CiV at PAX East, let's wait!

[Ahriman]

But I do know that there are still some hidden modifiers in Civ4 such that you couldn't always tell what diplo level someone would be with you based solely off the sum of their numbers.

There are a coulpe that are hidden from you in vanilla (large/small empire, initial degree of antipathy - some leaders hate everyone more). But that's about it; you can see all the major ones.

BUG fixes that, and reveals the hidden data.

Yeah, you can't see the exact effects of all of them from XML only, but you can see all the variation across leaders.

 

[PieceOfMind]

There are a coulpe that are hidden from you in vanilla (large/small empire, initial degree of antipathy - some leaders hate everyone more). But that's about it; you can see all the major ones.

BUG fixes that, and reveals the hidden data.

Yeah, you can't see the exact effects of all of them from XML only, but you can see all the variation across leaders.

Well, really it's Show Hidden Attitude Mod (by DaveMcW) and I think it's built into BULL, not BUG. Obviously that mod was not built anywhere near Civ4's release though.

Anyway, my original point is still what I meant: You won't necessarily be able to tell everything about how diplo works straight away at release. If any of it needs source code, then you'll need to wait til the sdk is released (maybe it will be with the game, who knows?) before fully revealing the mechanics.

I'm not arguing anything else than that. Just don't get your hopes up for a Show Hidden Attitude Mod appearing in the week after release.

 

[Ahriman]

Anyway, my original point is still what I meant: You won't necessarily be able to tell everything about how diplo works straight away at release.

Agreed.

I just hope that the in-game UI provides enough data to the player so that they can make a meaningful diplomatic strategy.

 

[deanej]

Well, it depends on how Firaxis names the tags. It's also possible that their will be some randomness there like with the flavors. I imagine that modding civ5 will be more similar than different from civ4. Worldbuilder may be external, and we have Lua instead of Python, but at its core, the modding system looks like it will be exactly the same as what we have now: XML, a scripting language, the SDK (may or may not be there at release; vanilla wasn't, but Warlords and BtS were), and a map editor. The details are changing, but the idea is the same.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Weighing in on the open diplomacy modifier debate.

Civ4 had the right idea, but that idea wasn't showing you the numbers. It was about giving you a reason to build a relationship with one Civ and hostility with another. They would behave consistently with you if you behaved consistently and to prove this, they showed you the numbers.

My view is they should blur the line between a human player and an AI player. This relationship building was a first step, but, as long as you could see exactly what you did, it would never be the final one. However, one thing to keep in mind is that human players have communication. Instead of -5 for declaring war on a friend, they can ask you to stop warring against someone and, if you refuse, act more hostile towards you (there are some points about deception that can be factored in depending on personality, but that's the basic).

The other key point is to think about what you want, however. It should realize that it can make you angry and act accordingly (and that doesn't mean getting angry at you because you requested something that was denied, but it does mean being more alert to your troop movements after your request was denied).

 

[PieceOfMind]

Well, it depends on how Firaxis names the tags. It's also possible that their will be some randomness there like with the flavors. I imagine that modding civ5 will be more similar than different from civ4. Worldbuilder may be external, and we have Lua instead of Python, but at its core, the modding system looks like it will be exactly the same as what we have now: XML, a scripting language, the SDK (may or may not be there at release; vanilla wasn't, but Warlords and BtS were), and a map editor. The details are changing, but the idea is the same.

Good point. In that case, the desire/demand for such a mod (SHAM) would need to be there, which we don't know yet.
It will depend also on how many people will want altered rules mods and when.