Civ 7's Victory Paths can Use Some Work to Feel Less Western Specific

[Zaarin]

Moreover, while relics were common and prominent in the Middle Ages, they’ve never had a place of centrality in Christianity

Erm...what? The pilgrimage industry reached such a fever pitch in the Late Middle Ages that the Holy See could not keep up with verifying relics, many false claims were made, and the entire concept was tarnished with the concept of charlatanism. Toning down pilgrimages, saintly cults, and relics was one of the many tasks of the Tridentine Reforms on account of it being one of the chief fuels for the Protestant fire. Even so, relics are still important to Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

At any rate, sacred objects are part of every religion. What's Western-centric about the Exploration culture victory is that not every major religion is proselytizing, and not every proselytizing religion is equally proselytizing (Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam are pretty unique in their degree of proselytizing).

 

[Krikkit1]

Erm...what? The pilgrimage industry reached such a fever pitch in the Late Middle Ages that the Holy See could not keep up with verifying relics, many false claims were made, and the entire concept was tarnished with the concept of charlatanism. Toning down pilgrimages, saintly cults, and relics was one of the many tasks of the Tridentine Reforms on account of it being one of the chief fuels for the Protestant fire. Even so, relics are still important to Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

At any rate, sacred objects are part of every religion. What's Western-centric about the Exploration culture victory is that not every major religion is proselytizing, and not every proselytizing religion is equally proselytizing (Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam are pretty unique in their degree of proselytizing).

I do like the idea of Relics from other “Achievements”
ie Cities Razed (while your Capital has the religion)
Wonders Built
City with population >X
City with X different resources
City with X copies of a resource
Captured city this age
Annexed IP
City Founded this age
Religious focused Town
Suzereins
Other religions in your civ
Sanctions
Spy activities
Endeavors

(all requiring your Religion ?and a Temple? present when applicable)

 

[sTAPler27]

While we are at it, can this western game about imperialism stop being about imperialism.

Seriously though, welcome inclusion but is there a historical neutral? Particularly in a game literally built around imperialism. All aren’t equal in conquest and history, it’s hard built into the game.

It's called Civilization, the majority of Civs in the first game weren't even western. Military conquest is 1 victory out of many.

 

[sTAPler27]

The name is obviously of Far Eastern origin. Firaxis could have called it something like “Reliquary” or “Grail Quest” to emphasize the Great Works, or “Evangelism”, “Great Commission”, or “Proselytization” to emphasize the importance of spreading Religion. Instead, they went with an Eastern term.

The names are but the gameplay isn't.

 

[sTAPler27]

I'm just not sure how the culture victories really have anything to do with culture, the resource - I am very happy that the culture victory has to do with actual cultural accomplishments though. I was working on designing a civ in antiquity and wanted it to be heavily themed around culture until I realised that none of these buffs would actually help the era's victory condition (build wonders). It's a pretty variable series of paths that first demands production for wonders, then focuses on conversions (all reliquary beliefs demand city conversions), then exploring for artifacts. Am I missing something here? Improving your ability to research civics isn't that powerful for these paths, is it?

Antiquity kind of requires culture because a couple of them are locked behind culture but a lot of them are unlocked through techs, this not even including that you can just conquer them. For Exploration you do need culture to expand your religion but outside of that your more or less just moving around missionaries you built or bought with gold. The last one just requires you to unlock the civic that gives you explorers and museums, the artifacts themselves grant culture but beyond that that's about it. Heck you're even rewarded if you didn't focus on culture up to that point because the Cultural Dark Age makes your explorers stronger, which I wouldn't mind if the cultural path actually required you to generate culture.

 

[sTAPler27]

I do like the idea of Relics from other “Achievements”

I thought of a similar concept when I learned about Buganda's wonder which is a site that holds relics pertaining to the leaders burried there. They could serve as artifacts that provide bonuses based on how they were earned like a sword from a high ranking commander you killed that grants more XP or a stamp from a treaty you signed which grants influence.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

Erm...what? The pilgrimage industry reached such a fever pitch in the Late Middle Ages that the Holy See could not keep up with verifying relics, many false claims were made, and the entire concept was tarnished with the concept of charlatanism.

The pilgrimage industry was not the Christian religion. No serious theologian ever claimed that salvation could be found through relics instead of faith in Christ Jesus, nor were relics viewed as a source of understanding the faith, a la Scripture (or to a lesser extent councils, creeds, the Church Fathers, etc).

Relics did not shape the Christian religion in the Middle Ages any more so than kitsch Christian bookstores shape it today.

 

[Zaarin]

The pilgrimage industry was not the Christian religion. No serious theologian ever claimed that salvation could be found through relics instead of faith in Christ Jesus, nor were relics viewed as a source of understanding the faith, a la Scripture (or to a lesser extent councils, creeds, the Church Fathers, etc).

Relics did not shape the Christian religion in the Middle Ages any more so than kitsch Christian bookstores shape it today.

Saying pilgrimage is not a part of Christian religion is an extremely modern American Protestant take (specifying because many Protestants believe in the value of pilgrimage). Also, Scripture is itself a sacred object, i.e., a relic. You cannot understand Medieval Christianity without understanding relics, saints, and pilgrimage, which were part and parcel of the Medieval experience of Christianity.

 

[TheGrayFox]

Huh? The game is not called "Imperialism" (or Europa Universalis). It's called Civilization. Nothing inherently Western about it.

That said, the religious game in Exploration age is not inherently Western either. There were Eastern religions being actively proselytized during European medieval times as well, like Buddhism in Japan and (Neo-)Confucianism in China.

It's called Civilization, the majority of Civs in the first game weren't even western. Military conquest is 1 victory out of many.

You both seem to be miscontruing his point. No where did he say "imperialism is inherently western". All said was that the game was made in the west.

However pretending that the Civilization game are not about imperialism is just kind of niave. The game's historical tagline was "Build an empire to span all time"... and all the "civilizations" represented (especially during the series' earliest iterations) are all the largest and most promiment political polities and nation-states of their time lead by leaders known for conquering and subjugating their own historical empires with few exceptions... Sure military victory isn't the only way of winning the game, but even in things like cultural/economic victories the implication of other weaker cultures being eroded and a stronger culture imposing itself on them is there.

 

[sTAPler27]

You both seem to be miscontruing his point. No where did he say "imperialism is inherently western". All said was that the game was made in the west.

"While we are at it, can this western game about imperialism stop being about imperialism."

Why mention both if both are not a facet of the game's identity?

 

[Krikkit1]

The pilgrimage industry was not the Christian religion. No serious theologian ever claimed that salvation could be found through relics instead of faith in Christ Jesus, nor were relics viewed as a source of understanding the faith, a la Scripture (or to a lesser extent councils, creeds, the Church Fathers, etc).

Relics did not shape the Christian religion in the Middle Ages any more so than kitsch Christian bookstores shape it today.

Theology =/= Religion
Religion is (particularly in a Civilization game) what the People Do because of their beliefs, not the correct theological teachings.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The pilgrimage industry was not the Christian religion. No serious theologian ever claimed that salvation could be found through relics instead of faith in Christ Jesus, nor were relics viewed as a source of understanding the faith, a la Scripture (or to a lesser extent councils, creeds, the Church Fathers, etc).

Relics did not shape the Christian religion in the Middle Ages any more so than kitsch Christian bookstores shape it today.

Besides the brief period of iconoclasm in the Orthodox world, relics were indeed a major part of Christianity during the Medieval Ages. One of the reasons for the first Crusade was establish Jerusalem as a Christian pilgrimage site.
No one is denying that relics and pilgrimage isn't central, or the focal point, of most Christians today, but it's appropriate enough for the Exploration Age, IMO.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

Saying pilgrimage is not a part of Christian religion is an extremely modern American Protestant take (specifying because many Protestants believe in the value of pilgrimage). Also, Scripture is itself a sacred object, i.e., a relic. You cannot understand Medieval Christianity without understanding relics, saints, and pilgrimage, which were part and parcel of the Medieval experience of Christianity.

It sounds as if you’re operating on a descriptive definition of Christianity, whereas I’m operating on a prescriptive definition.

You’re defining Christianity as a description of the practices of anyone self identifying as a Christian.

I’m defining it as the set of orthodox beliefs and behaviors prescribed by Christ and His Apostles, either explicitly in the Scriptures, or inferable therefrom. Anyone claiming to be Christian but espousing heretical beliefs (e.g. Arius) is not a Christian, and what they say or do doesn’t alter what Christianity fundamentally is.

The fact that many in the Middle Ages made much ado about relics doesn’t thrust them into a place of central importance in the fundamental nature of Christianity.

(I imagine similar examples could be made with Mohammed and Islam or Siddhartha and Buddhism)

 

[Krikkit1]

It sounds as if you’re operating on a descriptive definition of Christianity, whereas I’m operating on a prescriptive definition.

And in a civ game descriptive is best. (ie Communism/Democracy should have bonuses/penalties based Roughly* on how it played out...not how Marx/Locke thought it should)

*in a way that is balanced and fun

 

[Zaarin]

It sounds as if you’re operating on a descriptive definition of Christianity, whereas I’m operating on a prescriptive definition.

You’re defining Christianity as a description of the practices of anyone self identifying as a Christian.

I’m defining it as the set of orthodox beliefs and behaviors prescribed by Christ and His Apostles, either explicitly in the Scriptures, or inferable therefrom. Anyone claiming to be Christian but espousing heretical beliefs (e.g. Arius) is not a Christian, and what they say or do doesn’t alter what Christianity fundamentally is.

The fact that many in the Middle Ages made much ado about relics doesn’t thrust them into a place of central importance in the fundamental nature of Christianity.

(I imagine similar examples could be made with Mohammed and Islam or Siddhartha and Buddhism)

To quote my pastor, I'm a Protestant by default, but I'm not protesting anything. I don't see any value in telling the Christians who came before me that they were Christianing wrong. Indeed, I've drunk deeply from American Christianity, and it left me wanting a deeper, more historical, less superficial Christianity. Particularly in the context of a historical game, I see no value in limiting Christianity to the youngest branch of the faith.

 

[TheGrayFox]

"While we are at it, can this western game about imperialism stop being about imperialism."

Why mention both if both are not a facet of the game's identity?

Yes the game is a western game about Imperialism. Nothing stated there is incorrect.

Firaxis is a western game devoloper and the western bias of this series is obvious especially in its earliest interations. Which is why half the civs are almost always specific European/western nation-states, why Ghandi leading a modern India is so common, why we've seen America represented in every game of the series while we've also seen a catch all Native American civ for all indignious North Americans, etc. The series has only recently moved away from using the most popular leaders and figures in western histriography as leaders. Civilization is a western game series

 

[sTAPler27]

Yes the game is a western game about Imperialism. Nothing stated there is incorrect.

Firaxis is a western game devoloper and the western bias of this series is obvious especially in its earliest interations. Which is why half the civs are almost always specific European/western nation-states, why Ghandi leading a modern India is so common, why we've seen America represented in every game of the series while we've also seen a catch all Native American civ for all indignious North Americans, etc. The series has only recently moved away from using the most popular leaders and figures in western histriography as leaders. Civilization is a western game series

I get that it's going to have some bias but the devs at the very least have proven to at least try to make a game simply called "Civilization" to be about civilization as a whole.

And while the game is about imperialism to some degree it should represent the flavors of it. Ming China should not have to send out fleets of missionaries to justify their culture impact just as any country should have to colonize a different continent to have their economic skills backed up. These are very specific markers of success that only represent a small facet of human behaviors.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It sounds as if you’re operating on a descriptive definition of Christianity, whereas I’m operating on a prescriptive definition.

You’re defining Christianity as a description of the practices of anyone self identifying as a Christian.

I’m defining it as the set of orthodox beliefs and behaviors prescribed by Christ and His Apostles, either explicitly in the Scriptures, or inferable therefrom. Anyone claiming to be Christian but espousing heretical beliefs (e.g. Arius) is not a Christian, and what they say or do doesn’t alter what Christianity fundamentally is.

The fact that many in the Middle Ages made much ado about relics doesn’t thrust them into a place of central importance in the fundamental nature of Christianity.

(I imagine similar examples could be made with Mohammed and Islam or Siddhartha and Buddhism)

Then would us using the term Catholic or Eastern Orthodox be more appropriate to try to understand what you mean? Because if you are going to go by those standards then Christianity might have well not even existed until the Modern Age, because when talking about history Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are very much considered Christians.

And I say this as someone that doesn't define myself as Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, but just Christian.

 

[TheGrayFox]

I get that it's going to have some bias but the devs at the very least have proven to at least try to make a game simply called "Civilization" to be about civilization as a whole.

They made a game called civilization to be about civilization as a whole by having you take imperial/national polities and build empire that spans all of time. Firaxis is kind of contradicting themselves

And while the game is about imperialism to some degree it should represent the flavors of it. Ming China should not have to send out fleets of missionaries to justify their culture impact just as any country should have to colonize a different continent to have their economic skills backed up. These are very specific markers of success that only represent a small facet of human behaviors.

Oh I agree with you but I don't think the problem is inherently the victory conditions. It's how the ages themselves are framed around an western narrative of history, particularly the Modern age and Age of Exploration. This problem has always been present to some extent in the series ex: modern age has always lead to European style industrialized nation-states adopting and clashing over European born ideologies but its more grating now that we're also being forced to engage in overseas colonialism modeled on western history to "win" the "Age of Exploration"

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

To quote my pastor, I'm a Protestant by default, but I'm not protesting anything. I don't see any value in telling the Christians who came before me that they were Christianing wrong. Indeed, I've drunk deeply from American Christianity, and it left me wanting a deeper, more historical, less superficial Christianity. Particularly in the context of a historical game, I see no value in limiting Christianity to the youngest branch of the faith.

The youngest branch? My argument is that Christianity can only be defined by what was believed and preached by Christ and the Apostles, long before the Middle Ages, not after. I’m saying that Christianity is whatever Jesus Himself believed, and insofar as later individuals calling themselves Christians differ from Him in their beliefs, they’re wrong about what Christianity is.

There’s nothing specifically American or Protestant about that definition. The early Church, the Fathers, the Councils, and the Creeds were all trying to preserve and explain the teachings that had been handed down by Christ.