Civ VI to Civ VII: What to Keep, What to Change or Discard Part One: Civs and Leaders

[Zaarin]

Considering they've been in all the game since Civ 1, which there were no expansions, I'm sure they've been in several base games.

Well, I can't say I have the previous civ rosters memorized so...But after posting I recalled they were a base game civ in Civ4 as well. But they weren't a base game civ in 3, 5, or 6 so my point stands.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As to 'Required" Civs, I think it has been established that there have been a number of variations in what was Basic/Original in the game between Civ 2 and 6. In addition, though, there have been distinct differences in the way that the same Civ was portrayed in the various iterations of the game.

I think, therefore, that while having a particular Civ in the game by name may be important for Marketing purposes (selling a game in the USA is a lot easier if the USA is included in the game: kind of a No Brainer Rule), equally important is how the Civ works in relation to the other Civs and that particular game's design. In this, the designed name of the Civ may be utterly unimportant: one of my favorite ways to play the game is to take a Civ that is similar in characteristics to the Civ I want to play but isn't available, and then rename the cities to those of the Civ I want. After all, I never see the Leader I'm playing, so it's immaterial In-Game. Just finished a game playing as the Kushan Empire - actually, Sukritect's Burma, which is a Diplomatic (City State) Cavalry-heavy Civ: graphics for the Uniques are wrong, but I can live with that to get a big inland Trading Civ with a large army of Heavy Cavalry.

Point being that it may be very important to have the 'right' Civs at the start for Marketing Purposes, but may be equally or more important to design Civs that Play Well and Uniquely within the game's design. In that respect, having Heavy Agricultural, Trading/Commercial, Naval, Militant, Pastoral, Scientific, Religious - type Civs in balance is as important as the title of the Civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Point being that it may be very important to have the 'right' Civs at the start for Marketing Purposes, but may be equally or more important to design Civs that Play Well and Uniquely within the game's design. In that respect, having Heavy Agricultural, Trading/Commercial, Naval, Militant, Pastoral, Scientific, Religious - type Civs in balance is as important as the title of the Civ.

k
Interestingly enough we didn't really have a Scientific powerhouse until the first expansion, in Korea.

That might be a way that the Maya could possibly appear over a perennial recurring civ like the Aztecs, at least in the base game. That's disregarding the fact if they decide to add in Science bonuses to either Greece, America, England, Russia, France, Arabia etc. which all could be appropriate. Or maybe they could just go to Babylon again.

 

[utahbutmakeitatheist]

QUOTE="Alexander's Hetaroi, post: 16021474, member: 306056"]The only European civ that maybe shouldn't have been in the base game was Norway[/QUOTE]
fair, that's up to you
personally, I don't find the European civs (for the most part) to be the most interesting, so I was fairly liberal with my cuts.
Also, I counted both Greeces when I was counting civs to pass judgement- I definitely think that we could have gone without one of them.

I understand balance but no Germany?

In my brain-fantasy they are one of the first to be added after the game's release, maybe even Aztec style? I like them and all but in my world they aren't the most necessary civ to have.

Why would we go back to the Celtic blob?

My bad, I was mistakenly using "Celtic" to refer to "Irish." Rookie mistake. I feel that Ireland has a very different and unique vibe that they can bring to the European lineup.

Save the Navajo for DLC, otherwise there won't be any NA civs taking advantage of expansion mechanics.

Oh, but not so! There are still PLENTY of possible North American civilizations- an Inuit Civilization, one of the SUPER ancient civs like the Calusa down in Florida, any of the Northwestern tribes like the Chinook, hell, maybe even the Caribbean? Alternative leaders? Other post-colonial nations? (not ideal, but I suppose it is an option...)

I also just noticed that neither Arabia or Ottomans are there either and I would definitely have one of the Islamic civs from the Middle East in the base game too.

Good point, that was definitely an oversight on my part. Maybe I replace Persia with an Islamic civ (most likely Arabia)?

For me exactly which civs are or are not included at the beginning will have little or nothing to do with if the game is good compared to game play.

Also a good point. Coming from someone who plays in large part due to the historical/cultural aspect of the different civilizations, though, a large arrangement of different unique civs can make me a lot more excited to play the game, and vice versa.

I'd say that this list's major lack is South American representation - either Native or contemporary or both.

Fair. Something like the Inca would fit very well, probably over someone like the Maya (though it breaks my heart, they're bound to make it in eventually.) I'm not huge on post-colonial representation, save for the obligatory America, and honestly Brazil has just never felt that interesting to play, in my opinion. But South American representation was definitely an oversight.

Secondary problem might be the North American native representation, since the Navajo as a group are really another agricultural city-builders with major irrigation, and that also is covered by both Mayans and Aztecs

Uh... meh? I can see where you're going with this but I think the Navajo have a lot more to offer, especially based on which leader they are given- they could go trade-based like the Cree, culture-based, even possibly combat-based (though we saw how the real life Cree didn't like Poundmaker even being able to wage war,) and on top of that they add a unique visual style. I suppose I'm a little biased, as someone who grew up near Navajo lands and has visited several times, but... it's my list, let me have this.

How I'd edit my list after the feedback:
England, France, Greece, Rome, Russia, Portugal, Ireland, Egypt, Zulu, Ethiopia, Swahili, Babylon, China, India, Japan, Mongolia, Arabia, Siam, Hawaii, America, Aztec, Inca, Iroquois, Navajo

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

personally, I don't find the European civs (for the most part) to be the most interesting, so I was fairly liberal with my cuts.
Also, I counted both Greeces when I was counting civs to pass judgement- I definitely think that we could have gone without one of them.

Do you mean having both Gorgo and Pericles?
Because Gorgo and Pericles are the same civ, just alternate leaders, and I don't see how that's a problem? At least no different than adding in Chandragupta in addition to Gandhi in the base game.

 

[Evie]

tl;dr: lineup is England, France, Greece, Rome, Russia, Portugal, Celts, Egypt, Zulu, Ethiopia, Swahili, Babylon, China, India, Japan, Mongolia, Persia, Siam, Hawaii, America, Aztec, Maya, Iroquois, Navajo

I'd change:
Germany over either Portugal and the Celts. They're both good inclusions, but not at the expanse of Germany.

A West African civ (Mali/Ghana/Songhai/Ashante/Dahomey/Kanem-Bornu/Hausa) over Zulu*. Zulu and Swahili are both Bantu-speaking civilization, and Shaka's just a bit of a one trick pony, whereas West Africa is extremely underrepresented on your list - all four of your civs are associated with the more eastern parts of Africa (even the Zulu, who are more toward the eastern coast of South Africa). My personal preference here would actually be the Hausa civilization led by Amina/Aminatu because she became legendary as a great queen for a reason, and, besides which, I mean, African Muslim Warrior Queen is something we're not going to find in too many other places).

Another Polynesian civilization over Hawaii
There are currently four of your twenty-four civs that are from the territory of the modern United States. That's...quite a lot actually. Cutting that back down to two would probably be good, and Hawaii is an easy victim here. Whether Maori or another Polynesian civ is best...I don't know well enough.

Inca over either Iroquois or Navajo
More native people in the expansions is good, but even with twenty four civs, two American natives and America itself in the base game is a lot. Reducing it to one North American native to make room for the Inca is the most sensible cut.

Spain gets relegated to the first scenario and civilization pack where they can hang out with Montezuma in a Conquest-of-Mexico theme DLC.

 

[BuchiTaton]

k
That might be a way that the Maya could possibly appear over a perennial recurring civ like the Aztecs, at least in the base game.

Even better, we can have Zapotecs as a Science civ.

Another Polynesian civilization over Hawaii
There are currently four of your twenty-four civs that are from the territory of the modern United States. That's...quite a lot actually. Cutting that back down to two would probably be good, and Hawaii is an easy victim here. Whether Maori or another Polynesian civ is best...I don't know well enough.

Agree, Hawaii was (kind of) in CIV5, better have Tonga for a more oceanic and expasionist polynesian civ.

By the way Zapotecs are many times older, more urbanized, populous, dominated a bigger area and interected with more civs than Hawaiians.

Inca over either Iroquois or Navajo
More native people in the expansions is good, but even with twenty four civs, two American natives and America itself in the base game is a lot. Reducing it to one North American native to make room for the Inca is the most sensible cut..

Also agree, if you have America and Haudenosaunee (+Aztec), it make sense to have someone with Inca on South America. Even more, if you changed Spain for Portugal, maybe South America could have now Argentina instead, or Tupi to fight Portuguese.

 

[Evie]

I think one native civilization each for North, Central and South America is really the most you might get out of 18 or 24 civs. Colonials I'd rather keep to the expansions altogether, but we're sort of stuck with America.

Zapotec are an interesting choice, but not at the expense of the Mayans.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I think one native civilization each for North, Central and South America is really the most you might get out of 18 or 24 civs. Colonials I'd rather keep to the expansions altogether, but we're sort of stuck with America.

Zapotec are an interesting choice, but not at the expense of the Mayans.

My idea is unlikely but is more about replace both Aztec and Maya at release. Of course both would come later being well know favorite civs.

Aztecs: Nezahualcóyotl with a cultural incarnation of the Aztec, included the Calmecác college.
Maya: This time more about ritual war and city state hegemony with the Pitz court.
Zapotecs: Science and diplomacy, considering their relation with Teotihuacan, Tenochtitlan and even the Spaniards. The Zapotec barrios/calpullis on foreign land could be a unique way to interact.

 

[Lord Lakely]

It's not that difficult to come up with new leaders, even for a base game.

:cracks knuckles:

So let me type out 20 base-game civs, each with a new leader to the franchise (note: these are not necessarily the choices I would make)

- America - Thomas Jefferson (M) => Self-made man turned president, to complete the Mt Rushmore set.
- Arabia - Arwa al-Sulyahi (F): Queen of Yemen, one of the few women in Islamic history to be considered a 'King' in her own right.
- Assyria - Sennacherib (M): one of the greatest builders in the area. Cultural Assyria, here we come.
- Carthage - Hamilcar Barca (M) => Hannibal's dad, served in the 'Mercenary Wars"
- China - Yongle Emperor (M) => Build the Forbidden City and commissioned an Encyclopedia in his name.
- Egypt - Akhetaton (M) => A controversial religious visionary.
- England - Henry VIII (M) => Also a controversial religious visionary? Anti-religious, that is.
- Ethiopia - Taytu Betul (F) => Menelik's wife, a fascinating woman with a sharp mind. It was she who founded Addis Ababa.
- France - Clovis (M) => The first true French king, converted the entire region to christianity.
- Germany - Konrad Adenauer (M) => The man behind Germany's Economic Miracle.
- Greece - Alcibiades (M) => Enfant Terrible of the Assembly, fascinating character, look him up.
- Haudenosaunee - Molly Brant (F) => Speaker of the Iroquois, sister of Joseph Brant.
- Hittites - Puduhepa (F) => The Queen-Priestess who invented formal Peace. Literally.
- Inca - Topa Inca Yupanqui (M) => Established the four corners and built many fortresses.
- India - Nur Jahan (F) => The most powerful woman in Indian history. Her name translates as "Light of the World" which is an excellent name for an ability.
- Japan - Hojo Masako (F) => Also known as the "Shogun Nun". nuff said.
- Maya - Lord Sun Sky Rain (M) => The man who made Tikal into a regional superpower.
- Mongolia - Mandukhai Khatun (F) => Unifier of the Steppes, almost as beloved in Mongolia as the Great Khan is.
- Persia - Khosrow I (M) => A great Builder and guess what, NOT an Achaemenid.
- Rome - Livia Augusta (F) => The face of Roman Virtue, a very powerful political entity behind the scenes.
- Russia - Alexander Nevski (M) => Prince of Novgorod, a master trader. Choosing him would reinvent Russia into something we haven't seen of them before: an economic juggernaught.


20 Fresh faces, each with an interesting history (or potential fun gimmick), each repping an iconic civ. 7/20 European Civs is a nice amount, as are 8 female leaders to 12 male ones.

The most important aspect to keep however, is giving each Civ a distinct leader and giving that leader a fleshed out personality. That, to me, has always been an advantage Civ held over other 4X games. It teems with personality and I wouldn't want it changed for the world.

 

[Evie]

Oooohhhhh, Livia for Rome. I like that idea, quite original.

But Clovis is a little too early to lead the French IMO...and really, maybe it's time to give the French Bismarck, arch-vilain of one of the most famous novels ever, his turn. Maybe we can even have Tim Curry reprise the role by recording his lines! #RichelieuForFrance

 

[Ryansinbela]

Who is Sun Sky Rain

Nevermind:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yikʼin_Chan_Kʼawiil

 

[Zaarin]

- America - Thomas Jefferson (M)
- Arabia - Arwa al-Sulyahi (F)
- Assyria - Ershaddon (M)
- Carthage - Hamilcar Barca (M)
- China - Yongle Emperor (M)
- Egypt - Djoser (M)
- England - Henry VIII (M)
- Ethiopia - Taytu Betul (F)
- France - Clovis (M)
- Germany - Konrad Adenauer (M)
- Greece - Alcibiades (M)
- Haudenosaunee - Molly Brant (F)
- Hittites - Puduhepa (F)
- Inca - Topa Inca Yupanqui (M)
- India - Nur Jahan (F)
- Japan - Hojo Masako (F)
- Mayans - Lord Sun Sky Rain (M)
- Mongolia - Mandukhai Khatun (F)
- Persia - Khosrow I (M)
- Rome - Livia Augusta (F)
- Russia - Alexander Nevski (M)

I can't imagine Firaxis being so bold as to have new leaders for every civ, but it's a fun exercise. I love Esarhaddon and Hamilcar, but I think a few civs could do better. I really don't think Livia Augusta is a great choice for Rome; I'd swap her out for Severus Septimius and swap out Henry VIII for Empress Matilda for England, thus preserving the gender balance and knocking out a dubious leader for England at the same time. I'd love to see a Sassanid leader of Persia (though I'd prefer Shapur II), but I don't think Firaxis knows they exist. I agree with Evie that Clovis is a doubtful choice for France, but that's okay: France has a long history with plenty of kings to choose from. I nominate Francis I or Henry IV--or Philippe August. Any of them would be good.

She'd probably be controversial, but I'd love to see Sorghaghtani Beki lead Mongolia.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Oooohhhhh, Livia for Rome. I like that idea, quite original.

But Clovis is a little too early to lead the French IMO...and really, maybe it's time to give the French Bismarck, arch-vilain of one of the most famous novels ever, his turn. Maybe we can even have Tim Curry reprise the role by recording his lines! #RichelieuForFrance

Yessss, I love Richelieu (though my personal choice for France is eiher Charlemagne or Louis XIV - both of which have been used before). He's fascinating. Evil scheming cleric <3 But on the heels of his female counterpart, CdM, it feels a bit too soon for him. I like Clovis because you can build a couple of mechanics around conversions, and religious France is something we haven't had before. Establishing hegemony via converting your subjects, dotting the landscape with Roman and Gothic churches. That feels like a fun take on France for me. (I'd advocate a separate Frankish civ but lmfao this franchise doesn't need even more Eurocentrism)

also sorry to burst your bubble Zaarin but although I typed "Esarhaddon", it was actually "Sennacherib" whom I thought of. Whoops...x

Alternatively you could try Spearthrower Owl for the Mayans... but that culd be a tad controversh because he's originally from Teotihuacan. Still, this is a game where Kublai Khan can lead China and where Eleanor of Aquitaine can lead England, so...

 

[Evie]

If you throw in Spearthrower Owl, might as well go the extra step and have him just lead Teotihuacan.

 

[Zaarin]

also sorry to burst your bubble Zaarin but although I typed "Esarhaddon", it was actually "Sennacherib" whom I thought of. Whoops...x

Sennacherib's great, too, and probably more famous. I think Esarhaddon would be a fun choice, though, for a couple reasons: he suffered from depression, possibly PTSD, and maybe even pathological paranoia--and his paranoia led him to distrust his male relatives, giving his female relatives (including his mother Naqi'a and daughter Serua-eterat) a lot of influence at court. All that could give him an interesting in-game persona. (And the "choose the best" crowd can't complain about him, either, because he was one of the longest reigning monarchs in Mesopotamian history, hugely expanded the empire, conquered Egypt, and rebuilt Babylon after his father destroyed it.)

 

[Evie]

I think Richelieu would play the scheming card very differently from CdM - he's the diplomatic mastermind to her spy queen. The guy who will fight you through five proxies in a row before finally stepping in himself (see: Thirty Years War), and ensure that half the continent hates you as much as he hates you.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Oh, I don't doubt that. The most important thing is: you can come up with someone good and fun and new for basically any Civ. Well other than M*c*d*n, but we're not doing that again, are we?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Oh, I don't doubt that. The most important thing is: you can come up with someone good and fun and new for basically any Civ. Well other than M*c*d*n, but we're not doing that again, are we?

Why not another Phillip II?

 

[DBPirate]

- America - Thomas Jefferson (M) => Self-made man turned president, to complete the Mt Rushmore set.
- Arabia - Arwa al-Sulyahi (F): Queen of Yemen, one of the few women in Islamic history to be considered a 'King' in her own right.
- Assyria - Sennacherib (M): one of the greatest builders in the area. Cultural Assyria, here we come.
- Carthage - Hamilcar Barca (M) => Hannibal's dad, served in the 'Mercenary Wars"
- China - Yongle Emperor (M) => Build the Forbidden City and commissioned an Encyclopedia in his name.
- Egypt - Akhetaton (M) => A controversial religious visionary.
- England - Henry VIII (M) => Also a controversial religious visionary? Anti-religious, that is.
- Ethiopia - Taytu Betul (F) => Menelik's wife, a fascinating woman with a sharp mind. It was she who founded Addis Ababa.
- France - Clovis (M) => The first true French king, converted the entire region to christianity.
- Germany - Konrad Adenauer (M) => The man behind Germany's Economic Miracle.
- Greece - Alcibiades (M) => Enfant Terrible of the Assembly, fascinating character, look him up.
- Haudenosaunee - Molly Brant (F) => Speaker of the Iroquois, sister of Joseph Brant.
- Hittites - Puduhepa (F) => The Queen-Priestess who invented formal Peace. Literally.
- Inca - Topa Inca Yupanqui (M) => Established the four corners and built many fortresses.
- India - Nur Jahan (F) => The most powerful woman in Indian history. Her name translates as "Light of the World" which is an excellent name for an ability.
- Japan - Hojo Masako (F) => Also known as the "Shogun Nun". nuff said.
- Maya - Lord Sun Sky Rain (M) => The man who made Tikal into a regional superpower.
- Mongolia - Mandukhai Khatun (F) => Unifier of the Steppes, almost as beloved in Mongolia as the Great Khan is.
- Persia - Khosrow I (M) => A great Builder and guess what, NOT an Achaemenid.
- Rome - Livia Augusta (F) => The face of Roman Virtue, a very powerful political entity behind the scenes.
- Russia - Alexander Nevski (M) => Prince of Novgorod, a master trader. Choosing him would reinvent Russia into something we haven't seen of them before: an economic juggernaught.

This is probably the best hypothetical selection of base-game civs for Civ VII I've seen yet. However, I think that changing Carthage to Phoenicia was the right choice in VI. I wouldn't revert them back to Carthage (but rather have a Phoenician alt-leader representing them), but that's just me.

Oh, but not so! There are still PLENTY of possible North American civilizations- an Inuit Civilization, one of the SUPER ancient civs like the Calusa down in Florida, any of the Northwestern tribes like the Chinook, hell, maybe even the Caribbean? Alternative leaders? Other post-colonial nations? (not ideal, but I suppose it is an option...)

My mistake, I meant to say "many", not "any". I'd go with one native civ in NA (Iroquois), one in Mesoamerica (Maya), and one in SA (Inca) for the base game. Of course, if your scenario were to happen, I'd never complain about more Native civs.