I mean how else do you make the Inca unique unless they are the civ that builds itself around mountains?

You can make them unique without making them severely disadvantaged if no mountains are around

Not everything needs to revolve around yields and bucket filling, and it’s a big part of why Civ6 is the way is that it’s kind of based only around that, with some board game mechanics layered on top

I’ve played several games now with only the base game on. No modes, no loyalty mechanics or ages or any of the other layers of tired board game crap and it is hilariously better as both a Civ title and a game overall. The AI is still straightjacketed by 1UPT and warfare is still excruciating but the rest of the game is dramatically improved and the AI isn’t doing stupid stuff like not improving luxuries or whatever.

I guess this explains why my initial impression of this game was so favorable.

Now I just need that mod that increases stacking and movement and this thing might actually work out ok

Hilarious. A real world Schlimmbesserung. Except I guess not because the objective was not improvement but monetization
 
I don’t like the terrain-based abilities because they make me want to re-roll my starts way too often in order to get a more optimal set-up. I also think they’re mostly less interesting than other abilities.
 
I don’t like the terrain-based abilities because they make me want to re-roll my starts way too often in order to get a more optimal set-up. I also think they’re mostly less interesting than other abilities.

I feel the same way, but I don't think it means that terrain dependent civs are the problem. The real issue is that civ actively punishes you for exploring rather than plonking down a city on turn 1 and hoping for the best. There are few things more frustrating than spawning on a coast or desert (or costal desert) as the Maya and then finding a perfect settlement location a few hexes away after you have already founded a city.

For Civ 7 I hope they either take a page out of Humankind's book and give us a tribal stage or give us game mechanics that actually let us overcome and adapt to poor terrain.
 
I feel the same way, but I don't think it means that terrain dependent civs are the problem. The real issue is that civ actively punishes you for exploring rather than plonking down a city on turn 1 and hoping for the best. There are few things more frustrating than spawning on a coast or desert (or costal desert) as the Maya and then finding a perfect settlement location a few hexes away after you have already founded a city.

For Civ 7 I hope they either take a page out of Humankind's book and give us a tribal stage or give us game mechanics that actually let us overcome and adapt to poor terrain.

Reroll starts being SOP for a lot of players is a sign that maybe some tweaking is needed.
 
Reroll starts being SOP for a lot of players is a sign that maybe some tweaking is needed.

Another possibility, which I've been using for some time now, is a combination of Mods:
Nomad Start
Faster Starting Settlers
Extended Initial Vision

The combination allows you to spot better positions within a larger radius of your nominal 'start' and get your Settler to one of them faster: it gives a much larger range of possibilities to overcome a wretched starting position, even if it doesn't approach the flexibility of a complete "Neolithic Era" that Humankind has.
 
Another possibility, which I've been using for some time now, is a combination of Mods:
Nomad Start
Faster Starting Settlers
Extended Initial Vision

The combination allows you to spot better positions within a larger radius of your nominal 'start' and get your Settler to one of them faster: it gives a much larger range of possibilities to overcome a wretched starting position, even if it doesn't approach the flexibility of a complete "Neolithic Era" that Humankind has.

I was actually thinking about those very mods!!
 
This is why video games have difficulty levels. Your core game has to work first though
Absolutely, I think comparing this to chess is a good way to explain this. When playing chess against a computer you both start with the same resources. If you set it to harder, the chess plays with a more advanced AI. At some point yes, it is unbeatable for even the most advanced players but if that is the case you just tone it down. Granted Civ is a lot more complex than chess for an AI to learn but the point still stands. Plus, with Firaxis' history of making AI, I doubt we will see for a very, very long time an AI the is anywhere near "unbeatable".
 
Absolutely, I think comparing this to chess is a good way to explain this. When playing chess against a computer you both start with the same resources. If you set it to harder, the chess plays with a more advanced AI. At some point yes, it is unbeatable for even the most advanced players but if that is the case you just tone it down. Granted Civ is a lot more complex than chess for an AI to learn but the point still stands. Plus, with Firaxis' history of making AI, I doubt we will see for a very, very long time an AI the is anywhere near "unbeatable".

Nobody here is asking for an unbeatable AI.

We would be happy with just an AI that can use ALL its own game systems.
 
Nobody here is asking for an unbeatable AI.

We would be happy with just an AI that can use ALL its own game systems.

This is why I haven't bought the new frontier pass, I didn't see the use of additional game mechanics since the AI is so disconnected from the game. Sometimes, they have so much buffed up numbers (Kongo with culture is plain stupid), I've revealed the map with Firetuner and there was no way he could make that amount of culture, no district adjacency, no great work, less cities than me yet he gets more culture because of the difficulty setting. It's so dumb that I had to go conquer Kongo (which had zero army, offered zero resistance) and won a culture victory.

I've played multiplayer games, and where I get crushed by tanks, I at least put some units to block their way so he wastes at least 10 more turns than if there was none. People are also talking about how Civilization is a more complex game than Chess, but I completely disagree. In chess, every move is important. In civ, there are plenty of suboptimal moves that result either in a faster or slower win, but a single bad move shouldn't make you lose the game! Currently, the AI makes 50+ bad moves, this is just how disconnected the AI is.
 
People are also talking about how Civilization is a more complex game than Chess, but I completely disagree. In chess, every move is important. In civ, there are plenty of suboptimal moves that result either in a faster or slower win, but a single bad move shouldn't make you lose the game! Currently, the AI makes 50+ bad moves, this is just how disconnected the AI is.
That's why it's harder for the AI, you can't determine easily from a computer perspective if one move will get you closer or further from victory.

Thinking of it, and speaking of disconnected AI, the gameplay mechanisms themselves are somehow disconnected, which is both IMO a pro and a con for the game, on one hand you can partially ignore mechanisms you don't like and still win the game, on the other, well, it does feel disconnected, and surely does not help the AI to follow a coherent strategy.
 
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