Civ 7's Victory Paths can Use Some Work to Feel Less Western Specific

[Albertan Civfanatic]

Being Western is a good thing.

 

[Gen.Washington]

Some victory paths reference western history, some reference eastern history, and some are more general. I wish people would stop arguing over the exact percentages of western or non-western bias before we’ve even played the game. Imperialism and colonialism are not inherently western concepts, but the exploration age IS based on European colonialism because it’s a fun mechanic to drive conflict and your economy.

 

[Ornen]

Bias is innevitable but claiming that because they're a western developer that they are incapable of making a game that represents all of history means a dead end for the future of growing the game in the future. What would the game be without fleshing out old mechanics and adding new civs, you can only do that so much if your view of history and civilization is narrow.

that's not my point here, not sure who's making that point. it's your thread

"this game comes from a western perspective" is not a value judgement in my book, it is the same thing as saying James Joyce operates from an Irish perspective or Gabriel Garcia Marquez writes from a Columbian, a Latin American, and a post-colonial perspective

the starting point for the Civ games is a very western notion of history. in general, these games have gotten more progressive and inclusive in their vision of history, Civ 7 more so than any other game in the series. in some ways I think they go to far, for instance when Ed Beach says that England didn't really exist in the Exploration Age

I'm not crazy about all the victory conditions, replacing the endgame culture victory with digging up artifacts is a particularly egregious example. that seems like a more western take on culture to me, and a poor one at that — even western culture in the modern era has been defined much more by mass media (novels, magazines, film, radio) than by museum antiquities

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

The Exploration Age should have a 'Exploration' legacy path. Have explorer units which compete with other civs for different victory conditions w : Longest Ship voyage, most cities visited, most wonders visited, longest land travel. Might just be a lot of moving units around, but I like moving units.

 

[sTAPler27]

Some victory paths . . . reference eastern history,

Refference but that's where it ends.

The Exploration Age Legacy Path is called Toshakhana which is described as

"a Mughal place where princes store 'gifts and emblems of honor that they received for their posterity ... an archive of objects whose origin and receipt embodied his status and honor' "

This really doesn't match the Catholic or Orthodox view of religious relics that the gameplay seems to pace itself on. It sounds like they realized all the concepts they had for the exploration age were very Euro focused so threw on a name that would distance itself from the reality of the gameplay.

Unrelated but the Toshakhana keeping more in line with its namesake, would make for a great Diplomatic Legacy Path Name.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Refference but that's where it ends.

The Exploration Age Legacy Path is called Toshakhana which is described as

"a Mughal place where princes store 'gifts and emblems of honor that they received for their posterity ... an archive of objects whose origin and receipt embodied his status and honor' "

This really doesn't match the Catholic or Orthodox view of religious relics that the gameplay seems to pace itself on. It sounds like they realized all the concepts they had for the exploration age were very Euro focused so threw on a name that would distance itself from the reality of the gameplay.

Unrelated but the Toshakhana keeping more in line with its namesake, would make for a great Diplomatic Legacy Path Name.

I don't think we need more legacy paths (at least I'd hope not tbh) but for the current ones to be more robust and have more options. In my head, it's like this for now because the team wanted a smoothly operating game first and foremost before adding even more. It's not even a Western vs. Nonwestern issue but one of more gameplay variety. I don't particularly want to do this treasure fleet game every time if I'm trying for that victory, for example. Maybe I want to make a bunch of money some other way.

 

[Ebon-Hawke-]

Refference but that's where it ends.

The Exploration Age Legacy Path is called Toshakhana which is described as

"a Mughal place where princes store 'gifts and emblems of honor that they received for their posterity ... an archive of objects whose origin and receipt embodied his status and honor' "

This really doesn't match the Catholic or Orthodox view of religious relics that the gameplay seems to pace itself on. It sounds like they realized all the concepts they had for the exploration age were very Euro focused so threw on a name that would distance itself from the reality of the gameplay.

Unrelated but the Toshakhana keeping more in line with its namesake, would make for a great Diplomatic Legacy Path Name.

Hasn't this thread argued this to death already, religious relics are present in practically every religion ever to the same or a larger degree. Large swashes of Christianity place absolutely 0 in relics.

 

[sTAPler27]

I don't think we need more legacy paths (at least I'd hope not tbh) but for the current ones to be more robust and have more options. In my head, it's like this for now because the team wanted a smoothly operating game first and foremost before adding even more. It's not even a Western vs. Nonwestern issue but one of more gameplay variety. I don't particularly want to do this treasure fleet game every time if I'm trying for that victory, for example. Maybe I want to make a bunch of money some other way.

I think it's inevitable we get at least 1 more victory path, given we lost 2 of the ones from 6. I feel like Religion won't return unless they make the mechanic more robust and divide it from culture. I think it's far more likely we'll see a Diplomacy Path given they invested so much time and resources into the new system and making a Path for it would be rather easy, "Suze 5 City States" "Support 30 Diplomatic Actions".

 

[Zaarin]

I think it's inevitable we get at least 1 more victory path, given we lost 2 of the ones from 6.

Arguably, we did not lose Religious Victory; it just got folded into Culture Victory.

 

[sTAPler27]

Arguably, we did not lose Religious Victory; it just got folded into Culture Victory.

Fair but given its only necesary for 1/3 of a path I didn't want to count it. Culture is as much an Artifact or Wonder Victory now

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I don't miss a total RV. I'd like there to be more options within religion, though. Not much, just some beliefs that benefit having followers in your own land. I can't imagine it would take much to just change a belief.

 

[sTAPler27]

I don't miss a total RV. I'd like there to be more options within religion, though. Not much, just some beliefs that benefit having followers in your own land. I can't imagine it would take much to just change a belief.

Me neither, I do think a more complex religion system would be cool by itself though. Schisms, Beliefs with Downsides, Different Types of Religions, etc.

 

[Krikkit1]

I don't miss a total RV. I'd like there to be more options within religion, though. Not much, just some beliefs that benefit having followers in your own land. I can't imagine it would take much to just change a belief.

There are Social Policies in the religion tree that do that. Otherwise I think they want to encourage the getting out and competing religion game as opposed to the turtling inquisition defense game.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

There are Social Policies in the religion tree that do that. Otherwise I think they want to encourage the getting out and competing religion game as opposed to the turtling inquisition defense game.

Yeah, it seems that way. I don't particularly like it though.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think it's inevitable we get at least 1 more victory path, given we lost 2 of the ones from 6. I feel like Religion won't return unless they make the mechanic more robust and divide it from culture. I think it's far more likely we'll see a Diplomacy Path given they invested so much time and resources into the new system and making a Path for it would be rather easy, "Suze 5 City States" "Support 30 Diplomatic Actions".

I'm fine with losing Religion, and merging it into culture, considering that's what I wanted from the start. I do wish it wasn't so simplified and relegated to one age though.

At least we did gain Economics, and I can definitely see Diplomatic legacy path returning. Maybe in the Exploration Age @Zaarin could finally get his Ecumenical councils that he's been wanting?

 

[Connor_CivFan]

I think it's inevitable we get at least 1 more victory path, given we lost 2 of the ones from 6.

God I hope their are more victory paths, 4 just isnt satisfactory for me. Honestly surprised diplomacy isn't in the base game despite its increased importance.

 

[aelf]

Because the implication was that it was a western game about imperialism. Not that the game was specifically only about only western imperialism. My defense wasn't "inane" your argument is just kind of not good and obvious misrepresntation of the post you responded to

Why is it weird to refer to an empire that expanded through military conquest as imperialist...? Quaint? Do you think the city state of Babylon conquered and controlled Jerusalem through hugs and kisses?

Who is arguing that Civilization MUST represent ONLY western exploration and colonization....mods forgive me but that is literally a strawman. Again that wasn't the point and you are arguing against the most uncharitable interpretention of that post. . This Civilization series has an obvious western bias as it's designed by westerners and the series' is inherently about imperialism. Those two points shouldn't be contentious to point out together

First, I think you should acquaint yourself with the conventional definition of imperialism, which stems from the age of (Western) imperialism:

Imperialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Aside from that, you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. The original poster appears to be conflating a western perspective with having content that only represents Western historical trends. To wit, to point out the exact same argument:

the game is made by westerners, it comes from a western perspective. it is directly relevant to the topic at hand, which is the claim that certain gameplay systems operate from a western perspective.

There is a difference between having a western perspective and representing only Western historical trends. You seem to be claiming that just because Firaxis necessarily has a western perspective, the content they make must also be limited to representing Western historical trends.

This is pretty straightforward, but it can be confusing for people who aren't used to thinking with any precision.
Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. The_J

 

[UWHabs]

I think it's inevitable we get at least 1 more victory path, given we lost 2 of the ones from 6. I feel like Religion won't return unless they make the mechanic more robust and divide it from culture. I think it's far more likely we'll see a Diplomacy Path given they invested so much time and resources into the new system and making a Path for it would be rather easy, "Suze 5 City States" "Support 30 Diplomatic Actions".

God I hope their are more victory paths, 4 just isnt satisfactory for me. Honestly surprised diplomacy isn't in the base game despite its increased importance.

I don't mind the 4 paths, but agreed that it definitely feels like the diplomacy has increased importance, enough that it wouldn't be hard to push it to its own victory condition. Although I do think if it was just CS and actions, that gets a little too much of just needing one resource. Everything else you at least need production/gold/science/food/etc.... I wouldn't really want a win condition that was effectively "first to 5000 influence points wins".

 

[Uberfrog]

We should be careful what we wish for with additional victory conditions. I don’t think Diplomatic and Religious victories have ever been satisfyingly implemented, and while a lot of effort went into Civ 6’s World Congress, I think it ultimately added very little to the experience of playing the game.

 

[Acid.Crash]

Economic Path:
-The Antiquity and Modern age version of these paths aren't bad but the Exploration could use some work. So far we only know of 4 treasure resources and they seem to be the same each game, they're things like spices and cocoa things sought primarily as they were either not in the "old world" or because they weren't plentiful in Europe specifcally. To alleviate this 7 should embrace part of 6's luxury system in which certain continents have specific resources. Any resource not on your home continent would be a "treasure resource". There would be no one continent to plunder as all have things the others want.

I'm not sure if you can engage in this victory without colonization but if not you should be able to generate Treasure Fleets from using Merchants to establish trade with Distant Land Civs. You'd still be able to engage with the piracy mechanics while not needing to engage in colonialism. And most importantly it would fit with the objectives of the other ages better as this objective feels more fitting for a Militarist path.

Military Path:
-In the Exploration age only Mongolia can gain Military Legacy points from non Distant Land conquests which while I appreciate that touch, should be extended to even more Civs and have Distant Lands conquests simply grant more points. I really don't find this path as agregious because a Military Path is quite simple and mobilizing a military across an ocean is a pretty universal feat that reflects the path well, I just don't think it should be the sole gauge of success.

I believe the ideas are quite good, especially for players who like variety in maps (YnAMP etc).
In current state it is quite hard to imagine how to implement some map shapes staying within "distant lands" and "treasure fleet" paradigm