Civ IV Economies

[nanomage]

^ yes, this is a strong point and i've missed it. Early game you can choose whether you work mines or run specs, so SE,HE are not totally contradictory.
Though running mines/workshops under SE is not the same - you do so only to build infrastructure asap, and, once it's up, you switch to specs for economy purposes.
I think HE implies working high-hammer tiles to produce science and wonders for failure cash.

 

[Learningciv]

^ yes, this is a strong point and i've missed it. Early game you can choose whether you work mines or run specs, so SE,HE are not totally contradictory.
Though running mines/workshops under SE is not the same - you do so only to build infrastructure asap, and, once it's up, you switch to specs for economy purposes.
I think HE implies working high-hammer tiles to produce science and wonders for failure cash.

I recently tested a series of offline games using HE as my principal economy and I found it very very similiar to SE early on. I found I could use a small cluster of cities running specs (i.e. 3-4 cities) to keep constant GP's being born. The ironic thing is that my most successful strategies involved running my capital as a pure cottage spam city and making it my super science city. I could keep my science slider at 100% due to building wealth or running merchants so I never lost the benefit of the science buildings (acadamy, oxford, etc). The best game even reached a late 400's liberilism date (marathon speed resulting in earlier dates should be noted here).

I want to continue testing this form of economy. Some things I still am very unsure about, such as when getting new key buildings how many cities build them immediatly verse how many wait? For example courthouse or forge, if you build them in all cities asap your tech rate goes on halt. If I had a particularly food heavy map I think I would try growing cities into unhappyness and then whipping new buildings (non of my maps were food heavy enough for this tactic). Once I swap into CS though whip doesn't become an option unless I am spiritual or in a GA.

 

[DampRain]

Early game would you still consider SE and HE fundamentally different? Before health/happyness allow your cities to really grow and you don't have a full selection of civics to choose from you are only going to be working a limited number of farm tiles and the choice to run specialists verse mines is still very much open. Of course once infrastructure to multiple hammers/gold/beakers is established the choice is easier but due to the cost and lateness aquiring these you can keep yourself open for a fairly lengthy period of the game.

I'm not an expect on hammer economies (or SE, but I have more xp with SE), but the elements of SE, and HE and FE will overlap considerably early game. All require food for either specialists/hammer tiles/slaving. In fact during the early game, don't limit yourself to doing this economy or what not, but rather trying to get the most out of your cities. Like you said, your choice only really starts to play a part when you have the infrastructure to specialise. You really answered your own question . If you have mids however, I think its fairly obvious what to go for ^^.

I think HE implies working high-hammer tiles to produce science and wonders for failure cash.

Science or cash is good , but as above poster said, it is very useful to run a capital commerce city to take advantage of the 100% slider at gold or beakers. Imo the strength of non pure cottage economies is the ability to have the slider at 100% for one thing. This means you get the most out of your super gold/science city (SE can use bureaucracy too ). Although I think this might be actually needing a math analysis to consider academies and 60-80% slider vs 100% slider and GMs (hybrid economy). I suspect it'll all depend on assumptions but will give a guideline on how things stand .

One point when comparing running specs to building beakers, is GPP, while later in the game GPP won't matter as much early game can significantly change your position.

I want to continue testing this form of economy. Some things I still am very unsure about, such as when getting new key buildings how many cities build them immediatly verse how many wait? For example courthouse or forge, if you build them in all cities asap your tech rate goes on halt. If I had a particularly food heavy map I think I would try growing cities into unhappyness and then whipping new buildings (non of my maps were food heavy enough for this tactic). Once I swap into CS though whip doesn't become an option unless I am spiritual or in a GA.

If you are running the 100% science slider, then I suggest you use caste system to mass generage and settle GMs in one city (future wall street, your gp farm city). This means your beakers won't creak to a halt once you need improvements. This kind of economy is a hybrid one . What were you doing with the GPs before? (excepting the first GS for academy). Your other cities as hammers can do whatever you need, research in peace, gold for mass upgrades or just an army to crush the world

 

[Crusher1]

Consideration need to be placed on traits too. During the early phases of the game you typically need research or wealth Asap to save your economy in some shape or form. If you plan on running a FE and you are not CRE or PHIL then building research/wealth is almost always a better choice than specialist barring there has been no COL slingshot with a Spiritual leader.

The reason being CRE can whip/chop libraries very fast and PHIL and specialist obviously become more attractive w/ GPP. W/out either one of these traits it simply takes to long imo for it to be worthwhile going the library route so just "build" research/gold instead.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, having a strong Bureaucracy Capital helps tremendously as does a solid GPF for bulbing (yes I bulb with HEs) because they both help maintain a solid research pace when the rest of your hammer cities are focusing on infrastructure. I like to keep it simple and use granaries, barracks, forges, and CHs. Libraries aren't important until I'm getting ready for Oxford. Roosevelt is particularly strong with this strategy with cheap forge/Ch/Lh because the saved time on infrastructure is quite helpful not to mention some nice shineys to complement the game plan.

 

[Learningciv]

If you are running the 100% science slider, then I suggest you use caste system to mass generage and settle GMs in one city (future wall street, your gp farm city). This means your beakers won't creak to a halt once you need improvements. This kind of economy is a hybrid one . What were you doing with the GPs before? (excepting the first GS for academy). Your other cities as hammers can do whatever you need, research in peace, gold for mass upgrades or just an army to crush the world

Pre-Lib I need a few scientists to settle super science acadamy, bulb philo, bulb once on Edu. Normally my Philo/Edu bulbs use my 3rd + 4th GP when i tried this type of economy which only leaves my 2nd GP free. Depending on global tech situation and what type of GP it is I would bulb trade bait if I could take advantage of the situation enough. If that isn't going to happen I would settle it (2nd GP is generally scientist as I haven't unlocked caste for merchants this early) in my super science capital. I tend to save GA's for later in the game.

EDIT: I only run the merchant GP farm settling them if I have a food heavy location for the GP farm. If I plan to use national epic + national park + tons of forests as my GP farm I tend to be more aggressive with bulbing and settling scientists plus trying to persue certain specialists for certain roles (mining inc, shrines, etc).

 

[TM Moot]

how about the best economy of all - a Hybrid Economy...........

 

[DampRain]

how about the best economy of all - a Hybrid Economy...........

There is no best economy! *smack*

XD, just kidding, but seriously, there is great danger in considering a economy best. As others have said, and will say so, there is place and time.

@Learningciv

What kind of difficulty do you play on? Also I consider waiting for NP be a little "late" in the game, since GPs appear to be stronger earlier (cottages are fully matured and CE is almost at full steam by the time biology is in game).

Also is there any GP farm which isn't food heavy? XD I'm going to automatically exclude a wonderspam city .

 

[Crusher1]

Also is there any GP farm which isn't food heavy?

When I run a CE I typically run a 2 scientist GPF because you don't need more =D, assuming you also have TGL and NE (you can always run pacifism too for a short burst to get your Liberalism beeline bulbs). This lets me stay in slavery/ORG religion and get infrastructure up quicker.

 

[Learningciv]

There is no best economy! *smack*

XD, just kidding, but seriously, there is great danger in considering a economy best. As others have said, and will say so, there is place and time.

@Learningciv

What kind of difficulty do you play on? Also I consider waiting for NP be a little "late" in the game, since GPs appear to be stronger earlier (cottages are fully matured and CE is almost at full steam by the time biology is in game).

Also is there any GP farm which isn't food heavy? XD I'm going to automatically exclude a wonderspam city .

I play on Immortal. I don't consider NP to be a little late considering I will have had a number of GP's already by then. Typically I have 4 GS's pre-lib (settle 1, acadamy 1, bulb philo, bulb on edu once). Late game you still want a steady influx of GPs to found Corps, start GA's (switching civics for free is free turns), etc. If you have had a ton of early GPs then you will have a hard time getting those late ones. Although I do agree early GPs are stronger NP still leaves plenty of time to take advantage of them. A food heavy site doesn't always present itself and sometimes you just have to make do with what you got. Other times the only food heavy sight might be at the expense of founding 3 other strong cities which could split the food between them.

As for non-food heavy GP farms a NP GP farm isn't food heavy. If you find a 15+ forest site for the GP farm you are looking at a large number of GPP's (15 GPs * 3 GPP each * 2 for NE, plus the artist point from NE plus does NP give 1 GPP?? easily looking at over 100 GPP). You don't even need so many since preserves tend to spread easily. Even with that many I won't always use them all. Sometimes I might just build forge+factory and run a few GE's to gaurentee I can hook up Mining Inc. A couple strong corps in your Wallstreet city can be gamebreaking, especially when heading for space.

 

[DampRain]

I'm tempted to claim NP doesn't count as its wonder but meh that is bad sportsmanship ^^". 16+ forest sites for me tend to be rare . But that is fair, do you tend to base your economy round a bureau Cottage capital then?

When I run a CE I typically run a 2 scientist GPF because you don't need more =D, assuming you also have TGL and NE (you can always run pacifism too for a short burst to get your Liberalism beeline bulbs). This lets me stay in slavery/ORG religion and get infrastructure up quicker.

Hmm actually, I'd like to hear your thoughts on running a hybrid compared to a CE using GS for academy (plus possible bulbs?) . Since I tend to go for a hybrid if I run a CE. ALthough funnily enough I'm guessing the answer will be "GS's for bulbs + academy in key places, then run a hybrid if you need it XD". Ahhh civ, what a wonderful game.

 

[Crusher1]

ALthough funnily enough I'm guessing the answer will be "GS's for bulbs + academy in key places, then run a hybrid if you need it XD". Ahhh civ, what a wonderful game.

Yes . My typical early build order with any civilization is to grow to happy cap with 2 workers while building 4-6 warriors then have my Capital knock out 3-4 settlers and then build a library (between 1800-1500 BC), run 2 scientist, while slow building (6-8t) 3 workers. The 1st scientist makes an academy (900-800 BCish) then stops running scientist and focus goes on working cottages.

At the same time my Capital had been working 2 scientist I'll have another new city start 2 scientist as well. The timing usually works out that they are started when the Capital is 4-9 turns from creating a GS which means I get my 2nd GS around 500-350 BC which is always used to bulb Philosophy. So 2 crucial early GS + fuel tech at a time when raw beakers are very important.

So my typical empire around 800 BC usually consist of 6 cities that look something like:

1. Capital with an Academy and beginning to work cottages
2. A dedicated unit pump set up in the BCs
3. A dedicated settler/worker pump
4. A random city running 2 scientist plus building research
5. A random city building research
6. A random city building research

This usually puts me in a very strong game position with the most economical and game specific paths available, ranging from REXing till all my land is gone, conquering enough land to REX into, and then deciding on what kind of economy I wanna run.

My GPF is generally beginning to be formed around 800-400 BC (from the 2nd city running 2 scientist in most cases). With marble or an Industrious leader I always get TGL while w/out I usually limit the city to the NE. Whether I run caste and a lot of scientist w/ Pacifism is dependent on the map, I.E., a very strong food site screams max # scientist as humanly possible.

Unless I have the Mids and am in Representation I love to aggressively bulb stuff like paper, education X2, Liberalism, PP, Chemistry. If I am in a FE I also like to bulb SM, Biology, etc. Hell, even if I do have the Mids, depending on the difficulty level and surrounding AI strength it could easily be best to aggressively bulb your way to a superior tech before mass settling.

Edit:

I'd like to hear your thoughts on running a hybrid compared to a CE using GS for academy (plus possible bulbs?)

I don't consider that a "hybrid" but a simple CE with a working GPF.

 

[Foamy7]

I personally prefer the Keshik economy.

 

[DampRain]

OMG *takes notes*. Why would you build 2 workers straight off though? Or do you find the improve things at a rate equal/faster than your pop uses + chopping purposes? O is it that and the fact the other workers come later so you'd need the two to get your new cities to at least grow . What happens if your capital is well... mediocre XD. "Play the map" Zomgd, I'm answering half my own questions as I ask them . Of course if there are better answers though


Although digressing briefly, in general you really wouldn't have mids unless you had the indust+ stone combo (which gets around the, o i have mids but only 2 more cities XD)

 

[Crusher1]

OMG *takes notes*. Why would you build 2 workers straight off though?

I don't. I like to build to the happy cap, then make 2nd worker so I can spam out some fogbusting warriors first. Another good method depending on the Capital is to use only one worker, grow to happy cap, and build your 2nd city very close to your Capital and steal a high yield tile which will be used to grow to size 2 or 3 very fast and with 1 or 2 more improved tiles will act as a full time worker pump while your Capital full time Settler pumps.

As for the Mids, you don't need Industrious if stone is present. CRE leaders make up the lost time quicker because they don't have to hassel with monuments.

 

[DampRain]

Argh, browser ate my post >.>

Anyway main question was, do you use math often as a planning tool or coming up with idea tool, instead of say, experimentation? .

 

[Crusher1]

No. I hate math and avoid it when possible, lol. Just check out the the "general" forum and the Globe Theater and you will see I truly despise math ^^. The opening of the game and build orders for every initial city is the most important imo so I put most of my focus in every game I play to about 1 AD. After that, if I managed things right the game is usually in a winning position.

 

[Phatshady912]

My biggest problem is knowing when to go for each type of economy. If I see any city spot with 3 or more food resources I go for specialists there, or if I see a long winding river I go for cottages there... but beyond those two somewhat rare city locations, I am usually pretty lost, or just as bad... if I find both, I get confused.... should I build pyramids for that GP farm.... or do I skip them and cottage up, basically I started playing like a week ago, and I know I should adapt to the land, just not sure how yet.

Is there some sort of strategy guide to help with learning how to play the land?

I'm especially confused on archepelagio maps, where I'm always torn between going for max trade routes, or specialists because of the abundance of seafood. I know I could try and do both, but chances are if I go for pyramids, then I won't get the great lighthouse, and if I go for temple of artemis I won't get the oracle... ect.

Like in my last game, I started on an Island and I was playing carthage, with the intent to mass traderoutes and win via space. I ended up losing the great lighthouse, then switching gears and getting pyramids, and great library... and eventually winning a really late cultural victory.

 

[DampRain]

@Crusher, so you'd base how well it worked by how strong it is at 1 AD? seems like ots of experimentation to me .

@phat
The two land sites you describe, tend to be important cities for all strats, the mass cottage and GP farm . However, an SE definitely requires all your cities with specialists to be able to have surplus food, whereas cottage doesn't so much. That can help you decide, although if still indecisive, just pick one and roll with it, later on think about how that worked, regardless of how it went, you now have more experience in is that eco good for that situation or not.

The mids isn't necessary for a GP farm, because if the GSs are used for academys and bulbs, well representation won't matter so much (it will if all your beakers are from specialists, , in which case the mids would be useful, but not absolutely necessary).

For archi, same thing really applies, just pick one and go for it. While you might not make the best decision, you will learn and can make a better one the next time. What difficulty do you play on btw? And what kind of victory do you go for? Because if you tend to war often, a TRE won't be as useful due to lack of foreign trade (because you are at war, well you won't lose all the foreign trade but you will have a proportion reduced) and you lose peacetime bonuses (I don't know the exact mechanics, there is however a link on page 2 to a the mechanics of trade routes). Similar for an SE, SE tends to benefit aggressive play since you can turn the science slider to 0-20 to pay for your army when it goes to conquer.

 

[Dirk1302]

I haven't read the gist of this yet but listen to Dave, there are no specific economies (only good play but that's a quote from myself).

 

[Shurdus]

@Crusher1:

The dates you mention for a first and second GS seem awfully fast to me. What speed is that on?