Civ-specific ranks collection thread

[Ororo]

I'd like to see Konrad Adenauer somewhere around the top. He led BRD from a complete devastated hellhole to a prosperous, democratic icon in Europe. From my (foreigner's) point of view, he should be given the most credit for what Germany is today.

 

[ius_iurandi]

I'd like to see Konrad Adenauer somewhere around the top. He led BRD from a complete devastated hellhole to a prosperous, democratic icon in Europe. From my (foreigner's) point of view, he should be given the most credit for what Germany is today.

He could easily replace Kohl directly, or replace Merkel and reshuffle the order. One is not supposed to use post-WWII leaders, so it should be kept to a minimum, but I don't see how to avoid it with the Prussians.

(To be fair, I could re-write a combined list with HRE, but then we're going to end up with Prussians getting a Charles V (/some essentially Italian guy) rating, which just strikes me as wrong.)

 

[borhap88]

I'd like to see Konrad Adenauer somewhere around the top. He led BRD from a complete devastated hellhole to a prosperous, democratic icon in Europe. From my (foreigner's) point of view, he should be given the most credit for what Germany is today.

I agree.

 

[ius_iurandi]

This just struck me as better

How about:

Prussia[/B]

1.) Bismarck, (Otto von "The Iron Chancellor" Bismarck optional)
2.) Friedrich II (The Great)
3.) Friedrich Wilhelm, The Great Elector
4.) Friedrich Wilhelm I

5.) Konrad Adenauer - Great Idea, Ororo!
6.) Friedrich I
7A.) Helmut Kohl (Chancellor during reunification, 5 terms. I don't know Germans view him favorably now, but I think history will.)
7B-8A.) Angela Merkel (First woman, and I don't think it can be disputed that she's at least not too much worse than average, as politicians go)
7C-8B.) (If Kohl is too recent) Gustav Stresemann (maybe too high, but there would have been even Friedrichs and Wilhelms up here, otherwise)
(So pick two of bolded 3)

9.) Wilhelm I (Could really go anywhere. It was Bismarck's show.)
10.) Erich Honecker (Pick of the East Germans?)
11.) Willi Stoph (My last pick, really stretching my German history, here)
12.) Constantin Fehrenbach (I don't know much of him, but Weimar Chancellor during cirsis early years)

13.) Wilhelm II
14.) Frederick III
15.) Paul von Hindenburg
16.) Franz von Papen/Hilter (Hitler could arguably be rated higher, if we're going to be sociopaths about this.)

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

^If Merkel is average, then she should be in the third bracket.

1st Bracket: 1-4 The Best of the Best

2nd Bracket: 5-8 Solid, Good Leaders

3rd Bracket: 9-10 Average
11-12 Leaning Poorly

4th Bracket: 13-16 The Worst of the Worst

 

[Ororo]

My take on USA:

1. Abraham Lincoln (succesfuly led the country during Civil war; abolished slavery and thus ensured that all men are equal regardless of their race)
2. Thomas Jefferson (one of the founding fathers; during his rule US territory doubled thanks to Lousiana purchase)
3. George Washington (led a rising country against an established empire and won its independence)
4. Franklin D. Roosevelt (the only president to serve 4 terms, he succesfuly led country during WW2; arguably saved the economy with his New Deal policy)

5. James K. Polk (a very succesful president as far Manifest Destiny goes - annexation of Texas + Oregon purchase)
6. John F. Kennedy (led succesful negotiations during Cuban crisis, started Apollo program, fought against discrimination of afro-americans and is known to have been extremely popular among Americans; the only reason he is not placed higher is the failed Bay of Pigs invasion)
7. Theodore Roosevelt (don't know much about this segment of US history but I've mostly read positive stuff about him; furthermore there has to be a good reason why he is depicted on the Mt. Rushmore)
8. Woodrow Wilson (led USA during WW1, was one of the key characters to shape the Treaty of Versailles; major advocate of woman's suffrage)

9. Benjamin Franklin (one of the founding fathers, probably the most influential one)
10. Andrew Jackson (Iirc he was the only president not to increase USA's debt, he promoted democracy and liberty of individuals but is infamous for his Indian Removal Act)
11. Harry S. Truman (Marshall Plan, Truman doctrine and the controversial of nuclear weapons)
12. Dwight Eisenhower (glorified general during WW2, minor advancements in foregin policy - Korean War, Iran; during his rule USA experience economic prosperity)

13. Warren G. Harding (once again I don't know much about him but he's ranked really low in Firaxis rank)
14. Dan Quayle (enough said )
15. Jefferson Davis (exact counterpart of Lincoln, a very incompetent leader which lead the secession states in order to retain the slavery)
16. James Buchanan (I can't think of anyone else as utterly incompetent as he was; the whole nation was torn apart because of his inability to find a solution to the crisis)

Criticism (even the non-constructive one) is welcome.

 

[trexeric]

Dan Quayle has to be at the bottom. It's tradition.

 

[Hippo8085]

Very much agreed. I may move Polk down to Jackson and move Jackson ahead of Franklin.

 

[ius_iurandi]

My take on USA:

1. Abraham Lincoln (succesfuly led the country during Civil war; abolished slavery and thus ensured that all men are equal regardless of their race)
2. Thomas Jefferson (one of the founding fathers; during his rule US territory doubled thanks to Lousiana purchase)
3. George Washington (led a rising country against an established empire and won its independence)
4. Franklin D. Roosevelt (the only president to serve 4 terms, he succesfuly led country during WW2; arguably saved the economy with his New Deal policy)

5. James K. Polk (a very succesful president as far Manifest Destiny goes - annexation of Texas + Oregon purchase)
6. John F. Kennedy (led succesful negotiations during Cuban crisis, started Apollo program, fought against discrimination of afro-americans and is known to have been extremely popular among Americans; the only reason he is not placed higher is the failed Bay of Pigs invasion)
7. Theodore Roosevelt (don't know much about this segment of US history but I've mostly read positive stuff about him; furthermore there has to be a good reason why he is depicted on the Mt. Rushmore)
8. Woodrow Wilson (led USA during WW1, was one of the key characters to shape the Treaty of Versailles; major advocate of woman's suffrage)

9. Benjamin Franklin (one of the founding fathers, probably the most influential one)
10. Andrew Jackson (Iirc he was the only president not to increase USA's debt, he promoted democracy and liberty of individuals but is infamous for his Indian Removal Act)
11. Harry S. Truman (Marshall Plan, Truman doctrine and the controversial of nuclear weapons)
12. Dwight Eisenhower (glorified general during WW2, minor advancements in foregin policy - Korean War, Iran; during his rule USA experience economic prosperity)

13. Warren G. Harding (once again I don't know much about him but he's ranked really low in Firaxis rank)
14. Dan Quayle (enough said )
15. Jefferson Davis (exact counterpart of Lincoln, a very incompetent leader which lead the secession states in order to retain the slavery)
16. James Buchanan (I can't think of anyone else as utterly incompetent as he was; the whole nation was torn apart because of his inability to find a solution to the crisis)

Criticism (even the non-constructive one) is welcome.

I'd argue that, if you're going to include a post-WWII Republican, one should take Reagan over Eisenhower.

I'd say TR and Wilson should be ahead of Polk. Both won Nobel Peace Prizes, and Theodore's impact on US global presence was substantial. Polk is neither lionized by the contemporary public nor academia as much as TR or WW, and shouldn't be.

Jefferson Davis wasn't incompetent as much as outmatched. He wasn't the Confederacy's problem, manpower was. I'd replace him with Richard Nixon. Nixon-to-China was important, but Watergate overshadows everything.

 

[Ororo]

Revised list:

1. Abraham Lincoln (succesfuly led the country during Civil war; abolished slavery and thus ensured that all men are equal regardless of their race)
2. Thomas Jefferson (one of the founding fathers; during his rule US territory doubled thanks to Lousiana purchase)
3. George Washington (led a rising country against an established empire and won its independence)
4. Franklin D. Roosevelt (the only president to serve 4 terms, he succesfuly led country during WW2; arguably saved the economy with his New Deal policy)

5. John F. Kennedy (led succesful negotiations during Cuban crisis, started Apollo program, fought against discrimination of afro-americans and is known to have been extremely popular among Americans; the only reason he is not placed higher is the failed Bay of Pigs invasion)
6. Theodore Roosevelt (don't know much about this segment of US history but I've mostly read positive stuff about him; furthermore there has to be a good reason why he is depicted on the Mt. Rushmore)
7. Woodrow Wilson (led USA during WW1, was one of the key characters to shape the Treaty of Versailles; major advocate of woman's suffrage)
8. James K. Polk (a very succesful president as far Manifest Destiny goes - annexation of Texas + Oregon purchase)

9. Andrew Jackson (Iirc he was the only president not to increase USA's debt, he promoted democracy and liberty of individuals but is infamous for his Indian Removal Act)
10. Benjamin Franklin (one of the founding fathers, probably the most influential one)
11. Harry S. Truman (Marshall Plan, Truman doctrine and the controversial of nuclear weapons)
12. Ronald Reagan (Raeganomics, ended the Cold War)

13. Warren G. Harding (once again I don't know much about him but he's ranked really low in Firaxis rank)
14. Richard Nixon (Watergate, the only president ever to resign)
15. James Buchanan (I can't think of anyone else as utterly incompetent as he was; the whole nation was torn apart because of his inability to find a solution to the crisis)
16. Dan Quayle (enough said )

Sorry about Polk, I thought Americans viewed him more positively because of the land additions. At least my history teacher (in Britain, not USA, depicted him as a very solid leader though we haven't covered TR nor WW)

 

[trexeric]

Hmm... perhaps Washington and Jefferson should trade places? More of a common perception thing than anything else.

Why is Ben Franklin on the list (and so low, for that matter)? He never technically led the United States, even if he was a Founding Father. He should probably be replaced withe someone else with an adequate term.

 

[Ororo]

Hmm... perhaps Washington and Jefferson should trade places? More of a common perception thing than anything else.

Why is Ben Franklin on the list (and so low, for that matter)? He never technically led the United States, even if he was a Founding Father. He should probably be replaced withe someone else with an adequate term.

Let's see what others think about Washington v. Jefferson.

Franklin is there because of his contributions to USA's independence; he may not have been an actual leader but then again neither was Gandhi.

 

[trexeric]

But then why so low with Franklin? If he is considered an American leader, then he should at least be ranked highly.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

To much American talk, let Leoreth decide, we have moar than enough lists for them.
Revised Russia, with fewer Communists and no semi-mythical ones. Not my fault that even the greatest Russian rulers have nearly all been autocrats & sociopaths. Disregarding actual conduct more for popular perception and legacy.

1. Pёtr the Great (Traditional has to be no. 1, whatever the effects, no Tsar has had more impact)
2. Vladimir I (founding of Russian state)
3. Ivan III (for driving out the Tartars and reessartion of Russias)
4. Yaroslav the Wise
5. General Mikhail Kutuzov (my 1 leader exception, Napoleonic wars)
5. Ekaterina the Great (again controversial)
6. Ivan Grozniy (obvious)
5. Aleksandr II (probably the best of the post-Peter Tsars; ironically assasinated, literally blown in half)
6. Mikhail Gorbachёv (Hard case, a great-man ruined by difficult circumstances or delusional Communist dreamer?)
7. Iosif Stalin
8. Aleksandr I
9. Mikhael I (founder of Romanovs)
10. Paul I (assasinated liberal Tsar who wanted to reform the country)
11. Nicholas I (one of the most reactionary Monarchs of one of the most reactionary Dynasties in history)
12. Aleksandr III (the brezhnev of the Tsarist era)
13. Leonid Brezhnev (the Brezhnev of the Brezhnev era)
14. Boris Yeltsin
15. Nicholas II
16. Vladimir Zhirinovsky (anyone Russian will understand)

Anybody got comments on this?

 

[blizzrd]

To much American talk, let Leoreth decide, we have moar than enough lists for them.
Revised Russia, with fewer Communists and no semi-mythical ones. Not my fault that even the greatest Russian rulers have nearly all been autocrats & sociopaths. Disregarding actual conduct more for popular perception and legacy.

1. Pёtr the Great (Traditional has to be no. 1, whatever the effects, no Tsar has had more impact)
2. Vladimir I (founding of Russian state)
3. Ivan III (for driving out the Tartars and reessartion of Russias)
4. Yaroslav the Wise
5. General Mikhail Kutuzov (my 1 leader exception, Napoleonic wars)
5. Ekaterina the Great (again controversial)
6. Ivan Grozniy (obvious)
5. Aleksandr II (probably the best of the post-Peter Tsars; ironically assasinated, literally blown in half)
6. Mikhail Gorbachёv (Hard case, a great-man ruined by difficult circumstances or delusional Communist dreamer?)
7. Iosif Stalin
8. Aleksandr I
9. Mikhael I (founder of Romanovs)
10. Paul I (assasinated liberal Tsar who wanted to reform the country)
11. Nicholas I (one of the most reactionary Monarchs of one of the most reactionary Dynasties in history)
12. Aleksandr III (the brezhnev of the Tsarist era)
13. Leonid Brezhnev (the Brezhnev of the Brezhnev era)
14. Boris Yeltsin
15. Nicholas II
16. Vladimir Zhirinovsky (anyone Russian will understand)

Anybody got comments on this?

Why is Krushchev not in the list?

 

[Bair_the_Normal]

16. Vladimir Zhirinovsky (anyone Russian will understand)

Anybody got comments on this?

So. True. Great list as a whole.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

I took Khrushchev off because there were too many Communists already.
Not as important as Stalin or Gorbachev, and not as a good joke choice like Brezhnev.

 

[blizzrd]

Krushchev arguably led Russia at their peak power (around the time of the Cuban missile crisis during the Cold War) though. Which Stalin and Gorbachev did not.

 

[spartanlegend]

My knowledge of Russian Tsar's is not very great so I trust your list which looks good there. I have some thoughts on the communists though.

I'm surprised that Lenin got the boot from that list considering he founded the USSR, led the October Revolution and the fledgling state through the Civil War against both domestic and foreign armies, founded the third international, was a major political theorist, got an entire political tradition named after him (Marxist-Leninism) and was turned into a demi-god by Stalin and his descendents. I like to see some of those Tsar's on the list achieve that.

He may not be vogue with some circles in Russia but then neither is Hitler, Mussolini or Vlad the Impaler but no-one denies their importance to their countries.

Even if you don't agree with Marxism, Leninism and Communism you can't exactly pretend he didn't exist. Probably the only communist figure that could be higher is Stalin because of his longevity and influence over the 1930's and Second World War.

Khrushchev was decent...not great...but he did preside over the period of de-stalinisation and tried to calm things down in the Cold War (including that whole 'Cuba' thing) at least in an attempt to keep the Soviet economy going.

Brehznev was important, long-lasting, but the Soviet-Union started its terminal decline under him. He probably should be higher then Khrushchev.

Gorbachev should be down the bottom of the list, considering that average life expectancy dropped 10 years in Russia after he played a role in crashing the USSR. Really the USSR was doomed as nationalist program in a world of globalisation and it couldn't keep up so he doesn't deserve all the blame. Still, I think anyone finishing a game and being told "they had the leadership qualities of Gorbachev" would assume they failed.

 

[Zaduzai]

I think Lenin should not be in list. He´s impact to history is huge of course.
(Maybe even more than ever now because of China... country which is most successful communist, nationalist and capitalist country and they some how manage to run all those civics same time

BUT he was not statesman - he could been, but he died before that could happen and Stalin "had to take lead". So Lenin impact is in theories he made and that why he is known everywhere - not because he was very short time kind of leader of nation which was later known as Soviet Union.

And is good thing that there are not too many leaders from last hundred or so years - communist or not. Every list should have leaders from different eras to reflect nature of game.

And about Zhirinovsky that is good joke. Everyone in Finland too understand that.