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What Can Civ VII Learn From Humankind and other games?

I'm putting this here and not on the part of the Forum dedicated to Humankind despite the Amplitude title in the Thread title, because I want to focus on what can be adapted, rejected, modified, stolen or otherwise found useful specifically for Civ VII. And I'm focusing on Civ VII because I don't want the discussion to be constrained by what is possible with the Civ VI mechanics and game engine.

Having played about 6 games of the Humankind Victor Open Dev, I've got a better 'feel' now for what works and what doesn't in that game which prompted this in the first place.

First, I absolutely DO NOT think that Civ should simply copy anything from Humankind. Aside from little matters of legality under copyright/trademark law, the two games have very different basic concepts, and even the most enjoyable part of one game will not translate to the other game without modifications.

Case in point:
Humankind allows you to change Factions up to 6 times in the game, whereas Civ has always had you play One Civ, One Leader from start to finish. Civ has built on this concept of theirs by throwing a massive amount of resources into making the One Leader fully-animated, voice-actored character in its own right, whereas Humankind presents you with 'avatars' that are pretty generic and not tied to the individual Civs/Factions at all.
So, keeping Civs' Leaders, how do we get the chance to modify our Civ in-game to cope with changing in-game conditions? IF I start playing a Civ that is all characteristic (Unique) attributes and units from the Ancient or Classical Eras (Egypt, Sumer, Qin's China) how do I open up my ability to modify that Civ when faced with, say, a Modern Era major war?

Right now, Civ VI provides Uniques that are tied to the Civ and others tied to the Leader - which allows scope for Alternate Leaders, but that doesn't mean you can 'alternate' during a game, you just start out with a slightly different set of Uniques for your Civ. Providing a whole range of Alternate Leaders you can adopt during the game is simply impossible given the amount of resources required for each one.
However -
What if the Leader remains the same, but the Unique attached to that Leader can change during the game? You pick, perhaps, from a set of characteristics provided that are either historically semi-accurate or appropriate to the Ancient/Starting Era, but under certain conditions, you may attach different Uniques to your Leader later in the game. These might replace or augment what you started with (I like the continuity of augmenting rather than replacing, and it makes more sense if we are maintaining the 'Immortal Leader' as at least the figurehead of our Civ)
We might have a historical Attribute for a Leader that is appropriate for his/her time and place in History - Ancient for Hatshepset of Egypt, Renaissance/Early Modern for Phillip of Spain, Modern for Adenauer of Germany, etc. IF the Leader chosen is not contemporary with the start of the game, there could be a set of Uniques available from which to choose that are appropriate for the given Era. Adenauer could start out as a religious megalomaniac Tomb Builder, or Roosevelt as a pastoral tribal raider. The 'generic' Uniques available could be tied to the Leader's later ability or his/her historical character/ability (or what we think we know of it) or they could be completely generic, allowing considerable leeway to the gamer. I personally like the idea of having both: you can embrace the fantasy or the historical at your whim.

That's for a start. Other points of discussion I'd suggest are:

1. Maps: Humankind's are drop-dead gorgeous, but don't show the infrastructure on the map. How can we keep the gorgeous and also keep the on-map visibility of structures and infrastructure that we've come to expect from Civ VI?
2. Combat: In a nutshell, 1UPT, 1UPT modified, or Tactical Battles with stacks and all the trimmings? Humankind's tactical battles are intriguing and open up possibilities for all kinds of 'tactical attributes' for unit types, but no question, they are almost by definition Micromanagement.
3. City Management: Civ's Builders versus Humankind's automatic exploiting of surrounding tiles, regions versus individual tiles, 'generic' or near-generic Districts versus very specific District/Quarter types, etc.
4. Victory Conditions and Types: Civ has lots, Humankind has exactly one, but several ways to get to it. We've batted around Victory types in these forums for ages, maybe it's time to Simplify?
5. Resources: Humankind requires multiple types for some Units, Civ requires 'stockpiles' of amounts to build, both tie resources to Trade but Humankind has a lot of additional benefits from specific resources besides generic Luxury, Gold, Food, etc. How complicated do we like or want it?
6. Tech Tree: Humankind basically goes back to the Civ V and earlier type of 'complex' multi-Tech tree, compared to Civ VI's 'bare bones' tree with Eurekas. Is there a way to get the best of both, or do we think both types suck like a starving leach and want to try something new - we can ring in other games' examples here, like the 'tech bush' of BE or the Blind Tech of SMAC.
7. Civics/Social Policies. Civ VI separates them, Humankind has a lot fewer, but each requires a decision that 'moves' your Faction in one direction or the other. Humankind has a whole bunch of 'triggered' decisions that range from temporary one-city bonuses or maluses to more permanent changes in your Civ/Faction. Again, how complex do we really want to go? The Humankind system reminds me a lot of the EU "Events and Decisions" random events, which was Modded into Civ V and maybe deserves another look for Civ VII in some form.

Historic accuracy: Most of the Civ games has a starting age of usually 4000 BCE. In reality. All the major Continents had been reached by about 13,000 years ago. So maybe Civ VII can have starting date of maybe 10,000BCE would be more appropriate. This would give Civs time to develop things before reaching the Common Era(0 AD).

Realistic Map: One game franchise that Civ can learn from in this regard. SimCity. Especially SimCity 4 and 5. Maybe Civ VII can includes streets and roads and terrain, like seen in SimCity, within a Civ territory. Bring back public transit from Civ III. And maybe even have little people walking about.

The Black Market: Narcotics can be a resource to trade with. Start with Opium which was a major course of trade at the turn of the 20th Century.

Casinos. This can be part of the Entertainment district. And a major boost to culture.
 
Historic accuracy: Most of the Civ games has a starting age of usually 4000 BCE. In reality. All the major Continents had been reached by about 13,000 years ago. So maybe Civ VII can have starting date of maybe 10,000BCE would be more appropriate. This would give Civs time to develop things before reaching the Common Era(0 AD).

The "Neolithic Start" - which the new Humankind game has, and I've ben arguing for, because a host of Civ's early Technologies were actually discovered and exploited long before the 4000 BCE nominal Start of Game and virtually none of the historical Civs in the game started by building cities in 4000 BCE and most of them nowhere near the area on the map where they wound up building cities. A running - or at least, Hunter-Gathering- start is long overdue in the game.

Realistic Map: One game franchise that Civ can learn from in this regard. SimCity. Especially SimCity 4 and 5. Maybe Civ VII can includes streets and roads and terrain, like seen in SimCity, within a Civ territory. Bring back public transit from Civ III. And maybe even have little people walking about.

I look at the maps in Humankind and Anno 1800 with their populations actually populating their cities, and mutter under my breath that Civ's cities are so static . . .

The Black Market: Narcotics can be a resource to trade with. Start with Opium which was a major course of trade at the turn of the 20th Century.

Casinos. This can be part of the Entertainment district. And a major boost to culture.

Opium was a trade good and diplomatic bribery product back early in the 19th century, and addictive substances like alcohol, coffee, and chocolate were all major and lucrative trade goods going back to the Classical Era (for alcohol).

Casinos, Thermal Bath Spas, Resorts of all kinds and not just Seaside, Railroad Grand Hotels and vacation/Amenity Improvements like Sarasota, Brighton Beach, Aspen, and similar 'resort' destinations should enliven our Industrial and later Eras - with Thermal Spas going, again, all the way back to the Classical Era. A few ski and seaside resorts are only the beginning . . .
 
I actually have a mixed feelings about Humankind starting in the neolithic era and prefer 4000 BC start. I think the only reason Humankind does it is because in this game you race to unlock and choose a set of appropriate cultures every era, and playing in neolith gives you room to get ancient cultures this way, but I see no reason for that system to appear in the game called Civilization which already begins with Egyptians etc.

1) The game is devoted to the scale of civilization building, not management of a very tiny hunter gatherer tribal group. On that tiny scale it makes no sense to have cities, scientific advancements, population growth, military engagements etc - so basically you lose the entire gameplay and instead you get what exactly?
2) I have played that "prehistoric era" mod for civ5 but not for long, since I just found it so utterly bizarre to have prehistoric "cities" which have "buildings" like caves, cave paintings, huts and stuff like that, which again - on this scale it belongs at best to the Villages and Barbarian Camps :p
3) So what if continents got peopled by hunter gatherers by 10,000 BC? The earliest agriculture was invented in Levant around 8,000 BC, and that's in the Levant - it took millenias for it to spread across Eurasia (even longer for Africa). The first civilizations developed (strangely) roughly simultaneously around 3,000 BC, with Egypt, Mesopotamia, Indus Valley and Caral beginning then. The proto - civilization phase for them stretches up to - guess when - 4,000 BC. And those are the very first forerunners - it took until 2th millenium BC for any civilization to develop in China, Greece and Central America, until late 1st millenium BC for Celts, Persians and Southern India, 1st millenium AD for second half of Europe, Korea, Japan, South East Asia and most of Africa...

What am I trying to say is that it makes sense for me to place the beginning of a Civilization game at the stage just before the actual very earliest urban state civilizations started arising, instead of an era thousands of years before the actual history (not archeology or prehistory) begins anywhere.

"But it gives us realistic time to research technologies such as animal husbandry, archery, spearmen, archeoastronony, fishing, sailing etc"
Realistically those technologies shouldn't be researched in a game like this at all, because they are much older than civilization and not exclusive to it :p
 
Traditionally, "Civilization" meant "Cities" and that's the concept around which Sid and his successors have built an entire game franchise - and an Extremely Successful one at that. But the very dichotomy between 'Civilization' and Others is now suspect, since technological, cultural, and political sophistication does not require cities at all, and so the basic interaction between City and Civilization, although still linguistically present, is not so evident in historical or archeological reality.

1. The game is devoted to the scale of civilization building. Except that it is a very sliding scale, ranging from founding cities to building individual granaries and farms, from decades-long trade route interactions to individual fights between spearmen and archers. In other words, the 'scale' ranges from relatively small groups of men and periods of a few hours to centuries. To speak of 'scale' in the game is meaningless. Focus of the game, on the other hand, is relevant, but again focusing on building cities to build a Civilization is a false dichotomy, and even in that focus one ranges from city, religion, technology and cultural developments to the actions of individual artists and governors - Great Ones, but still individuals in the supposedly Civ-wide population.
2. All the attempts at 'prehistoric' starts and eras in Civ 5 and other Civ versions were automatically imperfect, because they made the same distinction that the basic game makes, assuming that the 'Pre-Era' includes no city or settlement building IRL and little or no cultural, religious, or 'civic' development. Humankind's 'Neolithic Start' just barely avoids that trap: you can place settlements ("outposts') in the Neolithic, you can build up population, but you cannot develop any distinctive cultural attributes or technologies or expand any 'settlements' into Cities, so they only get it about half right.
3. The earliest agriculture was not, we now know, limited to the Levant. At the moment the earliest evidence of 'neolithic agriculture' is from a site near Kermanshah, Iran dated to about 9800 BCE, while the earliest evidence in the Levant is of cultivated figs at Jericho around 9400 BCE. In the 'four corners' of southwestern North America between 9000 and 8000 BCE there is evidence of potato (jamesi type) being specially prepared as food: whether it was completely 'gathered' or cultivated is still debated, but given that they developed specialized pottery containers and cookware for it, it seems like too much effort for something you are hoping to find rather than planting where you can get it regularly.
In addition to agriculture of any kind, food animals like pigs, sheep and goats (10000 - 9000 BCE) and cattle (8500 BCE) were all domesticated for food, and the earliest locations are also scattered: pigs in the Levant and separately in China, sheep/goats in the Levant and Iran, and cattle in northwestern India. Also, we tend to overlook the immense amount of food obtained from water or marsh: fowling and fishing provided enough food to feed good-sized permanent settlements, and even off-shore whaling was practiced as far back as 6000 BCE (Korea) and 5000 BCE (Scandinavia).

As for cities themselves, they predate the 4000 BCE Start of Game, also in several locations:
Jericho (Levant/Palestine) - by 8400 - 8300 BCE was a walled city of 40,000 square meters with a population estimated as 2500 - 3000, Neolithic stone tools, but cultivated wheat, figs, sheep and pigs for food.
Motza (modern name) - near modern Jerusalem, by 7000 BCE had estimated 2000 - 3000 people, farmed wheat, barley, lentils, and traded with Egypt and Anatolia for Obsidian and seashells (amenity/production goods!). Two 'trading partners' were Nevali Cori (modern name) near Gobekli Tepe in Anatolia, which by 8000 BCE has the earliest DNA evidence for cultivated einkorn wheat, and Asikh Hoyuk (modern name) in central Anatolia, estimated 2000 + people, an obsidian source.
Catal Huyok in Anatolia had an estimated 5-7000 people by 6500 - 6000 BCE and may have done the earliest metal smelting - lead - before 6000 BCE.

In China, the Pengtoushan culture in the central Yangtze region between 9000 - 7500 BCE had the first permanent settlements in China, evidence of cultivated rice by 8200 BCE. The Dadiwan culture to the northwest in China by 7900 - 7500 BCE had earliest evidence of cultivated millet, and ceremonial architecture: raised earth platforms supporting at least one building 4500 square feet in size.

Seskla (modern name) in Thessaly, northern Greece, had an estimated 5000 people by 5000 BCE, cultivated wheat and barley, domesticated cattle, sheep, goats, pigs and dogs, had glazed, decorated pottery

Mehrgahr (modern name) in Pakistan, between 7000 and 5500 BCE one of the earliest agricultural sites in south Asia, cultivated barley, wheat, earliest DNA and archeological evidence (post holes for pens and corrals) of domesticated cattle

And just taking our 'historic' Civs, note that the first five cities in Sumer all date from just before 4000 BCE, while another 'historic' city, Ugarit on the Mediterranean coast, dates back to at least 6000 BCE, by which time it already was fortified with stone city walls.

In short, there was a lot going on pre-4000 BCE in more than one part of the world, and I haven't even touched on the technological developments, that in the period 10000 - 4000 BCE include Animal Domestication, Agriculture, Irrigation, Stone-working, glazed and decorated Pottery (and note, the Potter's Wheel dates to at least 1000 years before 4000 BCE), Boating (paddles, not sails or oars), Wine-making (and trading), and Metal-Working (in silver, gold, copper and lead).

Now, most of this activity cannot be related to a straightforward linear Tech Tree or the type of directed development the Civ game has used for years: whether a simple settlement developed into a centrally-directed City with heirarchy and ceremony and 'government' was really dependent on the terrain and resources available and the ease with which resources could be exploited and developed. Basically, I think the Eureka system could become the major source of tech development until you get a city with all the 'trimmings' - ceremonial buildings, religious structures/shrines, and a leadership people will pay attention to - basically, something to hold the city population together when things get tough (numerous early cities, Catal Hyok being a prime example, were simply abandoned when drought or other negative factors hit them).
Those developments, by the way, are as much related to Civic/Social Policy-type development as Technological development: there were several ways to feed a city (animals, cultivated plants, fish, waterfowl, etc) but without the concept of Heirarchy (someone in charge who is not just the senior family member) and some kind of 'government' (tribal council, senior Priest, God King) the city remains a collection of families and cannot be led and developed the way Civ expects cities to develop.
The game, then, could have a 'Take Off' point where the city/settlement develops enough 'city characteristics' to start having the regular Tech Tree and Civic developments 'kick in' and the normal game begins - but that point, like the advance to the first regular Era in Humankind. would not be fixed: you could be wandering or living in small settlements for quite some time if you don't have access to the exploitable resources or reason to develop any further technically or socially.
 
^ That's developer's question, a tough nut to crack.
IF CIV7 continued the traditions that 'game begins with a settler and one or two warriors', then the game should begin in 7,000-10,000 BC or what?
Actually about city walls, the graphical representation in Civ6 Ancient Walls is cyclopean wall. which you said 'exists before 4,000 BC' ? (with Jericho, Uruk, Ugarit and so more already had ones by 4,000 BC).
mmm Then the wall developments should be
1. Cyclopean Walls (may or may not require any tech)
2. Mason Stonewalls (Late antiquity or early classical era)
3. Citadel
4. Castle
5. Bastion /Star Fort
6. Defense Battery (Palmerston Fort) *
7. Bunker *
8. Flakturm* **
9. SAM Battery* **
* Doesn't require preexisting 'walls',
**provides AA and anti-ballistic missile defenses.
 
So about the cities and the traditional definition of civilization, what with hunther-gatherer and city less civs like the Shoshone and Cree?
Also civs like the Huns and Scythians shows the problem of nomadic ones (at least mongols have some founded by them).

Have an earlier era with nomadic mechanics open the chance to justify that kind of civs instead of be regular urban people with some forced "nomad" flavor.
 
So about the cities and the traditional definition of civilization, what with hunther-gatherer and city less civs like the Shoshone and Cree?
Also civs like the Huns and Scythians shows the problem of nomadic ones (at least mongols have some founded by them).

Have an earlier era with nomadic mechanics open the chance to justify that kind of civs instead of be regular urban people with some forced "nomad" flavor.

Very good questions, and they need better answers than Civ's "Stuff Everybody into the City-Building Box whether they belong there or not".

There are hints in Humankind, although I don't think they went far enough with some of them, and there are needed representations of City State civs that are still missing.
In HK, in the Neolithic, Hunter-Gatherers can find Science, Influence, and Food 'bonuses' that allow them to increase their numbers (which can be abused so that you can start a Civ with 20+ Scouts upgraded magically from tribes and try to rush you neighbor) and get some Science bonus. Make the Science bonuses applicable to actual IRL Neolithic Technologies like Pottery, Masonry, Boating, Agriculture, Animal Domestication, etc and allow the 'outposts' the gatherer units can build to exploit Resources, and there's a set of mechanics formodeling an extended Non-City-Building start as a real option in the game.
HK also has two 'nomad' cultures, Huns and Mongols, who can form horse-archer units from Food and victories over enemies, but cannot Upgrade their Outposts to Cities, which comes close to modeling the unique attributes of the pastoral societies. Of course, to incorporate some kind of similar mechanic in Civ you'd also have to model the start of those cultures: the horse-riders all started on foot, and didn't become mounted until after 4000 BCE, and didn't become horse archers until near the end of the Ancient Era - after 1500 BCE. But I think the basis is there to give us another option: the pastoral 'Civ' that builds only 'outposts' or 'settlements', can use them to exploit Resources (pastorals traded and worked a lot of metal to the Mesopotamian Civs snd my even have pioneered some very sophisticated metal-working techniques, like lost-wax casting, so there is historical precedent for allowing 'nomads' to achieve Technological Progress) and with clouds of horse archers seriously 'inconvenience' their more settled neighbors.

Bottom Line: the City = Civ model is simply inadequate to show all the possibilities of human societies and needs to be enlarged before another iteration of Civ gaming buries all the rich diversity into an artificial City-Building straitjacket.
 
Each civ should have their own tech tree and military units based on their culture. For example, all Southeast Asian civs would have access to a War Elephant unit, and all Nordic countries (such as Norway or Sweden) would have access to Berserkers and Longships. There is more than enough historical material to give them civ-specific unique units as well.
 
Each civ should have their own tech tree and military units based on their culture. For example, all Southeast Asian civs would have access to a War Elephant unit, and all Nordic countries (such as Norway or Sweden) would have access to Berserkers and Longships. There is more than enough historical material to give them civ-specific unique units as well.
While horses and camels were domesticated and breeded, elephants are basically captured and trained, that is why I dont like the idea of civs producing elephants out of nowhere. So if they are common to any civ those civs should have a bias to start close to wild elephants.

By the way I like the idea of have regional civs types because that would be closer to what is supposed to be a CIVILIZATION, a bigger region made of many different states/peoples/cultures with common broader elements, we can talk about Western/European civilizations not the absurds like "Canadian civilization" we have now.
Each regional groups of civs would share common regional mechanics, techs, civics, customs, units, buildings, etc.

This also would be better for me since would be a nice reason to reduce the over representation of modern western civs. Western/European world see itself as a common civilization, you know greek culture and christian religion influenced romans and they propagated them, then come the germanic peoples to expand their dynasties all around Europe, later invaded some other continents and remplazed most of their native peoples. So I think is time for western civs to enjoy their auto impose common identity and become the "vanilla" regional group of civs and let that the others regions be really unique and be more that one or two interchangeable "representatives".
 
The reason for the neolithic era is by the way mainly gameplay. Letting you explore the map a bit beforehand is a tremendous „intro“ into the game. How you actually fill it lore-wise, sure there can be better ways than „caves“ as buildings. Keep it simple and tuned to the gameplay needs.

I also came to the ideas of abilities shared by several civilizations. I‘d call them flairs or legacy: Like „Legacy of Rome“ for all Western Europe ones. Sure, there might only be one civ with Berzerkers at the start, but they can give that flair to more. Also works for the early sea exploration ability - see I think in gameplay here. Not sure though if „elephants“ should follow that model, as pointed out above they are dependent on available ressources/the environment, but maybe for simplicity‘s sake it‘d be better? These „flairs“ can be more flexible than strict regional groupings, which run into the danger of countless debates on „does X belong to Y or Z“? Why not give them both flairs and balance them some other way or imbrace the imbalance! Also, „nomadic lifestyle“ would be one of them…

So Civs would have their own uniques, one or more shared „regional/technical“ flairs giving non-unique bonuses, maybe some bonuses based on their environment (elephants?) and the leader based uniques. And here follows a quick excursion on how I imagine that leader system for my perfect game:

I‘d make it so you can have several leaders that you change 0-3 times during the game and that changes your civilization: Starting with Augustus as Rome, and then when you chose Lorenzo di Medici, your civ becomes more Italian. Or you can do it the other way around. In historical mode, these are locked making the „bigger civs“ (say France) implicitly better/more flexible than the smaller ones (say Mapuche) who can‘t change as they only have one leader. Some leaders are also shared between Civs in the historical mode - Charlemagne for example - whereas there are no restrictions in the basic mode for balance reasons, but also for entertainment. :) Also this may be how to include colonial nations seamlessly - though sadly it reduces the number of civs around. It however can be an easy buff for earlier civs when introducing new leaders. Simon Bolivar open ups options for the Inca AND the Spanish - or maybe he‘s really good with the Japanese in the free for all mode. :)
 
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The reason for the neolithic era is by the way mainly gameplay. Letting you explore the map a bit beforehand is a tremendous „intro“ into the game. How you actually fill it lore-wise, sure there can be better ways than „caves“ as buildings. Keep it simple and tuned to the gameplay needs.

I also came to the ideas of abilities shared by several civilizations. I‘d call them flairs or legacy: Like „Legacy of Rome“ for all Western Europe ones. Sure, there might only be one civ with Berzerkers at the start, but they can give that flair to more. Also works for the early sea exploration ability - see I think in gameplay here. Not sure though if „elephants“ should follow that model, as pointed out above they are dependent on available ressources/the environment, but maybe for simplicity‘s sake it‘d be better? These „flairs“ can be more flexible than strict regional groupings, which run into the danger of countless debates on „does X belong to Y or Z“? Why not give them both flairs and balance them some other way or imbrace the imbalance! Also, „nomadic lifestyle“ would be one of them…

So Civs would have their own uniques, one or more shared „regional/technical“ flairs giving non-unique bonuses, maybe some bonuses based on their environment (elephants?) and the leader based uniques. And here follows a quick excursion on how I imagine that leader system for my perfect game:

I‘d make it so you can have several leaders that you change 0-3 times during the game and that changes your civilization: Starting with Augustus as Rome, and then when you chose Lorenzo di Medici, your civ becomes more Italian. Or you can do it the other way around. In historical mode, these are locked making the „bigger civs“ (say France) implicitly better/more flexible than the smaller ones (say Mapuche) who can‘t change as they only have one leader. Some leaders are also shared between Civs in the historical mode - Charlemagne for example - whereas there are no restrictions in the basic mode for balance reasons, but also for entertainment. :) Also this may be how to include colonial nations seamlessly - though sadly it reduces the number of civs around. It however can be an easy buff for earlier civs when introducing new leaders. Simon Bolivar open ups options for the Inca AND the Spanish - or maybe he‘s really good with the Japanese in the free for all mode. :)

Some very interesting ideas here. I think Civ is pretty much wedded to the Historically-based Leader = Historical Civ as a baseline for the game, but there has been at least one Mod hat allowed any leader with any Civ, and perhaps they should add that as an Option like Map size and type - it would change the playstyle with each Civ a lot more than changing the map would!
 
A bunch of good points, that deserve separate answers:
The best thing about Humankind's "Fame" Victory, is that it is impossible to progress, let alone win, by completely specializing. You need 7 Fame 'stars' to progress from Era to Era, and can get no more than 3 stars in any one category: being the consummate Warmonger, or Scientist, or Artist/Cultural Guru, to the exclusion of all else, will lose the game every time. The Fame Victory system forces you to pay attention to several aspects of the game at once, unlike Civ VI where you can focus (in fact, Have to focus) n a single thing (religion, military, culture, etc) on one thing only to win.

That is like adding a bottleneck, where one miss to fill all requirement, may stuck in one era... I long advised this in Civ... with the Pyramid shared project to exit the pre-flood era...
 
Each civ should have their own tech tree and military units based on their culture. For example, all Southeast Asian civs would have access to a War Elephant unit, and all Nordic countries (such as Norway or Sweden) would have access to Berserkers and Longships. There is more than enough historical material to give them civ-specific unique units as well.
I think this idea could be expanded even more by saying that, to be honest, there needs to be even more of a difference when playing different civs.
 
I really dislike the idea of a civ - specific tech trees for three reasons.

1) It is unrealistic to expect that from developers - a ton of research, design and balance pain for too little gain.
2) It has the same problem as those constantly recurring proposals "ooh every civ should have its own great people and architectural wonders". It's easy to do that for civs like China, but then you have to invent fictional fantasy stuff just to fill the void for certain other nations who don't have nearly as long and/or documented history. In fact, there are more such "problematic" cultures that "complete" in this regard, so you end up with an intent to introduce more historicity, only to end up with a ton of fictional stuff lol. Or you just copy the same tech tree to many cultures anyway, which defeats the purpose.
3) There are many technical and intellectual prerequisites to many innovations that seem to be necessary no matter what culture it is. You simply cannot have physics without mathematics, engineering without physics, modern science without calculus, industrial revolution without thermodynamics, social changes resulting from industry without industry, a lot of stuff without metallurgy etc. In fact I'd go even further than that, right into the controversial territory, and claim that
the development of philosophy and culture had to go through some universal and necessary motions - but as I said this is my own controversial take and that's secondary concern. Anyway, the point of point 3) is that a TON of techs would probably have to be identical across cultures anyway, especially the further you go into tech tree and natural sciences.


So, to sum up, I think that "civ specific tech trees" would actually be an enormous headache to implement, requiring a ton of filling the gaps with guessing and alternate history, just to end up with tech trees that would still require a lot of civ - independent connections if they were to make common sense. At this point, it is too work for too little gain.
 
I agree, that's why I proposed flairs, because that is really what is wanted, some sort of special ability or section of a tech tree for a group of civs - keep all the rest the same. It's easier and more fun for players than making all those unlocks depend on the map and other conditions (which probably would be more historical).

OR

Just do some sort of split between "nomadic" and "cities" lifestyle for the first half of the game. I feel like that is another main point of divergence here. (Regardless of historicity ;-)).
 
So, to sum up, I think that "civ specific tech trees" would actually be an enormous headache to implement, requiring a ton of filling the gaps with guessing and alternate history, just to end up with tech trees that would still require a lot of civ - independent connections if they were to make common sense. At this point, it is too work for too little gain.
Hmm, yes, I can certainly see why these issues would arise. Perhaps a few ways to avoid this would be to do what mitsho suggested about flairs and also to have a few other "base" technologies that would be made quite a bit easier depending on what civ you played as, beyond like advancing a bit because you did something. But I think there ought to be some other and quicker way to advance it that would be more civ dependent.

And, these other issues (besides 3 to some extend) would not really exist as much with the civic tree. I think changing that to be like the civ you played as would work better (ie different government systems they have historically used being available quicker and ones they have not available later).
 
I agree, that's why I proposed flairs, because that is really what is wanted, some sort of special ability or section of a tech tree for a group of civs - keep all the rest the same. It's easier and more fun for players than making all those unlocks depend on the map and other conditions (which probably would be more historical).

OR

Just do some sort of split between "nomadic" and "cities" lifestyle for the first half of the game. I feel like that is another main point of divergence here. (Regardless of historicity ;-)).

I've come around to the conclusion that Uniques, Emblematics, 'flairs' or any other kind of specific special attributes have to be a combination of Innate and Situational.
As in, starting on the coast gives you a bonus to discovering Naval-related technologies, starting next to an Elephant Resource should give you an opportunity to build Elephant units, having a God-King as your leader should give you an opportunity to build massive Pyramids as tombs for said God-Kings, and reap benefits from doing that because you learn a lot about organizing masses of labor and materials which can be applied to other (more useful!) things. These are all Situational 'advantages'
But no combination of situational actions or terrain can account for some of the peculiarities of historical Civs. What triggered the Greeks to start thinking about Natural Philosophy instead of Monotheism? What combination of social, political, civic, technological, terrain backgrounds brought about Confucian teachings, schooled bureaucracies and the resulting stability of Chinese government administration for the next 2000 years? Some things, if they are going to be in the game, are going to have to be Innate - available by Fiat because, hey, you play China, you expect to have some Confucian Scholars sooner or later, and not Roman Consuls or an Athenian Strategos dragging a spear around in front of your Phalanx.

But I've also come to recognize that it's a very delicate balancing act deciding on what is Situational and what is Innate, or more exactly, what gamers will accept as Situational versus Innate. And for a decent gaming experience, there has to be a variety of 'flairs' (like the word, by the way) available when the game situation/starting position. etc doesn't allow you a 'historical' situational bonus. England in the Taklamakhan desert, about as far from any ocean as you can get on the planet, will not legitimately get any Sea/Naval bonuses, so what do you give them instead that feels in any way "English?"
And while that is not an impossible question when applied to the English, who after all have been around in some recognizable form for over 1000 years (assuming a dichotomy between 'Anglo-Saxon' and 'English/British'), what do we do about the Myceneans, Akkadians or Aztecs, who existed for one Era only, in one terrain/climate area, and with one culture/political form?

While I think it will be a 'hard sell' for Civ, I think the only answer is to introduce a form of 'progressivism' for the Civs, by including antecedents and descendant 'Civs' in the basic Civilizations offered to play. How to do this I'm still working out, but if I start out as Celtic Gauls, when I run out of Celtic Gaulish things in the Classical Era, I should have some semi-historical options for the rest of the game, and not just build a rather bland Gallic Civ using only 'generic' attributes from then on. For one thing, history shows us that conquering or assimilating another Civ changes your own Civ, sometimes in rather fundamental ways. Adopting a new and especially a foreign religion can change many or most of your Social structures. Being conquered does not usually result in the eradication of a culture, people, or Civ, but it almost always changes the culture/Civ profoundly: If my Anglo-Saxons or British Celts get conquered by the Germans or the Normans, my culture/Civ does not disappear, but what emerges a (relatively) short time later will be different in many ways from what I had before.

I want those kinds of options in the game: having Agamemnon as a Mycenean Leader whose Mycenean Civ by the Industrial Era has elements of Roman, Hittite, Scythian, and Egyptian social/civic/cultural attributes in it is fine by me, and doesn't require that I magically change my Myceneans into Romans, Hittites, Scythians or Egyptians in succeeding Eras, just that I interact with them in ways that change aspects of my own Civ - and that I as Leader under whatever name and title have to react to and manage in the game.
 
Agree in general.
But want to point to this.
..., what do we do about the Myceneans, Akkadians or Aztecs, who existed for one Era only, in one terrain/climate area, and with one culture/political form?
Aztec were on the plain arid scrublands of the Mesa Central, the coniferous forest in mountain valleys of the Sierras, the monsoon forest of the Balsas basin and the tropical jungles of Veracruz. Also some aztec atlépetl like Tlaxcala were republics unlike others like Mexico that were despotic monarchies.

I think is time that if CIV insists on use Aztecs instead of Mexicas they should recognize the others proper aztecs.
 
And now, for something Different . . .

Units



Naval Units:
Galley (2330 BCE)
Egyptian rowed coastal ships
Transport Galley (2330 BCE)
Egyptian rowed ships transporting troops along the coast
Pentekonter (700 BCE)
Last development of single-banked galleys
Trireme (550 CE)
Quinquereme (400 BCE)
Most common of the Polyreme warships
Cog (948 CE)
Used as transport and warship
Carrack (1420 CE)
First ship-type to carry large cannon in numbers
Caravel (1450 CE)
Carried only small guns
Galleon (1530 CE)
Both transport and warship, hull type developed into the:
Ship-of-the-Line (1660 CE)
Most complex human machine built to this time
Frigate (1740 CE)
Name used earlier, but this date: Medee, fist single-decked fast warship with cannon

4. At sea, the Carrack and Caravel developed at virtually the same time, but trhe Carrack was the gun-mounting warship (which Humankind does represent) compared to the Caravel, which was more of a Scout and 'contact' ship. The great Chinese 'Junks' could be considered their version of the Carracks, only bigger and with less in the way of cannon development.
5. Also at sea, there are probably more redundant types in all the games than anywhere else: in the Renaissance/Early Modern Era alone there are Caravel, Carrack, and Galleon following one after the other only a few turns apart, and then the Ship-of-the-Line and Frigate in the early 'Industrial' Era becoming Steam Frigates and Ironclads before the end of that Era: too many types too fast for any fun game.
.

And Civ 6 class of 'Naval melee' and 'Naval ranged'.... compaing with Humankind in a 'galley' era.
- In Civ6 Galley is melee ship (boardings and rammings no doubt), while Quadrireme is 1 hex ranged ship (representing on board catapults and ballistae mounted)
- In HK, Both Galley (Pentekonter) and Quadrireme are strictly MELEE ship (There were no ranged catapult ships in that setting) and the former upgrades to the latter. Also came with ability to board enemy ships (Not sure if this also comes with 'Prize ships' ability)
In reality. what are more corrects in pre-gunpowder naval warfare? What models of Ancient-Classical naval warfare do you agree more? Did catapult ships fight mainly as shooters rather than boarders or did ranged naval combat shown in Civ6 really exists or HK model more correct?
 
I would hope that they learn a lot more from Old World than Humankind. Namely the part about creating a game with coherent mechanics, where player input is rewarded, and most importantly releasing the game in a full and satisfying way instead of half assing every single thing possible.

Sorry if that was posted by someone else already.
 
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