CiV at PAX East, let's wait!

I really hope the advisers at least will be able to offer you some information on what your opponents think of you. In the real world, your embassy to Greece would be able to say "the Greeks are pretty upset with you because of X". This is how you would know your international standing - making it just a blind guess based on things they have already done doesn't make any sense.
I hope that this change is simply an attempt to increase the utility of the advisers so that they are vital for gauging opponents opinions of you.

I guess they could do something like this. But Advisors should be somethnig there as a Help function for new players. I shouldn't have to treat them as people or have them "tell me things" in words. I should be able to just look at data displayed to me in the information screens. Civ4, with BUG, is pretty good at this.

(and imho the same idea could be applied to the output of farms and mines [i.e. they could produce between 1 & 3 but you would not know the exact amount until it is built])

This is the kind of uncertainty that destroys the ability to make meaningful strategic decisions. I was being sarcastic when I suggested that type of change. How can I optimize improvements if I don't know how good they'll be until I actually build them?

Once I started using the BUG mod I realized how much I hated having information hidden from me.

Yeah, me too. Clearly displaying how big a gold increase I would get from building a market vs building a courthouse was a huge improvement.
 
This is the kind of uncertainty that destroys the ability to make meaningful strategic decisions. I was being sarcastic when I suggested that type of change. How can I optimize improvements if I don't know how good they'll be until I actually build them?

What I meant is that this could add a certain realism in the fact that each farm does not always produce the same amount of food (e.g. weather conditions) and for mines this could represent 'stricking lucky' on an previously undiscovered ore vein.

It would make planning harder but not impossible.
 
I guess they could do something like this. But Advisors should be somethnig there as a Help function for new players. I shouldn't have to treat them as people or have them "tell me things" in words. I should be able to just look at data displayed to me in the information screens. Civ4, with BUG, is pretty good at this.

"should be"? I mean, they always have been in the past, but wouldn't it be nice to have them serve some sort of actual function, rather than just being the Civilization equivalent of Clippy?

"Hey, it looks like you're writing a declaration of war!..."

I don't mean like having to talk to a stupid animated avatar for 5 mins to work out what's going on, but it would be quite nice to get a "Greece is angry with you because of your dealings with Germany, be careful sire" rather than "Greece: Aggression +5" or something quite so soulless and mathematical.

More exact mechanic revealing stuff can be modded in, but I still think it would be nice to have some more realistic fuzzy measure of your diplomatic standing.
 
Why use advisors for that ?

Can it not simply be 'Greece that tells you to stop dealing with Germany or else...', espcially now that they have fully animated leaders ?
 
I think having some sort of espionage system that allows you to see what a rival is building and if they're planning a war could be very interesting.
 
In regards to roads, and I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but couldn't roads just cost upkeep so that people would only build them when needed. And if you choose not to pay/can't afford the road maintenance your roads fall into disrepair and stop working?
 
he is standing on a gentle hillside next to a large boulder. You can see mountains in the background and he is in full samurai armor except for a helmet.
 
What I meant is that this could add a certain realism in the fact that each farm does not always produce the same amount of food (e.g. weather conditions) and for mines this could represent 'stricking lucky' on an previously undiscovered ore vein.

Why would we want to represent that?
Gameplay >>> "realism"

Besides, we already have superior places for mines, or farms represented; they're bonus resources.

"should be"? I mean, they always have been in the past, but wouldn't it be nice to have them serve some sort of actual function, rather than just being the Civilization equivalent of Clippy?

No advisor saying things in words is ever going to be as quick and effective at conveying information to the player as is a well-designed datascreen.

I cannot imagine a way of actually making the advisors useful to an advanced player in a way that wasn't inefficient.

And no advisor is ever going to be able to give me useful strategic advice, because the AI isn't as good at making game decisions as I am.

The only way to make the information advisors give you be useful is to deliberately deny your access to that information from another source. Which is a terrible idea, for all the reasons discussed above.

Have you ever seen another game where there were Advisors that gave useful advice to an advanced player?

So yes, I'd rather that they be left as a Help function for beginners that advanced players will turn off. The only other alternative way to make them matter would be an RPG-ish system, like cabinet members in Empire Total War or Hearts of Iron, where the occupant of a particular slot (minister of the army, minister of industry, minister of agriculture, etc.) gives you particular bonuses and penalties. But I don't see that working well either.

Can it not simply be 'Greece that tells you to stop dealing with Germany or else...', espcially now that they have fully animated leaders ?
Wouldn't the Civ4 method be much more efficient? Sometimes they'll make a demand, and you can see that trading with Germany will irritate Greece because the diplomacy mouseover shows you that Greece is their worst enemy. Why do I need a talking head to tell me in words what Ic an read in a second or two if the data is properly available?
 
The thing is, it's not all about "efficiency". If it was all about efficiency then every single mechanic would be clear to the player so that you could plan the outcome of every battle by knowing the maths going on behind the scenes.

Obscuring game mechanics is not intended to improve your efficiency, it is to improve the gameplay by making things less predictable and more interesting.

Whether or not they achieve this doesn't really matter, I feel you are missing the reason why they would consider making a change like this.
 
That sounds interesting, I wonder if there will be a distinction between what you get from them and what you get from huts. I assume that ruins of ancient dead cities aren't going to be teaching you new technologies or giving free units, but maybe a cultural bonus or currency bonus (treasure!) might be gained.

Thanks for the info thunderflush.
No. Ruin gives only bad thing, bad fortune. But if you were to build a city in its tile, you will have to swallow it... :lol:
 
There is a big difference between What and Why.

Reduced information about the why doesn't mean reduced information about the what as some posters seem to believe.

I want (and expect) to know (in great detail) what buildings do, what units can do, what promotions they appear to have, what defences a city appears to have, and what my opponents appear to be doing etc. etc.

I would rather not know why...

Imagine the following set of facts about my neighbour Montezuma...
  • He was recently at war with his other neighbour
  • He is clearly building up an army
  • His Civics (or the civ 5 equiv.) are set to highly aggressive, warmongering choices.
  • I see units moving towards his other neighbour, but there are also some coming my way.
If his diplomatic modifiers are hidden I won't know why he thinks he is in an arms race. (Ok it's Monty he doesn't need a reason...but you get my point)

Personally I don't want to know the why...

If I can't see diplomatic modifiers I have to use all the other information at my disposal to make strategic decisions. Being able to see what the AI is thinking really feels like cheating to me far worse than any of the handicapping for difficulty level that is often complained about.

So...Do I reinforce my borders in case Monty attacks me? Darn right I do, unless I have extremely compelling intel that suggests otherwise.
(Except in Civ IV I could magically read his mind and see if he was friendly. I simply cannot see how that makes the game better.)

My ideal scenario would be if, as many posters have suggested, there is a way for advisors to interpret the actions of your opponents and suggest how they feel towards you. Also I hope there is some form of rudimentary intelligence gathering (that is completely different from the espionage system in Civ IV) that can provide you (or your advisors) with additional data on which to base your decisions. Spy units that can explore foreign lands should still be in (as they were in Civ IV vanilla).

A full Espionage feature added in an expansion pack which is all about gathering additional intel so you get a clearer picture of what your opponents are doing (and maybe if you are lucky some hints at the why) would be great also.
 
If it was all about efficiency then every single mechanic would be clear to the player so that you could plan the outcome of every battle by knowing the maths going on behind the scenes.

Yes! This would be great. In Civ4, you can do this, mostly, the mechanics are pretty clear. You're making a die-roll, but you know what the probabilities of the outcomes are.
This is a strategy game, not a historic roleplaying game.

I feel you are missing the reason why they would consider making a change like this.

Yes, I am. I fail to see why maknig it more difficult to devise an effective strategy makes the game more fun. If you hide the affects of your actions, you end up with a game like Moo3, where you're stumbling around in the dark because you can't tell whether an action you just took mattered or not.
Suppose that my neighbor asks for a gift; why would you possibly not want to know whether giving them the gift will make them like you better or dislike you more?

If his diplomatic modifiers are hidden I won't know why he thinks he is in an arms race.
Personally I don't want to know the why...

How could you possibly not want to know why?

If my neighbor is building a big army, I want to know if its more likely that they're going to invade me, or if they're going to invade my rival.

I want to know which actions I have taken are more likely to make me the target, so that I know how to avoid that, and so that I know they're worth taking (is it worth me invading that little tiny civ if it pisses off my good friend?).

And for all the people saying "realism"; in just about every major war in history, you could anticipate it beforehand; you know roughly who is likely to end up in conflict, and you know why they're going to do it. Leaders weren't stupid, and had pretty good intelligence. If a foreign power was annoyed at you, you know that, and you know why. They don't just suddenly show up at your door one day with an army.

It could be resource rivalry, or power rivalry, or religion, or expansionism, or to support an ally, but you know the reason, and you have at least some feel for which side a given country is likely to declare war on (will they invade me, or my rival?).

Yes, there are often miscalculations, but the basic system of alliances is pretty clear at the time. Its not like anyone in the 1930s thought France would invade Britain, its not like anyone in Cold War Europe thought that the UK would intervene to help the Soviets, its not like during the late 1930s Canada would be disturbed by a military buildup in the US, its not like anyone in New Zealand worries about being invaded by Australia (we'd see them off alright though - with *both* our frigates).

So...Do I reinforce my borders in case Monty attacks me? Darn right I do, unless I have extremely compelling intel that suggests otherwise.
What about: that neighbor building up an army has been your closest ally for 500 years, and you've been trading with them, giving them techs and liberating cities for them, and you have the same religion and adopted their favorite civic. You don't think you should be able to tell if that matters, and if it makes them less likely to invade you?

The absence of information makes strategic planning difficult, and strategic planning/decision-maknig is what we *do* in a strategy game. No-one seems able to explain to me why this is not the over-riding issue.
 
Yes! This would be great. In Civ4, you can do this, mostly, the mechanics are pretty clear. You're making a die-roll, but you know what the probabilities of the outcomes are.
This is a strategy game, not a historic roleplaying game.

To be honest, this is your interpretation of the way you want to play the game. There is nothing fundamentally wrong about the obscuring of game mechanics to create the illusion of improved AI and a less artificial environment. It's the sort of thing that games do all the time to improve immersion and mask the fact that it's all basically just a graphical spreadsheet.

I understand that you want more control over the exact stuff, but that stuff can be easily modded in at a later date one would assume. It would be much harder for it to work the other way in a satisfactory way.
 
Obviously its my personal preference, but I would be very surprised if this isn't what most people wanted. The data doesn't have to be overwhelming, it can be done through mouseover text, as in civ4.

I do not see how obscuring game information makes the AI seem better, or the environment less artificial, or improves immersion.

To me, it is perfectly logical that my neighbor attacks me because I invaded his friend, refused to adopt his preferred policies, and encroached on his territory.
It is deeply *un*immersive if he just declares war on me and I have no way of observing what actions I took that contributed to him doing that.

It is immersive to me if the AI players act like countries. It breaks immersion if they act like multiplayer humans, following particular narrow victory conditions.

If you don't want to know why your enemy is mad at you... then don't look!

It's the sort of thing that games do all the time to improve immersion and mask the fact that it's all basically just a graphical spreadsheet.
Can you provide some examples of this, where it is clearly good design?

UI's are normally designed to make the game mechanics as informative as possible, without overwhelming the player with data.

Did it really break immersion for you in Civ4 to be able to see that having the same religion gave you a +6 diplomacy bonus, whereas having ongoing trade relationships only gave +1?
Or did that inform your strategic decisions about whether or not to adopt a different religion?
How would removing that data from the player make the AI seem better, or the game less artificial?
 
How could you possibly not want to know why?

If my neighbor is building a big army, I want to know if its more likely that they're going to invade me, or if they're going to invade my rival.
Absolutely, and I want them to behave in a rational and consistent manner so that I can deduce this from information about their civil stance, military actions, and foreign relations.
I do not want to read their mind.

And for all the people saying "realism"; in just about every major war in history, you could anticipate it beforehand; you know roughly who is likely to end up in conflict, and you know why they're going to do it. Leaders weren't stupid, and had pretty good intelligence. If a foreign power was annoyed at you, you know that, and you know why. They don't just suddenly show up at your door one day with an army.
Indeed, but you deduced it from their military actions, their domestic needs, their domestic policy and their foreign policy interactions, not by reading their mind. And guess what...when the opponent wasn't rational then leaders *cough*Chamberlain*cough* got it wrong.

What about: that neighbor building up an army has been your closest ally for 500 years, and you've been trading with them, giving them techs and liberating cities for them, and you have the same religion and adopted their favorite civic. You don't think you should be able to tell if that matters, and if it makes them less likely to invade you?
Exactly, and if the AI is consistent and rational then I can tell if that all matters not by reading their mind but from threat assessment based on intel.
The absence of information makes strategic planning difficult, ...
I'm not suggesting an absence of information, I simply believe the type of information available in Civ IV is akin to cheating. In Civ IV the leaders where not always consistent and often appeared to make random decisions so that access to psychic knowledge was necessary. In Civ V it appears Firaxis are fixing this and so the AIs behaviour will be easier to understand and predict, so my hope is that mind-reading should no longer be necessary.
...and strategic planning/decision-maknig is what we *do* in a strategy game. No-one seems able to explain to me why this is not the over-riding issue.
I have been playing strategy games for over 30 years (Diplomacy anyone?) and Civilization is the only one I have ever played that gives this sort of information away. It hasn't stopped me from doing strategic planning and decision making before.
I'm sorry I simply don't understand why you see it as an over-riding issue.:dunno:
 
Obviously its my personal preference, but I would be very surprised if this isn't what most people wanted. The data doesn't have to be overwhelming, it can be done through mouseover text, as in civ4.

Yeah, I'm not sure if I like it either. But I'm trying to empathise with why they would make such a change in order to understand what it might be like - to be honest we don't really know how it will play at all so we may see the exact equivalent of the Civ 4 modifiers just in a different form.

Can you provide some examples of this, where it is clearly good design?

Imagine you're playing an MMO. Those monsters have AI behind them that do things like work out who is causing the most damage and target them. Then if you use certain skills at certain times, it will switch to attacking them etc...

Basically, the idea of the AI is to appear intelligent, as if it's observing the situation and reacting to it - but in reality it's just a bunch of number crunching.

Now, you can become really efficient at the game if you knew all those numbers by using things like threat meters and stuff but this turns the game into just looking at a bunch of numbers and bars.

Many people argue that it would be far better if the AI does unexpected things - actually attempting to be a challenging opponent.

The less you know about how the inner workings of the mechanics, the more interesting the experience can become. Logical but not predictable, because you don't have all the information.

Game designers obscure the inner workings of their mechanics all the time. When ever you encounter an AI it is almost certainly working on a bunch of relatively simple rules and equations that give the appearance of intelligence simply because you don't know how it works.
 
I do not want to read their mind.

How is recording the effects of my historic actions with them "reading their mind"?
I attacked their friend, submitted to their tribute, and share a state religion with them. There is a diplomacy modifier number that displays the relative importance of these for me. How is that mind reading?

The Civ4 interface does NOT say "player X will attack you when their diplomacy modifier reaches -6". That could constitute mind reading. But that's not what we have. We have a system which lets us evaluate the relative importance of different diplomatic actions.

A real world leader would observe all kinds of indicative things about the enemy: intelligence reports, internal propaganda/statements, goals of the regime.
But we dont' get to see any of that.

So you have all this intel on whether they like your religion, your civics, your history... why not sum all that up into a nice easy to observe number? And display that to the player?

Chamberlain knew that the Nazis weren't his ally. He knew there was a good chance of them starting an expansionist war. He was desperately playing for time to re-arm Britain.

I simply believe the type of information available in Civ IV is akin to cheating.
Which information feels like cheating? Knowing that adopting a different religion would really piss them off?
Knowing that they hold a grudge for you having attacked their friend?
How are these cheating?
I really don't understand what you're meaning here.

Exactly, and if the AI is consistent and rational then I can tell if that all matters not by reading their mind but from threat assessment based on intel.
Which intel? How do you determine from looknig at their civics and the number of military units they have whether gifting them stuff will make them like you more or not. How do you determine from looknig at their civics and the number of military units they have how big an impact changing religion away from them will have? How do you determine from looknig at their civics and the number of military units they have whether or not they are imminently likely to invade you? What is the problem with displaying a summary value that shows you that they aren't likely to attack them because of all the good things you have done for them in past?

I have been playing strategy games for over 30 years (Diplomacy anyone?)
"Diplomacy" is a game with *no* diplomacy engine. It only works when played between human players; all the diplomacy is psychological.
Can you imagine how lame playing "diplomacy" against only AI players would be? Where you couldn't tell at all what impact any you had on the likelihood of anyone else to attack you?
Ultimate exercise in frustration!

and Civilization is the only one I have ever played that gives this sort of information away
Civ is almost the only game I can think of with a non-frustrating diplomacy engine. Witness games like the Total War series. Diplomacy is totally frustrating, because you have exactly no idea why an AI player chooses to attack you or not. It feels random.
Europa Universalis and many Paradox games from memory display to you a high degree of modifiers (been a while since I played those).
I forget what Galciv shows you, but it at least shows you a decent range of attitude levels, and I think it shows you some of what is changing those attitude levels (like: alignment, trade routes, etc).

I'm sorry I simply don't understand why you see it as an over-riding issue.
Because I don't understand how you can make sensible strategic decisions when you don't know what their effect will be.

Without that data, you lose an entire portion of the game; the ability to advance your civ through diplomacy.

I can understand why many players wouldnt' look at some of the info, but I can't understand why any player would prefer that they be prevented from knowing what the implications of their actions would be.
 
Imagine you're playing an MMO. Those monsters have AI behind them that do things like work out who is causing the most damage and target them. Then if you use certain skills at certain times, it will switch to attacking them etc...

This analogy doesn't work for me. I've never played an MMO, but from what I understand there is no diplomacy at all, and there is very little interaction. You get in range, they attack, and if you do more damage to them, they shift to attacknig you.

There's no need to display any data to you, because there aren't any strategic interactions. You want to kill them by doing damage to them. There's no scope for uncertanity of what the consequences of different actions might be.

You have no strategic decisions to make that interact with how the monster acts, you just want to do damage to it while trying to stay alive.
 
You have no strategic decisions to make that interact with how the monster acts, you just want to do damage to it while trying to stay alive.

The analogy works because you are dealing with an AI.

There is strategy - we're not talking grand long term strategy like you have in Civ, but there is strategy in when people should cast spells, and when you should heal and when you should sit back or you the enemies might start to target you. How much damage you can do to a particular target before you should switch to another so they don't cast a hex on you. What composition your team should have with classes and skills, what direction the enemies should be approached from to be the most vulnerable, and what part of the map would be most beneficial to your formation...

You are dealing with an AI, and the reason it appears to you as an AI and not a series of numbers filling up in bars is because these aspects are hidden from you.

In Civ, you don't want to know that the AI is at +27 aggression and he will attack you at +30 aggression, and if you move two units near his territory then trade with his enemy that will trigger it, but if you give him 590 gold his aggression will only reach +29 and you'll be safe. This is too much information and it removes the illusion of intelligence.

It's more interesting and challenging to have your diplomatic advisor saying "The Greek government are extremely annoyed with us, we must tread carefully or we will risk war". Then it's like the opponent actually has a mind and an opinion, not int_aggression(5) >= 25
 
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