Civ VI to Civ VII: What to Keep, What to Change or Discard Part One: Civs and Leaders

[Zaarin]

Well other than M*c*d*n, but we're not doing that again, are we?

No Cassander for you? Me, neither.

However, I think that changing Carthage to Phoenicia was the right choice in VI. I wouldn't revert them back to Carthage (but rather have a Phoenician alt-leader representing them), but that's just me.

100% this. "Carthage" has always been portrayed as the anti-Roman elephant war civ instead of the thalassocratic trade-and-colony civ it deserves to be. Civ6's Phoenicia is perfect.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Oh, I don't doubt that. The most important thing is: you can come up with someone good and fun and new for basically any Civ. Well other than M*c*d*n, but we're not doing that again, are we?

Macedon, if anybody anywhere really thought we needed yet another Classical Mediterranean Greek-speaking (well, funny-sounding Greek) Civ, could be a lot more than Alexander's Rag Time Hetairoi. The country was a major source of silver, timber, wine, and other exports for Greece and other trading partners,, and among the 'other Leaders' could be:

Alexander I - The one who actually got them counted as Greeks and allowed to compete at the Olympics
Olympias - mother of The Other Alexander and one of the few legitimately powerful women in Greek or Macedonian politics.
Phillip II - the father, and frankly, a much better politician and shrewder diplomat than Alex ever was .
Eurydice II - a half-sister of Alex, Queen of Macedonia after Alex's death.

Of course, Macedon is properly part of the Greek cultural sphere, and the best way to include it in the game would probably be with Alexander III as an Alternate Leader for Greece or Macedonia, with Macedonia as the Militant version of a Cultural Greece.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Personal preference aside, I would probably have Sparta as the militant counterpart to Athens (which I view as scientific, rather than cultural btw.). The dichotomy between the Delean and Peloponnessian league just works very well.

Hell, I'd rather have Mycenae or Crete.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My mistake, I meant to say "many", not "any". I'd go with one native civ in NA (Iroquois), one in Mesoamerica (Maya), and one in SA (Inca) for the base game. Of course, if your scenario were to happen, I'd never complain about more Native civs.

I wouldn't think you'd be opposed to more considering Poundmaker is your avatar.

Of course, Macedon is properly part of the Greek cultural sphere, and the best way to include it in the game would probably be with Alexander III as an Alternate Leader for Greece or Macedonia, with Macedonia as the Militant version of a Cultural Greece.

I don't think Alexander is going anywhere so I would be fine with this. Make some room for the Seleucids for Civ 7.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Personal preference aside, I would probably have Sparta as the militant counterpart to Athens (which I view as scientific, rather than cultural btw.). The dichotomy between the Delean and Peloponnessian league just works very well.

Hell, I'd rather have Mycenae or Crete.

While Sparta/Lakedemonia is the archetype of the Militant Civ historically: they produced notable warriors and Olympia runners, but no philosophers, writers, or artists of any kind that we know of - even surviving art depicting Spartan warriors is from places like Athens or Corinth.
But Athens as Scientific is more of a stretch. The principle Greek philosophers from Athens were pure philosophers - Plato, Socrates and their immediate followers - who didn't add much to scientific thought although they were giants of philosophy. Aristotle founded his school in Athens, the Lyceum, but he came from Asia Minor and didn't actually work in Athens that long. The other giants of early Scientific thought from Greece: Heraclitus, Euclid, Pythagoreas, Hippocrates, etc al - none from Athens.
Athens' main claim to 'scientific' prowess would be the Lyceum and Akademe schools founded there, but the Akademe was almost entirely philosophy rather than 'practical' science, and they were founded in Athens because Athens was the largest Greek city in Greece - and even then both were founded outside the city walls to avoid confrontations with more conventional citizens and laws: Athens was always more friendly to philosophical questions and questioners that didn't seriously challenge the Status Quo as understood than those who questioned your entire view of the World physically or ethicially - see Socrates for what happened when you ran afoul of Athenian public sentiment.

Sorry, going on too long on too little. Bottom line, I think Athens with a Athens-specific Acropolis Cultural UD would give a Cultural basis for the Civ, with Athenian Leaders like Solon, Cleisthenes, Themistocles or Pericles giving a choice between Commerce, Diplomacy, Military/Naval or Government bonuses as desired.

The general Greek UD could be the Agora - a Commercial District that also gives Culture and Loyalty bonuses to reflect its place as the lively center of every Greek city - except Sparta, the exception to almost everything Greek!

And the Peloponnessian and Delian Leagues make good additions to Sparta/Athens because the two cities dominated their respective 'Leagues", but if we are going to nod towards the Greek Leagues the inclusions should be the Aetlian or Arcadian Leagues that were actually leagues of equals and so something different from the classical City State rather than "Warsaw Pacts" of their day dominated by a single Polis.

And finally, I would love to have Mycenea as a Civ: you could even justify "semi-mythical" Leaders like Agememnon or Nestor or Odysseas and either a Military or Trade emphasis.
Crete, on the other hand, is problematical: they are marginally better than, say, Harappa or Olmecs because we can put together an actual City List since the Greeks re-used so many of the original names, but we really don't have a named Leader: 'Minos' was probably, from context, a Title rather than an individual name. Doesn't make it impossible, but between the problems and the fact that Phoenicia really covers the same Naval/Trade niche in the early game, it becomes a "nice to have" rather than a Requirement.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Back after a Break.

There are and have been considerable discussions on-going on other Threads about Leaders, Alternate Leaders, and Multiple Leaders for more Civ VI or later - which is pretty much also our subject here.

Here's what I think will happen:

1. Civ VII will still have animated Leaders for each Civ, with the voice acting and attempts at linguistic 'realism' or at least appropriateness. That means the total number of Leaders will be limited by economics and resources available.
2. Civ VII will still have Civs that start the game in XXXX BCE and last, potentially, until the Near Future. I do not foresee the Civ Franchise suddenly trying to emulate Humankind's 'Change Civ every Era' mechanic.

Within those constraints, then, how can we Upgrade the Civ/Leader combinations to give us more variety in the Civs and Leaders without requiring that Firaxis hire every graphic 3D portrait artist or caricaturist in the northern Hemisphere and the game's price beginning to equal the Wholesale Energy Prices in Texas this week?

Here's a thought for discussion:

The Leader, as presented in Civ, is the Visual Representative of your Civ. In-Game, the Leader effects are limited, though: a Unique or two, an affinity for certain government types, an 'Agenda' that governs to some extent the diplomatic relationships of the AI Civs but has, really, no affect on a human player of that Civ at all.

So, instead of trying to (expensively) change Leaders or add Leaders for each Civ, why not change the Effects of the Leader, using mechanics and attributes of the Civ that are related to but not identical to the Leader him/herself?

The basic premise is, a Leader does not Lead in isolation: Darius in charge of Parliamentary England will not have the same effects as Darius in charge of the Persian Empire or, for that matter, in charge of Medieval Mali.
And Medieval Mali with a Republican government or a set of Universities teaching a Classical Education will not react to Mansa Musa or Darius in the same way that the historical Mali might.

That is, make the various 'Leader' Uniques and Agendas a result of:
Type of Government - and start the game with more than a single choice in the Ancient Era.
Efficiency of Government - based on Civic/Social, and Technical changes throughout the game
Great Ministers/Diplomats (sort of like Governors that affect the Civ rather than a single City)
Civics and/or Policy 'cards' interacting to modify each other and the other mechanics

All of these operating on a very basic 'Leader Unique' tied to the original Leader.

That makes a single expensive graphic animation with language Leader potentially a vehicle for multiple actual Leader Effects.

Add in the fact that the Civ itself can modify the effects of Governments, Policies and Civics, and we could have, potentially, a huge variety of Leader Effects without needing a huge variety of Leader Animations - some of, inevitably, dubious quality since no matter how much money they spend, Firaxis cannot hire portrait/caricaturists with the talents of Oliphant, Herblock, or W. Kelly.