Civ 7 captures the Zeitgeist and that is why I hate it

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depner72

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As any number of people have pointed out, we live in an Age of Disruption, and Civ 7 disrupts -- for no apparent reason other than wanting to be disruptive -- the things that are good about Civilization. That is why I hate it and this is why I agree with this video.
In fact, I cannot help but think of the Pet Shop Boy's West End Girls.

Faces on posters, too many choices
If, when, why, what? How much have you got?
Have you got it, do you get it
If so, how often?
Which do you choose
A hard or soft option?
(How much do you need?)

It presents way too many unnecessary choices without providing enough information. It is the Paradox of Choice come alive in a video game. Any thoughts?
 
If you dont like the game that's fine but the changes to ages and civ swapping/leader choice aren't for "no apparent reason", theyre for the clear and reasonable purpose of capturing the early game feeling of exploration/stakes as a way of avoiding the mid-late game slog and algorithmic progression where you hit a certain stride that needs to be maintained with increasingly extensive/decreasingly impactful micromanagement until the end. Whether you think that was an actual problem or whether they succeeded about it you can disagree, but the rationale for the design decisions are clearly articulated.

As for there being "too many options" I really dont understand this complaint. Civ7 is nowhere near approaching the level of choice of e.g. nations or unit/building composition as other successful strategy games like paradox gsgs or total war games -- unlike in those games, theres very clear paths to specific victory conditions that are explicitly associated with yield types and tech tree paths. The changes to the overall gameplay loop, i.e. ages and civ switches, do force some high-stakes choices on the player, but I don't see how that's somehow necessarily a bad thing or in any way "overwhelming." In almost every game I've played so far, choices vary between more-optimable and sub-optimal but workable. Most choices in the game aren't even mutually exclusive (you can play a science-focused civ, culture-focused leader, and very reasonably focus on military and commercial victories instead). The ones that are mutually exclusive, i.e. civs & leaders, are not really all that different from previous games choice of civs, and because there are less choices in each category taken on its own (only more in the way of combos), I don't see how overwhelming it could be for previous fans of the series.

If anything I think a far more legitimate complaint is that there's not ENOUGH choices or customization -- not enough options for civs to transition while maintaining historically-themed immersion, not enough leaders to represent the variety of civs, not enough game rules, not enough map types, etc etc. I really don't see how anyone could be such a big fan of the civ series to hate the major gameplay changes, but feel that the number of choices is so much more overwhelming than in previous games, especially because Civ7 is particularly forgiving in letting you "correct" your former choices by reorienting your civ choice to match the strategy youve actually followed vs the one you imagined following at initial civ selection. In some ways probably TOO forgiving and choices end up feeling somewhat low stakes, because it's a question of suboptimal choice rather than an actually bad choice. But in some ways previous civ games felt tedious in that the choices you make in civ selection, strategy, choice of production and wars and diplomacy, etc., could be offset and made to feel arbitrary by very specific chokepoints that could lose you the game because you fall behind of pacing -- general wonky irrational AI, narrowly losing out on a wonder that sets back your production and yields and your overall pace, choosing to rush crucial buildings for victory instead of money to let you upgrade units and then losing a war in a way that effectively means defeat even though it's only midgame, etc. And none of these were fatal problems for me or most other big civ fans in previous games, but they were frustrating and didn't feel like fun challenges so much as arbitrary bottlenecks that minimized the impact of the fun strategic challenges.
 
I don't think that really captures the issue. I think for many of the people who aren't happy with the direction, it's because the game design is immersion breaking. When you can have Harriet Tubman of Rome fighting Napoleon of the Khmer I think that's just too far out there for the type of player that cares about immersion. Then I think the whole legacy point system pushes the player into playing specific ways. While you don't technically have to engage with the system except in the modern age, you're gimping yourself if you ignore it. Want to play peaceful and tall in the antiquity age? No military points for you in the exploration age. Don't want to build wonders? No culture points.

It ultimately leads to a situation where, as the player, you can really feel and see the guiding hand of the game designer pushing your decisions and I think that just highlights how this franchise which was very much a open-ended sandbox style design has gotten a little bit more theme parky with every new version. That's just not for everyone.
 
the game design is immersion breaking. When you can have Harriet Tubman of Rome fighting Napoleon of the Khmer I think that's just too far out there for the type of player that cares about immersion.
I initially felt this way, but now I don't see it as any different from competing against Teddy Roosevelt in 4000BC. The leaders are essentially the players in the game. They are "meta" and above the game itself. It's always been this way. It's just that, traditionally, the leaders were associated with historical leaders.

I enjoy how each age bring a new civilization. I imagine my Roman people slowly merging and culturally becoming the Spanish world power (all behind the scenes, of course). With that change comes a change in culture and social policy. The one militaristic people now value culture and religion. Eventually, they lose power and over a few centuries have become Mexican, fully embracing their religious heritage and identify with their past in the form of archiving artifacts.

The fact that my leader avatar is Augustus means as little as if it were my own real name. The leader names are flavour text for particular personalities and personas.

I believe the main issue is simply that there are not currently enough leaders and civilizations to allow for those who desire a fully historical game. Maybe someday.
 
I initially felt this way, but now I don't see it as any different from competing against Teddy Roosevelt in 4000BC. The leaders are essentially the players in the game. They are "meta" and above the game itself. It's always been this way. It's just that, traditionally, the leaders were associated with historical leaders.

I enjoy how each age bring a new civilization. I imagine my Roman people slowly merging and culturally becoming the Spanish world power (all behind the scenes, of course). With that change comes a change in culture and social policy. The one militaristic people now value culture and religion. Eventually, they lose power and over a few centuries have become Mexican, fully embracing their religious heritage and identify with their past in the form of archiving artifacts.

The fact that my leader avatar is Augustus means as little as if it were my own real name. The leader names are flavour text for particular personalities and personas.

I believe the main issue is simply that there are not currently enough leaders and civilizations to allow for those who desire a fully historical game. Maybe someday.
Yeah I personally am not bothered by it but I can understand why some people might be and I think those players opinions are just as valid.
 
Yeah I personally am not bothered by it but I can understand why some people might be and I think those players opinions are just as valid.

My issue is much less the leaders, and not at all the civ transitions themselves (in some ways the transitions and the general narrative arc are much MORE historically immersive), but that I at least want a more "plausible historical throughline." But that's more just because I want the option for flavor and aesthetic reasons, it doesnt take me out of the game because historical immersion/simulation isn't something I've ever expected or even wanted from these games.

Personally the history element of civ I enjoy is the historical flavor and themes, and its fun to have a gameified version of a very simplified narrative of the "broad arc" of human history. I like that civ is goofy and gamey, playing as George Washington in ancient times or Hammurabi with aircraft carriers is part of the silly charm. When I want something leaning more in the direction of "historical accuracy", I play paradox gsgs or something to that effect. To me civ has always been more like a history themed costume party with a fun/interesting mix of period props than anything attempting to be a recreation.

That's not whatsoever to suggest people who expect and enjoy historical immersion from the series are wrong or playing wrong or anything. But, for those fans who get that from the game, it is unclear to me what the standard of historicity is. I completely understand the civ changes and civ/leader discrepencies being immersion breaking in the sense that, while playing a video game, you are invested in these things as your (broadly speaking) "character", and when the unity of that character is either initially unconvincing or forced to be broken mid-game, I absolutely see how that can be jarring and unfun. Especially when it's been introduced in a series you love where that wasn't a problem before. That and many other objections to the changes in the games formula I understand, and I share some of those gripes to various degrees. But the "historically inaccurate" thing honestly has me stumped.
 
"Making lemons out of lemonade"


There are quite a few more hostile videos than positive ones - unless the youtube algorithm feeds you more of them when you watch one (which is doubtful).
The point about war ending automatically because he changed eras, reminded me of how badly war resolution is handled in Ara (or was when I last played that).

Also: Persia -->Inca is :vomit:
 
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"Making lemons out of lemonade"


There are quite a few more hostile videos than positive ones - unless the youtube algorithm feeds you more of them when you watch one (which is doubtful).
The point about war ending automatically because he changed eras, reminded me of how badly war resolution is handled in Ara (or was when I last played that).

Also: Persia -->Inca is :vomit:
The point about YouTube algorithms is not doubtful at all, it's the real issue. A lot of modern political misunderstanding now are caused by social media algorithms feeding people with content with similar views. My YouTube contains mostly positive ones.

Also: content creators try to catch viewer attention as much as possible. That's why they are either "A complete disaster" (watch to join the hate train) or "You're playing the game wrong if you miss those tips" (catching players with FOMO)
 
If that was an explanation (a few youtubers trying to be hyperbolic to fish for clicks), you wouldn't have 50% negative views on Steam.
That's part of the explanation. Negative reviews could come from genuinely disliking the game, but they also could come from "hate train" caused by social media. They could even be caused by bots - in the recent couple of years several media projects were review bombed by bots for "wokeness" and I assume Civ7 could be viewed as such by those bots' owners.
 
Personally from what could I see from glancing at a huge number of steam reviews, huge part of them is complaining only about the UI/performance, with significant number complaining about price and DLC polity - quality ratio, so both types of reviews don't criticise the game itself.

However, there is also a big number of reviews which do, indeed, criticise game's design and mechanics themselves. It's hard for me to estimate their share right now, but personally I'd guess that if civ7 released with decent UI and no price/DLC controversy, it'd have like 75 - 80% positive on Steam?

Which, keep in mind, would still be *a lot* negative reviews regarding the game design itself for a civ game - a lot of the games which have been considered failures in the long term have got like 75% on steam - that seeming paradox happens because Steam doesn't look at the "score" of the individual reveiws, just yes or no, and it can especially happen when negative reviews are very harsh while positive reviews contain a lot of mixed feeelings, only lukewarm positivity and major complaints, so the "real" reception is like 5/10 instead of 7,5/10.

That being said, there is also a lot of games with scores like that which have still achieved great success long term and redeemed themselves.
I honestly suspect that civ5 could have received similar score if it were released on fully fledged steam in 2010, I remember its release being incredibly chaotic. This game was very barebones, unbalanced and messy on release, with diplomacy in particular being intolerable dumpster fire - stuff like all AIs on the map erratically hating you and attacking you all the time with no predictable way to befriend them. It was essentially a war game with very little else to do, with catastrophically bad AI even for the usual 1UPT standards. The first DLC was offered for free instead of being paid like planned as a part of the appeasement policy lol. Civ6 had fantastic, smooth release by comparision.
 
There's some definite flaws to the game, and for an average person, I can definitely imagine it can be a real challenge. If you've watched 50 hours of preview content, you know where to navigate the game, heck you even know that if pantheon X is available you can just claim it without worrying about what else is in the list. The UI annoyances are there, but you also know how to find Sukritact or TCS' mods to help out.

And yeah, obviously the biggest changes to the series, ages and de-coupled leaders, if that's something you don't like, nobody will really convince you otherwise. Initially I was taken aback, but in the end, I think I like it. It's nice to be able to get that full re-focus at a couple points in your campaign, and you have the choice whether to continue on your historical path or shift course. I do think among casual players, in the end, that's going to a quite positive bonus. I mean, a casual scroll of the civ 6 reddit and I'd say at least half of those "greatest starting location" screenshots are using either the Heroes and Legends, or Secret Societies modes in 6, and those are way more a-historical and break the game than any of the civ 7 stuff we have. The average civ fan I think will be more than happy to run Mississippian->Songhai if that's what your land calls for. So once they get through those initial issues, I think it will turn back more positive.
 
Want to play peaceful and tall in the antiquity age? No military points for you in the exploration age. Don't want to build wonders? No culture points.

So don't.

I think you're severely overestimating the value of those points. If you're not playing a culture-focused game, one or two cultural attribute points aren't going to make much of a difference for you, and +2 culture on all wonders is arguably not worth taking even if you do unlock it.

Also, obligatory reminder that "tall" is just a euphemism for "not building an empire", both in the game and in real history.

There are quite a few more hostile videos than positive ones - unless the youtube algorithm feeds you more of them when you watch one (which is doubtful).

There are not, and YouTube absolutely one hundred percent sure does that. YouTube is like "oh hey you watched this video, so you probably enjoy that kind of content, here's three more". Remember, YouTube's goal is to get you to watch more videos so they make more money from ads (if the product is free, you are the product). It's only logical that they'll recommend content that has previously kept you watching.
 
Gaming YouTube has also the problem of having outbursts of extremely negative bias recently, on several occasions I have noticed certain games having nearly exclusively negative coverage on youtube and then checking them on other sites and them having mixed to mildly positive reviews lol. The most recent example has been Veilguard, which has like 70% positive Steam reviews (given the amount of only lukewarm positives I'd say it translates to like 5/10, which is also my own opinion of the game - I admit its writing is kinda lame). And then you got to Youtube and it's genuinely very difficult to find the popular videos with mixed sentiment, it's all total destruction 0/10 worst game in history.

Sadly, I think it often happens because of "anti woke" (translation: homophoboc sexist racist) crowd, which jumps at any game or movie which has legitimate problems while also having any/too much LGBT or non white or female people on the front. I suspect this even happened to civ7 to a small degree, considering how riled up those psychos were by Amina, Buganda and Tubman. Of course this doesn't change the fact the vast majority of negative sentiment is sensible, from worst UI ever through price tag/DLC policy to legit criticisms or tastes regarding game design.
 
Personally from what could I see from glancing at a huge number of steam reviews, huge part of them is complaining only about the UI/performance, with significant number complaining about price and DLC polity - quality ratio, so both types of reviews don't criticise the game itself.

Criticism on UI, performance and price are absolutely criticisms of the game itself.

Sadly, I think it often happens because of "anti woke" (translation: homophoboc sexist racist) crowd, which jumps at any game or movie which has legitimate problems while also having any/too much LGBT or non white or female people on the front. I suspect this even happened to civ7 to a small degree, considering how riled up those psychos were by Amina, Buganda and Tubman. Of course this doesn't change the fact the vast majority of negative sentiment is sensible, from worst UI ever through price tag/DLC policy to legit criticisms or tastes regarding game design.
I think you're vastly exaggerating this. I have seen very, very few "I dislike Tubman because she's black" comments, even when reading between the lines. I have seen far more "I dislike Tubman because she's stretching the definition of 'leader' within the game" type comments. You're being disingenuous by singling out Tubman, because I have seen similar comments for Benjamin Franklin, Machiavelli and Confucius.
 
I think you're vastly exaggerating this. I have seen very, very few "I dislike Tubman because she's black" comments, even when reading between the lines. I have seen far more "I dislike Tubman because she's stretching the definition of 'leader' within the game" type comments. You're being disingenuous by singling out Tubman, because I have seen similar comments for Benjamin Franklin, Machiavelli and Confucius.
That’s not really how racism works, right? It often is manifested in subtle prejudices one has either consciously or unconsciously. People who hold racists thoughts very rarely declare themselves racist, outside of the most deplorable number who join hate groups. But even those individuals probably see themselves as heroes (in their twisted minds).

On the Machiavelli thing, there was nowhere near the same level of vitriol and negativity surrounding any of those male leaders as there was about Tubman.
 
I think you're vastly exaggerating this.
Visit an (largely) anti-woke video game forum such as neogaf, and you will see that this is no exaggeration. Any game with a black character in a traditionally white role will trigger cries of "DEI", "WOKE", and worse. Watch the trailer for Naughty Dog's new game Intergalactic and imagine what someone might say about that woman. Now imagine saying much worse things. That is what people say.

There is a saying: "what you see is all there is". You haven't seen it, so it must not exist. Trust me, it exists.
 
That’s not really how racism works, right? It often is manifested in subtle prejudices one has either consciously or unconsciously. People who hold racists thoughts very rarely declare themselves racist, outside of the most deplorable number who join hate groups. But even those individuals probably see themselves as heroes (in their twisted minds).

On the Machiavelli thing, there was nowhere near the same level of vitriol and negativity surrounding any of those male leaders as there was about Tubman.
So subtle that it can, and often is, imagined to exist where it doesn't. As with many other releases, the 1% of whackos are being blamed for 90% of the negativity. It doesn't work like that.

Visit an (largely) anti-woke video game forum such as neogaf, and you will see that this is no exaggeration. Any game with a black character in a traditionally white role will trigger cries of "DEI", "WOKE", and worse. Watch the trailer for Naughty Dog's new game Intergalactic and imagine what someone might say about that woman. Now imagine saying much worse things. That is what people say.

There is a saying: "what you see is all there is". You haven't seen it, so it must not exist. Trust me, it exists.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I said it's vastly exaggerated, and in no way comes close to explaining Civ VII's mediocre reviews. A few losers on Neogaf aren't submitting thousands upon thousands of negative reviews for Civ VII, nor are they responsible for the at-best lukewarm reception from professional gaming outlets.
 
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