[R&F] Civ of the Week: India

[acluewithout]

• Leader: Ghandi and Chandragupta [Alternate Leaders].
  
  
• Leader Ability: (Ghandi) Satyagraha. +5 Faith per turn for each Civilization you've meet (including, er, yourself) that has founded a Religion and is not at War. Enemies receive double War Weariness.

• Leader Ability: (Chandragupta) Arthashastra. Can declare War of Territorial Expansion with Military Training instead of Mobilization, and when he does so gains +2 Movement and +5 Combat Strength for all units for the next 10 Turns.
  
  
• Civ Ability: Dharma. Receive the Follower Beliefs of all Religions that have at least one Follower in a City.
  
  
• Unique Unit: Giant Heffalumps (Varu). Replace much smaller less exciting Horsies (Horsemen), but actually count as Heavy Cav (upgrade to Tanks - vroom vroom). Go Stomp Stomp ( 40 Combat Strength v 36 for Sad Scared Horsies), but not so fast (2 Movement vs 4 Movement for Horsies, so Sad Scared Horsies can run away from Giant Heffalumps going Stomp Stomp) and more expensive (120 Production v 80). Giant Heffalumps also go Rumpta Rumpta (adjacent enemy units receive -5 Combat Strength for each Heffalump, which stacks with multiple Heffalumps). Maintenance 3. Also receive +1 sight. "But I give buns to the elephant I when I go down to the Zoo."
  
  
• Unique Infrastructure: Stepwell. Unique Improvement (requires one Builder Charge). Unlocks at Irrigation (which is otherwise "pretty bad"). +1 Housing (v Farms and stuff which give +0.5), +1 Food, +1 Additional Food if adjacent to a Farm, +1 Faith if adjacent to a Holy Site and +1 Buns if next to a Heffalump. You also get another +1 Housing at Sanitation and +1 Food at Professional Sports. Cannot be built on a Farm or adjacent to another Stepwell due to Zoning Restrictions and complaints from the neighbours.

• Leader Agenda: (Ghandi) Peacekeeper. Won't start wars where he'll be branded a Warmonger and likes peaceful Civs. Not a huge fan of Warmongers.

• Leader Agenda: (Chandragupta) Maurya Empire. Doesn't like Civs with Cities close to him and will try to conquer them. Likes Civs that are not his neighbours.

• Interesting links: [Sorry, running a bit late this week - these will come later!]

Notes:

• [Will come later].

 

[AmazonQueen]

According to Zigzagzigal's guide Varu are 3 maintenance.
I really like Varu for a horseman stomp (can't call it a rush with the rate they move).
Sure they are expensive and slow but they have a longer window of usefullness than horsies.
Play Chandragupta and beeline Military Training (not that hard, get it early classical era) and suddenly they can be fast and beat knights so long as you use them in groups.
Since they don't replace a unit you can still use horsemen for scouting/harassing the enemy

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It's been a while since I played India, but I think the Varu also have an undocumented +1 sight range.

Anyone care to test and verify or refute?

 

[Disgustipated]

I was thinking Khmer would be next, I even started a Khmer game yesterday. No biggie, I can finish that at a later time. As for India, it's always tricky which leader do I play. Each leader plays so differently as with the Greece leaders. I may try to play them both.

Dharma is a civ ability I find very questionable. Does anyone get any use out of this? How do you even check to see if it's working? I suppose the strat here is not to use inquisitors on your cities.

Varu I'm not a big fan of either mainly because of their expense. I didn't realize they stack though. You have a typo above, you wrote stakes, but I assume you meant stacks. I had no idea that bonus stacks. The production cost and maintenance are pretty high, and I find it easy to run out of money with an elephant rush, or stomp if you will.

Not the biggest Stepwell fan either, mainly because I don't like doing that much pre-planning so I don't get the most benefit out of this unique improvement from beneficial placement. I'll try to do better this game.

I'll play Gandhi first as that's the more challenging of the two. The question is, do I RP completely peaceful? I usually do. It will depend on my start I suppose.

Anyone care to test and verify or refute?

I'll check it out

King level/epic speed start. Map settings are a secret.

Spoiler :

 

[AmazonQueen]

I was thinking Khmer would be next, I even started a Khmer game yesterday. No biggie, I can finish that at a later time. As for India, it's always tricky which leader do I play. Each leader plays so differently as with the Greece leaders. I may try to play them both.

Dharma is a civ ability I find very questionable. Does anyone get any use out of this? How do you even check to see if it's working? I suppose the strat here is not to use inquisitors on your cities.

Varu I'm not a big fan of either mainly because of their expense. I didn't realize they stack though. You have a typo above, you wrote stakes, but I assume you meant stacks. I had no idea that bonus stacks. The production cost and maintenance are pretty high, and I find it easy to run out of money with an elephant rush, or stomp if you will.

Not the biggest Stepwell fan either, mainly because I don't like doing that much pre-planning so I don't get the most benefit out of this unique improvement from beneficial placement. I'll try to do better this game.

I'll play Gandhi first as that's the more challenging of the two. The question is, do I RP completely peaceful? I usually do. It will depend on my start I suppose.



I'll check it out

King level/epic speed start. Map settings are a secret.

Spoiler :

Dharma can be useful but given the amount of control over it you have its something I pretty much ignore. If you get a bunch of religious neighbours and don't go to war with them good but most of the time insignificant. Stepwells I think are quite useful, just not amazing like Outback Stations or Megewaps. Varu are great, much the best thing about India and Chandragupta can take much better advantage of them than Ghandi.

 

[Disgustipated]

It's been a while since I played India, but I think the Varu also have an undocumented +1 sight range.

Anyone care to test and verify or refute?

This still does appear to be the case. Compare the 3 tile sight range of my Varu compared to my archer down south of only 2 tiles.

Spoiler :

 

[Laurana Kanan]

It's been a while since I played India, but I think the Varu also have an undocumented +1 sight range.

Anyone care to test and verify or refute?

Yes, the Varu have a base sight range of 3 instead of 2 like the regular Horseman.

 

[Sostratus]

Stepwells are just wonderful little improvements, especially for hilly cities that otherwise wouldn't get much housing. Toying with Chandragupta I was able to get my capital to 25 pop in shockingly low amount of time without stacking trade routes- sub 200 turns in a 300 turn game (I know I don't play as fast as possible.) Kind of creates a kongo-esque strategy of having a fair number of high pop powerhouses, except you can control your religion. Personally, I find stepwells+work ethic belief + governor based bonuses (theocracy's faith from pop, communism's prod from pop) works well to scale out to an 8 city core of powerhouses. Lucky geography or conquest means you might even be able to pile on Casa Del Cont. and Colonial Taxes. Plus all the other captured cities that are really just Varu grazing fields.

Giant Heffalumps also go Rumpta Rumpta (adjacent enemy units receive -5 Combat Strength for each Heffalump, which stakes with multiple Heffalumps).

I didn't realize the varu stacked... regardless, it's an amazingly useful ability through much of the game. Especially when you come up against a Lautaro or a Defender of the faith Civ, or on higher difficulties, AI tech lead.

Actually, let me go back to stepwells. IMO they are a near perfect example of a unique improvement that's well implemented and well balanced. They offer a bonus with good flavor (housing->high pop,) they have several upgrades along the tech tree from more housing and food, and they interact with the terrain (including themselves- gotta plan!) It looks pretty cool to have a ring of 3 stepwells around a city center, with some farms. +2 food, +1 faith, +1 housing early game is really strong too. I just really like this improvement. Contrast with something like the Sphinx, which I feel is on the very weak end of things, and the Outback station, which has all the positive attributes of a stepwell but is eye-wateringly OP.

I like India.

 

[comatosedragon]

I have never played India; and indeed have not bothered to check this for myself, but I was always confused by the Ghandi UA:

Leader Ability: Satyagraha - +5 Faith for each Civilization you've meet (including, yourself) that has founded a Religion and is not at War.

Is that +5 faith per turn? I mean, I guess it would have to be. Be useless otherwise, right?

 

[AmazonQueen]

I have never played India; and indeed have not bothered to check this for myself, but I was always confused by the Ghandi UA:

Leader Ability: Satyagraha - +5 Faith for each Civilization you've meet (including, yourself) that has founded a Religion and is not at War.

Is that +5 faith per turn? I mean, I guess it would have to be. Be useless otherwise, right?

Pretty certain it is, and actually its not that much. Decent but compare it to a Lavra with Aurora.

 

[liv]

Chandra is a good warmongerer. But what is the path for Gandhi. He does not feel like he is good at anything?

ETA
And I forgot you can triple chop with them (varu, horseman, chariot)

 

[acluewithout]

It's been a while since I played India, but I think the Varu also have an undocumented +1 sight range.

Anyone care to test and verify or refute?

I was thinking Khmer would be next, I even started a Khmer game yesterday. No biggie, I can finish that at a later time. As for India, it's always tricky which leader do I play. Each leader plays so differently as with the Greece leaders. I may try to play them both.

Dharma is a civ ability I find very questionable. Does anyone get any use out of this? How do you even check to see if it's working? I suppose the strat here is not to use inquisitors on your cities.

Varu I'm not a big fan of either mainly because of their expense. I didn't realize they stack though. You have a typo above, you wrote stakes, but I assume you meant stacks. I had no idea that bonus stacks. The production cost and maintenance are pretty high, and I find it easy to run out of money with an elephant rush, or stomp if you will.

Not the biggest Stepwell fan either, mainly because I don't like doing that much pre-planning so I don't get the most benefit out of this unique improvement from beneficial placement. I'll try to do better this game.

I'll play Gandhi first as that's the more challenging of the two. The question is, do I RP completely peaceful? I usually do. It will depend on my start I suppose.



I'll check it out

King level/epic speed start. Map settings are a secret.

Spoiler :

This still does appear to be the case. Compare the 3 tile sight range of my Varu compared to my archer down south of only 2 tiles.

Spoiler :

Yes, the Varu have a base sight range of 3 instead of 2 like the regular Horseman.

I have never played India; and indeed have not bothered to check this for myself, but I was always confused by the Ghandi UA:

Leader Ability: Satyagraha - +5 Faith for each Civilization you've meet (including, yourself) that has founded a Religion and is not at War.

Is that +5 faith per turn? I mean, I guess it would have to be. Be useless otherwise, right?

I've edited the OP to reflect these.

Stepwells are just wonderful little improvements, especially for hilly cities that otherwise wouldn't get much housing. Toying with Chandragupta I was able to get my capital to 25 pop in shockingly low amount of time without stacking trade routes- sub 200 turns in a 300 turn game (I know I don't play as fast as possible.) Kind of creates a kongo-esque strategy of having a fair number of high pop powerhouses, except you can control your religion. Personally, I find stepwells+work ethic belief + governor based bonuses (theocracy's faith from pop, communism's prod from pop) works well to scale out to an 8 city core of powerhouses. Lucky geography or conquest means you might even be able to pile on Casa Del Cont. and Colonial Taxes. Plus all the other captured cities that are really just Varu grazing fields.


I didn't realize the varu stacked... regardless, it's an amazingly useful ability through much of the game. Especially when you come up against a Lautaro or a Defender of the faith Civ, or on higher difficulties, AI tech lead.

Actually, let me go back to stepwells. IMO they are a near perfect example of a unique improvement that's well implemented and well balanced. They offer a bonus with good flavor (housing->high pop,) they have several upgrades along the tech tree from more housing and food, and they interact with the terrain (including themselves- gotta plan!) It looks pretty cool to have a ring of 3 stepwells around a city center, with some farms. +2 food, +1 faith, +1 housing early game is really strong too. I just really like this improvement. Contrast with something like the Sphinx, which I feel is on the very weak end of things, and the Outback station, which has all the positive attributes of a stepwell but is eye-wateringly OP.

I like India.

I like India too. Sort of.

I like India, other that the Dharma ability. It's a very minor ability anyway, but the real problem is that it cuts across getting a religion and ensuring all your cities are faithful. Dharma makes most sense if you don't actually found your own religion which is fine in principle except: (1) Ghandi has other bonuses that actually encourage founding a religion, so that doesn't work, and (2) players have very little agency what religions are spread to them.

I really like the stepwell and Varu, although the former suffers from population just not being that useful (something I'm hoping gets better in the next expansion etc). The leader abilities are not that exciting but are fine.

I also think India is a great example of the type of Civ that should have an alternate leader (as is Greece). India's second leader, like Greece, really brings out an entirely different aspect of the Civ and completely unique gameplay. It also gives India a genuine leader, given that Civ's version of Ghandi is really quite divorced from reality at this point (particularly with the whole loves nukes thing now deliberately coded rather than just being a bug).

I didn't get time this week to work out links and discussion points, but here are three quick topics for discussion:

- Is India better played without a Religion and just using faith as key yield?

- Even if it's not the most efficient victory path, what can you do with high pop cities (compare Kongo and Khmer)?

- Does the ability to build high pop cities push India towards "tall" or "wide" play?

 

[Disgustipated]

But what is the path for Gandhi. He does not feel like he is good at anything?

Religious victory is the obvious path. But the +5 faith per turn isn't all that much, and the AI likes to war a lot in the first half of the game, so it's not that useful.

My game is an interesting one since Gorgo has just completely ran away on the other continent conquering civ after civ and city after city. I can't catch up to her in score. And with her in the game I'm forced to focus more in culture to defend against her culture victory, which means I can't focus on holy sites or religious victory. I really wasn't planning on a religious victory anyways, it's my least favorite victory type.

Seeing how easily Gorgo is dominating the game really puts things in perspective how weak Gandhi is compared to her. I'll get the win of course. But if the AI was playing my civ, they certainly wouldn't. I'm going to have to focus hard on theater squares and whatnot, and I'll go for cultural victory.

 

[Archon_Wing]

If you combine Gandhi's ability with some other faith pantheon, you can have a decent trickle of faith to buy units or Great People. Religion is probably a waste of time.

Started a game (Emperor/Normal/Fractal) with this:

Settled on the tea and sold it to someone nearby. Liberated a city state but couldn't really go any further until I got Varu out and then I noted I had like no gold. But fortunately Shaka came in and took the capital so that set off an emergency (and no I didn't liberate-- just pocketed the emergency money) Shaka even killed off Phillip so I didn't have to share! Unfortunately I was in a Dark Age, and had to burn cities, but at least the boost to Warlord's throne is nice.

Spoiler :

And honestly I have no idea why I took so long to make those Varu, but yea they wreck everything.

End

Spoiler :

 

[Disgustipated]

still not sure how you are supposed to pay for those things. In my case I was in a rush to get to Rome before they got legions, I didn't dare delay to build a commercial hub. I had to take tithe for one of my religion beliefs to help pay for these things. I actually had my first couple before I got to Oligarchy which makes things worse. At least when you get to Oligarchy you can run the mounted production card and Conscription.

 

[liv]

They are expensive but you can plunder or do peace treaties for quite a bit of gold then (if you are Chandra) use your declare war advantage and turn your troops towards you other neighbour and then rinse and repeat.

In the very beginning you sell everything for gold to be able to build up your force of a few elephants.

You may take out a city state first to see if you can trigger an emergency for easy cash

 

[Archon_Wing]

You don't have to mass the varu to be a threat. 2 Varu plus regular units can do the trick. Also you should use your first trade route to prioritize gold whenever you can secure it.

Autocracy can help too.

As Gandhi I was able to save some faith for a Great General. This also helps keeping your army more compact.

There's also no real reason to be afraid of legions if you've got Varu.

 

[Disgustipated]

There's also no real reason to be afraid of legions if you've got Varu.

True, they aren't faring as bad as I thought. I just attacked a Cavalry Corps with a single Varu. Obviously this isn't going to defeat units, but it helped weaken the unit enough so another unit could defeat it (A Varu corps defeated the cavalry corps). Jadwiga declared war on me out of the blue. I have a pretty small, outdated army at this point. But I'm fairing well so far.

Actually, I'm not too outdated, I had some musketmen, 3 to be exact. They just happened to not be near the front line.

 

[AmazonQueen]

True, they aren't faring as bad as I thought. I just attacked a Cavalry Corps with a single Varu. Obviously this isn't going to defeat units, but it helped weaken the unit enough so another unit could defeat it (A Varu corps defeated the cavalry corps). Jadwiga declared war on me out of the blue. I have a pretty small, outdated army at this point. But I'm fairing well so far.

Actually, I'm not too outdated, I had some musketmen, 3 to be exact. They just happened to not be near the front line.

That is remarkable. They may not be dominating the battlefield anymore but to still be useful for so long is pretty good.

 

[acluewithout]

That is remarkable. They may not be dominating the battlefield anymore but to still be useful for so long is pretty good.

I do like it when Civs have a unit that can be useful for long stretches of the game. Heffalumps are a good example of that thanks to their passive debuff.

A problem with the “one unique unit per Civ” approach is that many Civs only briefly feel unique in the battlefield. Rome is like that - it’s great when you have Legions, but then it’s over. Worse, sometimes your unit is so slight, it barely feels like you have a unit. Germany is like this - I love the little Das Boot, but it’s rare I get much use out of it.

One way FXS gets round this is to just give some Civs two units, but that has mixed success. It doesn’t work for England, because with Sea Dogs being so lame (seriously, just build Frigates), the Red Coat feels like their only unit. America has the same problem. But the mechanic works well for Alex (even if his both come along at the same time) and Harold.

Heffalumps last the whole game really, particularly with corps and armies (although I assume a corp or army gives you a flat -5 notwithstanding it's meant to be multiple combined Heffalumps). The Keshig is also like this as is the Jong.

Other Civs get around this by instead making a whole unit class their ‘sort of’ unique. Sythia does this with Lt Cav. Alex sort of does this with Heavy Cav, because he can get such highly promoted Heavy Cav units.

There is a lot to like about India. But gee-whiz that Dharma ability really lets them down. Has anyone managed to get any real use out of it?