Civ Discussion - Normans

[bengalryan9]

Only a few more civs in the exploration age to discuss, and next up are the Normans. The Normans are a diplomatic and militaristic civilization with a starting bias towards Iron and Coastal terrain. Their associated wonder is the White Tower, which gives +4 base happiness and +4 happiness for every tradition slotted in the government (but which must be built next to a city hall). They are unlocked by playing as Greece or Rome, by choosing Ada Lovelace, either Frederich, Lafayette, Machiavelli, either Napolean, Benjamin Franklin, or Catherine the Great as your leader, by improving 3 iron resources, or by building 5 city walls. They automatically unlock America, Great Britain, and France in the modern age.

Their unique ability is Normannitas, which gives land units +1 movement when embarked as well as +5 CS when adjacent to coastal terrain.
Their unique military unit is the Chevaler, a courser replacement that gets +3 CS against slower units.
Their unique civilian unit is the Sokeman, a settler replacement that gives the town free city walls in the city center when founding a settlement.
Their unique buildings are the Motte (+4 base happiness, +4 additional happiness if built on rough terrain, +1 happiness for adjacent wonders, and acts as a fortified district) and the Bailey (+4 base culture, +1 culture for adjacent medieval walls and wonders, and acts as a fortified district), which together form the unique Donjon quarter (receive a free chevaler when completed and gives +10% production towards cavalry units).

Norman Civics:
Consuetudines et Justicie – unlocks the Motte and Palisading tradition, and at mastery unlocks the Bailey and gives the Chevaler +1 CS for every tradition slotted.
Common Law – unlocks the Jure tradition and gives +1 policy slot, and at mastery unlocks the Servitium Debitum and Familia Regis traditions and gives +1 settlement limit
Domesday Book – unlocks the Bayeux Tapestry tradition and gives +2 gold to farms (doubled during celebrations), and at mastery unlocks the White Tower and gives +1 settlement limit

Norman Traditions:
Bayeux Tapestry - +4 culture in settlements not founded by you
Familia Regis - +2 culture for every tradition slotted in the government
Jure - +4 culture from the palace and +2 happiness from city halls
Palisading - +50% production towards fortification buildings
Servitium Debitum - -2 gold maintenance on cavalry units

Thoughts on the Normans? Are they strong, weak, or just right? Any parts of their kit in particular that you like or dislike, or any changes you’d like to see? Which leaders do you like to pair with them, and what other civilizations make for good transitions in other ages? Have you ever played a game where you *didn’t* unlock them?

 

[bengalryan9]

Can't say that I've ever been particularly excited about the Normans, but at least I know that they will pretty much always be available to fall back on if I have bad luck with unlocks at the age transition (seriously, I think I've unlocked them in every game I've ever played). There are things to like about their kit - gold on farms is fun, the chevelar is pretty good, and so is Familia Regis if you played as someone with good traditions in antiquity. I think the extra movement on embarked unit is a nice convenience, and their buildings and quarter are pretty nice as well. I just don't find any of it to be particularly exciting, per say, so the Normans would rarely be at the top of my list of civs to choose in Exploration.

I've had some bad luck with the Sokeman in the past, too, FWIW - they don't *always* give your new settlement free walls because the rules for spawning those walls are the same as they are for building them... if you get really aggressive about forward settling and there's an aggressive unit next to your spot, you won't get the walls. Not gamebreaking by any stretch but can be annoying.

Normans are another civ that have an odd attribute pairing, too. They're a diplomatic civilization that doesn't get a single bonus towards playing diplomatically. No extra influence generation, no discounts on spending influence, no relationship modifiers, nothing. Again, not game breaking, just odd... their kit makes them look more like a cultural and militaristic civ to me.

 

[Leucarum]

This is easily my least favourite civ in the game by a massive margin.

Their yield bonuses get very rapidly outscaled, so really they're all about having good (sometimes printed) cavalry with bonus CS. And Walls. Everyone gets excited about walls don't they?

Blander than beige... So few Civ slots and one of them was used for this? sigh

 

[pjotroos]

They're definitely on the weaker end of Exploration, when it comes to both flavour and power, but I feel they're in a slightly better spot now than they were on release.

The unique district can be bought in any town specialised into Fort; that allows to carry some culture generation into modern. The combat bonus on the coast - if you manage to leverage it - can actually make a meaningful difference. The embarked move speed bonus means faster treasure fleets. Their wall building bonus synergises well with Assyrian traditions, and the new Forbidden Palace bolsters it further. I had fun settling & conquering distant lands for the treasures, and buying my way to motte & bailey in each of them.

Speaking of buying; gold on farms is fantastic. It's strong, and it fits them thematically. It's fun to see your profits lift off when you start a celebration. It should have been one of their traditions; at least the baseline (non celebration) part. I feel that alone would make them much stronger pick.

I had another game with them recently, and they felt better than Hawai'i, at least. Still nowhere near the top, but they're no longer utterly pointless, at least.

 

[Siptah]

I don‘t think that the Normans are a strong choice, but

… they are very fun to play thematically:
1) spam farms
2) embark your cavalry to conquer across water

 

[Doratov]

This civ can mow down everyone else with their powered up and cheaply maintained cavs like almost noone else. With the happyness bonus by the unique quarter in every town, and a nice cav focused pre setup from Antiquity, you can conquer the whole world and get almost every settlement on the map in Exploration, and you empire will not fall apart. I get that this makes them almost like a one-trick pony, but this pony is very good with that trick. Any leader with cav focus is just icing on top.

 

[FungeonKeeper]

It's a fairly bland civ. I don't hate it, but I typically forego it in favor of other options. I do find wall spam somewhat enjoyable, though.

Their traditions don't impress me very much, but I find it interesting that there are 5 of them, which could make for some interesting (albeit likely gimmicky) synergy with Lafayette as well as Mexico. Are there any other civs with that many traditions? As far as I know, most (if not all) others have 3 or 4.

 

[bengalryan9]

It's a fairly bland civ. I don't hate it, but I typically forego it in favor of other options. I do find wall spam somewhat enjoyable, though.

Their traditions don't impress me very much, but I find it interesting that there are 5 of them, which could make for some interesting (albeit likely gimmicky) synergy with Lafayette as well as Mexico. Are there any other civs with that many traditions? As far as I know, most (if not all) others have 3 or 4.

I thought about this when doing the writeup - nobody else thus far has this many. Greece has 4, I believe.

 

[Renouf]

Speaking of buying; gold on farms is fantastic. It's strong, and it fits them thematically. It's fun to see your profits lift off when you start a celebration. It should have been one of their traditions; at least the baseline (non celebration) part. I feel that alone would make them much stronger pick.

100% agree! The farm gold being a tradition would make them a lot more fun. Hoping they get that swapped around in a balance update.

I thought about this when doing the writeup - nobody else thus far has this many. Greece has 4, I believe.

In Antiquity, Greece, Rome, Maurya and Maya all have 4, but yeah 5 is unique to these guys. Considering some of those traditions are pretty meh it seems like this was an intentional choice to give the Chevalers +5 Combat strength from Norman traditions. But at least it gives them a place in the game - they shine in Lafayette Rome -> Norman (+4 from Rome, +5 from Norman, x2 from Lafayette = +18 CS) and Charlemagne Maurya -> Norman (+4 from Maurya, +5 from Norman, +5 from Charlie = +14 CS and happiness focus). Don't forget to bring Charlie's Tencendur memento so your Chevalers get extra CS against enemy cavalry

 

[Doratov]

It's a fairly bland civ. I don't hate it, but I typically forego it in favor of other options. I do find wall spam somewhat enjoyable, though.

Wall spam can be quite effective if you go for the synergies. With the assyrian tradition, you get 1 science, with the rebalanced Forbidden City, another culture and gold on all of them. The Normans have a tradition that can help crank them out faster, and since Thành Huế is uncontested even on deity, you get an extra specialist reward in your cities for building up your defenses.

 

[Chefofrats]

I like the Normans. I once chose them playing as Charlemagne, and my army of horsemen was unstoppable. All the gold my farms provided me with allowed me to buy anything I wanted. I'm not a min-maxer, but I love historical flavour in my Civ games, so I just love the motte-and-bailey district: it simply looks great, and actually provides decent bonuses, too.

Are they the strongest Exploration civ? Of course not, but I find myself drawn to them, anyway. If I haven't unlocked the Abbasids, I will often go for Normans in Exploration.

 

[stealth_nsk]

They look like good all-around choice. Free walls, plus faster embarked scouts and settlers are great things even if you play peacefully.

 

[Calcifer]

Does anyone know if the bonus movement when embarked applies to treasure cargo now?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Does anyone know if the bonus movement when embarked applies to treasure cargo now?

Good catch! I didn't check, but it should be, since treasure convoys are civilian land units now.

 

[pjotroos]

Does anyone know if the bonus movement when embarked applies to treasure cargo now?

It does. I mentioned it in my post above.