Civ III and archaeology dissertation, can you help?

[Meryt Amun]

Hey guys,

I'm a gamer and archaeologist, and have combined the two for a new dissertation topic looking at video games and perceptions of ancient Egypt etc.
If anyone can share any comments/opinions on the games then that would be great.
Particularly, have they affected your interest in archaeology/ancient Egypt, and what are your opinions on their portrayals, graphics, accuracy etc.
Alternatively (or even better, as well!) you can do my quick online questionnaire
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/YXPM3YQ.
Every little counts, so thanks in advance!
Happy gaming.

Meryt-Amun

 

[MysteryX]

All I can say is, though I play the Egyptians frequently, I almost never am able to pull off getting the Great Pyramids, which is kind of disappointing.

 

[Raliuven]

We had a lively discussion about the Pyramids as it related to the game here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=451017

And, of course, discussing the merits of the UU the war chariot though I think that was more a question of its effectiveness rather than its origins.

 

[KevinLancaster]

Sorry for derailing a bit, but Raliuven, I was irked by your belief that the Pyramids were built by slaves in that thread. Don't quote me on the following, since I don't have a history degree (maybe Meryt Amun could help clear it up).

I believe it was Herodotus who originally stated that the Egyptians used slaves. However, Herodotus, despite being the "father of history" was also one who could not resist a good story. I have read that historians currently do not believe that they actually used slaves. The Nile flooded at a certain time each year, replenishing soil nutrients. However, during that time no farm work could be done. Considering that the ancient Egyptians had a strong belief in mysticism, coupled with the Pharaohs' claims to divine power -- that he caused the river to flood and renew the earth -- it would not have been difficult for him to motivate an idle populace into working for him. Yes, he could have used force; but he probably didn't have to. His subjects would have done it willingly, to celebrate the god-king who had made the harvest so prosperous.

 

[marceagleye]

They DID use slaves. It would make sense that the labor force was not 100% slaves. Someone had to give the orders. But your claim that no slaves were used isn't justifiable. If every worker who participated in the building of the Pyramids was a paid worker, where did all that money come from? Pharoah didn't spend that way he spent for horses, chariots, soldiers and whatever armies he needed to defend his kingdom. Every great civilization of the ancient world used slave labor in some form or another. And it wasn't Herodotus it was Moses in the book of Exodus who first wrote about Hebrew slavery in Egypt. Though Exodus does not specifically recount the building of the Pyramids, the Hebrews there were lifelong slaves whose primary job was to make bricks for masons to use for building whatever Phaoroh wanted. But not all the slaves were brickmakers. Many were farmhands, servants, general laborers, and of course, masons' hands.

 

[nyarmondt]

I guess a whole damn lot of those workers - be them slaves or not- did not get any money at all. Currency was a rather new invention by the time that a certain number of pyramids were build already. So I don't really think that one has to break his head with the question of "where the money came from". The "paid" workers would have probably gotten a salary, in its most ancient form, being a block of salt.
But what KevinLancaster said, is also my opinion. Plenty of workers just participated out of religious drive. A belief in an afterlife, coupled with a God-King ho descents to the heavens, probably fueled the idea that if you helped your God-King and then you die, you'ld probably score good points entering the heavens - where your God-King rules eternally.

On topic: Civ did not really help into broadening my knowledge of Ancient Egypt. I was already interested in history before I rolled into Civ, so I already knew a thing or two about them. Granted, I had good teachers, and me following Latin at school with a teacher who was a civilopedia on his own about all things Ancient History, the civilopedia of Civilization only learned me at best 1% of the knowledge I have about them. On the other hand, the differences between the cultures back then was small. The only thing civ-specific was the colour, the name of your leader and the names of your founded towns. And most of that, you could change that too... Aah, the days of the original civ ))

I never gotten into civ2, so I can't give an opinion about that, and now I'm stuck at CivIII, because my laptop is not what you might call powerfull.
And while CivIII gives each different tribe a bit more body, with the UU etc, it came also way later in my life. Hence, the civilopedia was a few steps behind on my own RL knowledge gathering. Because by that time, I had done a year of history at university...

The thing is, the evolution of the different tribes in this game tends to not follow earths history at all. This game is far from being a time-machine, as more-often you will re-write history.
I've sent the Greeks into space countless times, the Byzantines dominated the world twice already - but also once achieved victory through carefull diplomacy, the Russians wiped every single civ from the world once, the Celts were just grand by the time the historians were anxious to do something else, etc,etc...
There are no civ-specific sciences, and there's only 5 different building-styles in the game, whom are more region related as something else.

While this game might kindle the flame of interest for history, it certainly is not a valid source... unless offcourse your initial level of historical knowledge is almost down to nothing. Which implies that this player is either very young or not at all that much interested in history.

 

[Raliuven]

All I can say is that you must not have read my entire post. In addition, I wasn't the one to make the claim it was made by slave labor - that was CommandoBob. You have as much basis for claiming that the pyramids were not built by slaves as I have to say that they were. But I am not saying that they were, I am saying that we don't know. If you can give me a link or a resource that is the ultimate authority on the issue and they have made a proclamation then I would very much like to see it.

Regarding slavery in the ancient world. Sure it didn't exist and none of the materials for the pyramids were the fruit of slavery. Slavery exists in our world today. I'm not demonizing the past but I am not romanticizing it either. Like all rulers that derive their power from divinity, the Pharaoh was pretty much free to do what he wanted with the lives of his subjects (at least the commoners) without retribution. After all, he was a walking god. Even by the definition provided by Theov that pretty much sums up what you discribed.

If the definition of a slave is "a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant." (dictionary.com) then no, I wasn't sarcastic.

But what KevinLancaster said, is also my opinion. Plenty of workers just participated out of religious drive. A belief in an afterlife, coupled with a God-King ho descents to the heavens, probably fueled the idea that if you helped your God-King and then you die, you'ld probably score good points entering the heavens - where your God-King rules eternally.

I gather my opinions from many sources and not just one, least of all the Bible or Herodotus. Certainly not the History Channel. I don't discount them either.

Back on topic:
I can very much say that if the pyramids are built in one of my games than the conquest of a neighboring civ and its enslaved population was most certainly responsible for its construction.

 

[nyarmondt]

Just to make things clear: I never stated that I think there has been no slave labour involved in the building of the pyramids. Slavery was as much wide spread throughout Ancient History as is paid labour now. There probably was a good mix of slaves, volunteers and salary workers involved in this grand opus. What I do not know is what the exact ratio was. And until the moment we invent how to make a TARDIS, we'll never know for sure.

Oh, and no, it did not raise my interest in Ancient Egypt. In fact, I think Ancient Egypt is a bit boring... I always preferred the Ancient Greeks, the Celts and the Roman civilization.

 

[Abegweit]

It's generally accepted that the Pyramids were built through the corvee system. E.g. serfs were obliged to give a certain amount labour to their rulers. This is typical in all feudal systems. I seriously doubt that there were any volunteers. There may have been some slaves.

 

[Cyc]

Hey guys,

I'm a gamer and archaeologist, and have combined the two for a new dissertation topic looking at video games and perceptions of ancient Egypt etc.
If anyone can share any comments/opinions on the games then that would be great.
Particularly, have they affected your interest in archaeology/ancient Egypt, and what are your opinions on their portrayals, graphics, accuracy etc.
Alternatively (or even better, as well!) you can do my quick online questionnaire
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/YXPM3YQ.
Every little counts, so thanks in advance!
Happy gaming.

Meryt-Amun

The game inspired me to do quite a bit of historical research. Information in the civilopedia waffles a lot, while still being informative, mainly points at what highlights of the civilization the game maker wants you to look at. So, yes. Civilization did increase my interest in Egypt. Probably not archeology, although we owe most historical information to that science.

All the Middle Eastern civilizations were very well portrayed in the game. All of them. As well as most all of the other civilizations to follow throught the world. Maybe the Incas, or a few others could have had more time spent on them. But in order to justify a statement like that, one would have to research if they had no prior knowledge. That's an increase of interest. Even if you only wanted to be critical of the civilopedia.

That's my point of view for your post, although you may just want people to take your survey.

And for those of you that don't believe the Pyramids were built by slaves, I have some swamp land I'd like to unload. The line forms to the right. Free labor is what this world is built on. Free labor is one of the main reasons America is the country it is today. Throw a dart at the map and I'm sure you'll hit a nation that employs (or has employed) slavery outright to meet it's goals. On any continent, for any type of reasoning. You can make any excuse you want, but it all means the same thing.

Yes, I'm sure there was paid military and engineers present at the Pyramids. I'm sure there were religious fanatics who volunteered their time for a higher good. I'm sure they were all fed and housed. So what? Weren't the blacks in the South fed and housed, unless we starved them and made them live outdoors? Oops, now I've gone too far. Sorry, time to go.

 

[Civinator]

In terms of modding Civ3 I can say, the slot for the Egyptian civ in C3C is the most problematic slot, as it seems for this civ Firaxis made a special programming for the early use of landunits. Therefore in my mod CCM I had to do a special solution for the upgrading of a common autoproduced unit to a settler unit, otherwise the Egyptian civ -and only the Egyptian civ - would have killed that autoproduced unit or sent it with very bad attack values into early fights instead of upgrading the unit to the much more valuable settler unit, as all other civs in this mod did without problems.

 

[Raliuven]

@ Civinator - not to go wildly off topic, but do you think (know) this issue was to encourage it to make use of its early UU? Why is it not a problem with other Civs that have an early UU?

 

[Civinator]

@ Civinator - not to go wildly off topic, but do you think (know) this issue was to encourage it to make use of its early UU? Why is it not a problem with other Civs that have an early UU?

Raliuven, you have to ask Firaxis about the reasons for this anomalie. But it is fact, that in CCM I had to give Egypt an own building for autoproduction of settlers, as the Egyptian AI didn´t accept the upgrading of the autproduced clan, nevertheless what settings I gave to the clan unit.

 

[Fulton]

Since I'm asking for help on my own paper, it seemed only fair to do your survey.

 

[Meryt Amun]

Thanks guys for all your comments and doing my survey! I will read through everything properly and reply again. Just doing the last stage of my draft, busy times... I will post the results for anyone interested

 

[Kyriakos]

Good luck with your essay

And if you know of any site with good 3d images of ancient Egyptian monuments, i am interested since i would like to model a new ancient Egyptian set in the future...

 

[Kyriakos]

And to give you an idea of the scale:

 

[MPK]

On the subject of the Egyptians using slaves to build their Pyramids and Temple complexes is generally a false belief. There would have been a small percentage of Foreign slaves, but they would have been in general terms well cared for. Many foreign workers actually supplied worked for payment. The Egyptians during most of their Dynasties up to approx the 20th Dynasty, excluding pre-Dynastic (no data) use their own people to help build these buildings. The usual means for this was 1 member of every family, usually a male member was enlisted to give the Empire 1 years labour in construction work for the Pharaoh and the Royal members.

 

[Raliuven]

On the subject of the Egyptians using slaves to build their Pyramids and Temple complexes is generally a false belief. There would have been a small percentage of Foreign slaves, but they would have been in general terms well cared for. Many foreign workers actually supplied worked for payment. The Egyptians during most of their Dynasties up to approx the 20th Dynasty, excluding pre-Dynastic (no data) use their own people to help build these buildings. The usual means for this was 1 member of every family, usually a male member was enlisted to give the Empire 1 years labour in construction work for the Pharaoh and the Royal members.

And what happened if they refused?

 

[Cyc]

And what happened if they refused?

I believe that's the wrong question. You're substantiating his claim. A better question would be can you prove this? And I don't mean being pointed to a book written by some academic who was enlightened by Alla or God or his Fairy Godmother. Ask him if he can prove it.