Civ X or Civ 6 ?

I am somewhat tired of folks here who like Civ IV trying to peddle personal preferences as universal truths.

Well, I am as much tired of folks here who like Civ V trying to peddle personal preferences as universal truths. And I am even more tired of folks who try to shoot down justified and reasonable criticism (they don't share for whatever reason) with generalizations, exaggerations and commonplace like yours.

Those who prefer Civ IV have the game, 2 xpacs, lots of awesome mods - I'm kind of wondering why you want a new game - when new implies different and everyone jumps up and down in a rage when bits they personally liked are changed.

Another generalization. Nobody here is against change in general. Change is good, if it improves the original game concept or experinece. Many people felt this happening in the franchise from I to IV. If it weren't, most people would still be playing Civ I. Change is bad if it worsens the game conecpt or experience. And many people here feel this is exactly what happenend with Civ V. Not quite sure how hard this is to get...
 
For me the UI is all about how intuitive actions are and finding information where I expect to find it. The speed of operation is entirely different, and I agree that it could do with some improvement - I feel that they have been using an updated graphics engine which they have not quite tuned just yet. As with many new games you need a PC well above recommended specs to get acceptable performance (I'm looking at you Oblivion some years ago).

Graphics engine is not what holds either civ IV or V back (your assertion that it is so is cookie-cutter typical of civ V apologists though!). They are the rare titles that are processor-limited, excepting of course cases where someone's graphics card is miserably terrible. It's not the graphics that are causing 5 second delays after moving a unit (with animations turned off, possibly in strategic mode). It's coding. Civ IV and V each spam almost unbelievable amounts of unnecessary checks and calculations every single turn. I admit that other games can be bad with their engines too, but that does not excuse firaxis; there are also games that DON'T do this! Compare how civ V runs to starcraft II, a contemporary title. Design choices and different genre aside, you can find literally none of the menu item slowdown, delays, or issues with giving units orders in SC II. Does that mean SC II is a better-designed game? Not necessarily. Does that mean SC II's engine and UI (customizable hotkeys! are miles ahead of civ V and more appropriate for a modern title? Absolutely!

So - on the UI - I come from many years of board and table gaming and have never felt that multiple units in a space works particularly well on a PC. On top of that - board games with squares have crazy movement (the diagonals issue) - so:

I'm talking about UI and engine here. Hexes are a design choice and strictly a gameplay element. I'm not going to argue with you about hexes, because I actually believe hexes are a better choice (and hence I'd just be agreeing with that preference).

It's the same thing with 1UPT. The only reason I brought it up is that you'd have to restrict civ IV to that to compare movement between the two games. I'm not sure I prefer 1UPT, but that's irrelevant. The issue here is how long it takes after moving one unit until the game physically lets you attempt to move the next.

Please don't bring design differences into a discussion about why the UI and Engine are bad. It's not like the presence of hexes inherently makes a game run slower and trashier, or that 1UPT precludes the use of hotkeys.

Next, production. OK - let's click on the city to check it out (I have NEVER had to click twice on a city to do this). OK - there's the production queue, let's look at it - hmm, I think I click production - then click what I want to add - done (where are the 5-10 clicks?).

In order to queue up multiple things, you have to click into a city...but you're not totally in the city yet! Actually, you have to press escape, and then and only then can you enable your queue (why do you have to enable this to queue multiple things?!) and then you MUST use a small button to add things to the queue; not hotkeys for it.

In civ IV, you could click on a city once, which had a menu along the bottom. Holding shift and clicking 1 more time added and additional item to the queue. It is literally impossible to accomplish this same thing as quickly in civ V...barring mod work of course!

All of this is VERY intuitive, and I suspect carefully tested with new players

New players don't use hotkeys or take full advantage of modern UI conventions. That only comes with experience.

That aside, I probably have a better idea of what was "carefully tested" in terms of UI than you might initially believe, but I won't comment further on that.

I could rabbit on forever about elements of the interface which I feel are much better organised and accessible than in IV - but hopefully this will at least let you see where I am coming from, and that I was not being frivolous with my comments.

I'm not asking about your feelings. The only thing bringing our feelings into the discussion does here is add bias. I'm not going to take you out to dinner or even the movies either. I just want examples in civ V where you can accomplish the same thing with fewer clicks/higher speed. That can be objectively measured. You seem pretty confident that a multitude of such things exist, yet still haven't presented one.

They ARE universal truths, but Civ 5 players can't see that because they are less intelligent individuals than Civ 4 players!

There ARE some preference differences, but the coding/UI/engine are universal truths and their failings can be objectively quantified. Notice his tendency to go into design features in an effort to wriggle away from the explicitly defined failures of civ V (and IV, honestly).

The reasons have been listed countless times and range from bad design and poor feature implementation, over change of the genre into a wargame, to lack of historical immersion and "gameyness".

I'm equal opportunity, which means I'm going to roast you too even though you like civ IV:

1. Every iteration of civ has, by design, been a "war game". When you look at it from a cost-return optimized approach, military has been priority numero uno since the dawn of the civ series. This is not a valid argument against civ V! It'd be different if you didn't like, for example, that civ V forces more vertical gameplay to be optimal (almost heresy in a 4x game, but still valid if that's their vision). At least THERE, something is actually different from previous titles, unlike the fact that this is a war game ;).

2. Historical immersion is subjective. I don't get much out of either game because the AI is frankly ridiculous and incompetent in both iterations...but from an objective perspective the games do not play like "real life" at the fundamental level, so what is the source of this immersion argument? Pretty much just how an individual feels. That is not an interesting or viable debate point when comparing titles.

3. Poor feature implementation: Well, unlike UI/engine they're at least trying. I'll give them that. It's worth noting that both civ IV and civ V have absolutely glaring strategic balance issues (IE some things are just so much better than alternatives that were supposed to be viable on a consistent basis that they become a de-facto, memorized + spammed tactic). The "build orders" in civ V (with some SPolicy options consistently inferior regardless of game/difficulty/map) and the "tech to renaissance and abuse no counter units" in civ IV are each examples of this.

They tried in civ IV too, but I don't think Firaxis understand balance (IE they nerfed the redcoat but left war chariots and praets untouched). Not that understanding balance is easy, but they definitely don't.

Once the shine wears off, you will find that the actual game is a hollow remainder of what Civ used to be.

I think you're forgetting how "deep" pre-civ IV games were. The answer is "not very". Roads/farms/mines? "Settler pumps"? "ICS forever and it's the only true answer ever"? How soon we forget...sad as it is, civ V is easily the 2nd most deep title in the main-line series. I would argue that's true even if you era-adjust, although that might not be fair since civ 1-3 had actual TBS competition.

Well, I am as much tired of folks here who like Civ V trying to peddle personal preferences as universal truths. And I am even more tired of folks who try to shoot down justified and reasonable criticism (they don't share for whatever reason) with generalizations, exaggerations and commonplace like yours.

+1. Pretty amusing to have the accuser doing what he's accusing
 
2. Historical immersion is subjective. I don't get much out of either game because the AI is frankly ridiculous and incompetent in both iterations...but from an objective perspective the games do not play like "real life" at the fundamental level, so what is the source of this immersion argument? Pretty much just how an individual feels. That is not an interesting or viable debate point when comparing titles.

In general you're totally right here - but there's the city state issue. In all Civ games up to IV all tribes / states / nations have the same rules. If they play good they prosper, if not they are beaten. Civ V adds this surreal and nonsense rule set where one type of states can grow as much as it wants, while the other is reduced forever to one city. Based on that they also have completely different diplomatic options (food- or unit-spammer and diplo-victory-whore vs. proper nation). And while city states might be an interesting game mechanic for many, this is where I would say for me this is a major step backwards (and an actual game-breaker) in terms of "historical" immersion - with all simplifications, generalizations and inaccuracies present in the franchise from the beginning allready properly considerd. This leads us directly to the "don't you ever dare DoWing a city state or taking another nations last city or you'll be denounced forever as a warmonger" issue...
But as you pointed out correctly, that's just a personal feeling and preference...
 
AI hate/like logic could use a lot of work in both games. You should not take severe penalties from civs that haven't met you yet and couldn't have known about your transgressions. I had one case where I broke a DoF in civ V and killed a guy. It was just the 2 of us on the continent, and I pulled this very early; no chance for anybody to have met him. First AI I meet? I got the demerit for declaring on DoF guy. Really?

But civ IV has the infamous "worst enemy trade" which was made before you met the 3rd civ. Even worse is that it's uncapped, allowing you to become somebody's worst enemy solely by trading with their worst enemy in a situation where they shouldn't even know you traded with them at all.

This kind of stuff is convoluted and shouldn't exist in either game, but failaxis loves it.

And the fact that you can take 15 cities and keep them with no penalty if you baited a DoW but taking that last city gets you a huge demerit in civ V is frankly ridiculous.
 
(IE they nerfed the redcoat but left war chariots and praets untouched).
Yeah, always seemed ridiculous to me, same with Cossacks. Firaxis doesn't understand snowballing.
 
The snowballing effect already starts very early in the game if the goody huts are on.
There's a good chance 1 or 2 civs will get Bronze Working from a goody hut within 10 turns.
And I don't know if it's the BUFFY mod or the BTS 3.19.003 patch, but the barbs don't attack civs which already have metal units.
 
It's my second post here but perhaps the last I'll just say how I feel : Civ 5 is a copycat from Panzer General !! (Those old timers know). I do not like a tactical game messed up and titled Civ 5 so it's like a heresy to me :D Do not feel ofended please. Also I do not like to put my units in zombie-city situation to grind around those filthy never ending hordes of AI , it is just tiresome and pointless , Sun-Tzu is turning in his grave is all I have to say :D
 
Maybe for people who play slowly it's OK to wait 5 seconds after moving a unit late game on recommended specs. But a rational person asks: why are we having to wait to move the next unit on our own turn? Why can we out-pace the UI in both civ IV and V on above recommended specs? We're human beings! An average person will lose hours per game to between-turn times unless they play on small maps, and faster players will lose even more waiting to be able to move their next unit in civ V.

[...]

Civ V sucks because it took civ IV's very worst flaw with it, and exacerbated it by requiring more inputs with an engine less equipped to handle them.

I think we've done this dance before, but I'll still both do and do not disagree. I do not wholly disagree with your assessment of the weaknesses in the UI and movement, but I do disagree that it's a big game ruining thing. I don't feel I've wasted hours by sitting and thinking in between turns. I pause between moving units anyway, and certainly between turns. It's not a game I want to play at breakneck speed. The queue is easier for me to use than in Civ4, because it's more visually intuitive, whereas hotkeys are not. That doesn't mean the queue isn't more cumbersome, or that the waiting time you speak of shouldn't be reduced. It just means that I don't particularly care. It doesn't negatively impact on my enjoyment of the game. These objective problems don't make the game objectively suck, and don't mean someone cannot subjectively find them 'better' (as I find the queue better, despite it being more cumbersome).

Though should be noted for the audience that the change to threading (or whatever it's called) in G&K and the vanilla patch before, made movement a lot better, with air units being the best example. In vanilla air unit movement really was pretty unbearable, and though it still has quite evident problems, they do not bother me much.
 
I don't feel I've wasted hours by sitting and thinking in between turns. I pause between moving units anyway, and certainly between turns.
Maybe your mind is telling you something else.
Are you sure you're thinking and not staring at the screen and waiting impatient for your next turn?
Because if you do then you're not thinking.
And what is there to think about anyway? There's no grand strategy.

A satisfied civ5 customer isn't posting here or in the civ5 rants thread.
So it looks you're beginnning to see the light.
 
I can think about things other than the game. :p Sometimes I might just be staring at the screen, but not impatiently. I usually play games to zone out. I mean, staring at the screen in between turns is no more a waste of time than playing the game in the first place! But I often play games to waste time.

I posted in the Civ5 rants thread to answer a query, and saw this thread mentioned there. ;)

Part of my willingness to bear the wait times might be because back in my Civ4 days (I loved that game too!) late game turns would take 15-20 minutes, when I was playing on an older computer. Civ5 waits are nothing for me compared to that. Doesn't mean they couldn't be better, but does mean it doesn't impact on my enjoyment of the game either way, and so is not an objectively big issue.
 
Time You have enjoyed wasting isn't wasted time ^^
 
It's not a game I want to play at breakneck speed. The queue is easier for me to use than in Civ4, because it's more visually intuitive, whereas hotkeys are not.

This does not excuse a lack of hotkeys...

And if you are saying you literally spend 90+ minutes thinking/not wanting to interface with the game while going through a playthrough...then lucky you. I can't envision that speed of play/thought doing well in other games, but if you're playing sufficiently slowly I suppose it's possible to not mind the long turn times.

It's a major barrier to people who want to keep giving orders to additional units (part of a plan they already came up with prior) or to people who want to end their turn and can't, or have to wait forever because there aren't that many orders to give given their chosen victory condition but they are still penalized with a long game.
 
Back to the OP, I think Civ 6 might be quite good. This is because the series is following a similar pattern to the original Star Trek films, i.e. the odd-numbered ones are always worse (in Star Trek this is a statistically proven fact).

Anyway, in Civ:

CivII - definite improvement over CivI
CivIII - kind of a regression when compared to SMAC
CivIV - definite improvement over CivIII
CiV - kind of a regression when compared to CivIV

So 6 will be a definite improvement. Pre-order when you can.
 
Selling lots of copies nowdays seems to come more and more from flashy commercials and control over gaming-review-sites like IGN and GameSpot and less from actually making a solid game that you would recommend to your friends. Therefore i do not see why civ6 would be any improvement over civ5.
 
Well, there have been dozens of attempts to make a 4X space game as good as Master of Orion II, but no legal action that I’m aware of.

In fact, the lack of entrants to the 4X history game market is surprising - maybe no one thought it was worth challenging Firaxis’ dominance?

Especially when you consider that these games should be relatively easy for smaller companies to attempt - they don’t need expensive flashy graphics in order to appeal (hell, I’d argue that Civ III is still the best looking of the series). You just need good game design and intelligent coding.


I eventually found one good game - Galactic Civilizations 2

Its a game definitely worth trying. Lot´s of mechanics in the game are "simple", yet not because of players, but in order to put AI and player on a level ground - which is a good think - AI in this game is glorified. In my opinion, it isn´t as amazing, but it´s the best I have seen in 4x games so far.

Space empires V on the other hand is a much more complex game, but AI cannot use 95% of the content, and that´s not overstating it. The AI in this game was a digrace, basically the game was unplayable in single player.

So what are other civ fans playing?

Have most people now migrated to civ5?
 
I eventually found one good game - Galactic Civilizations 2

GalCiv2 was OK, but the features for monitoring enemy movement were essentially non-existent, and starbases were a massive feature of the game which required endless construction of their special ships and choosing which feature to build and... micro nightmare.

Personally, although it undeniably has its flaws, I'd rather play Master of Orion 1. Moo1 with its sliders approaches the way a 4X game should work; I'll set policy, and the planet can get on with implementing it. None of this "build a hydroponic farm here and an ore mine there"; the only structures the player should order individually are those like stargates with strategic value.
 
So what are other civ fans playing?
Sins of a Solar Empire, and Europa Universalis for me when I'm not modding.
Have most people now migrated to civ5?
I removed my copy from my hard disk and rid myself of Steam in the bargain.

It was a good day, that day. :D
 
Back to the OP, I think Civ 6 might be quite good. This is because the series is following a similar pattern to the original Star Trek films, i.e. the odd-numbered ones are always worse (in Star Trek this is a statistically proven fact).

Anyway, in Civ:

CivII - definite improvement over CivI
CivIII - kind of a regression when compared to SMAC
CivIV - definite improvement over CivIII
CiV - kind of a regression when compared to CivIV

So 6 will be a definite improvement. Pre-order when you can.

Not if there is going to be a Steam requirement and more insane pc specs to play the darn thing.
 
I removed my copy from my hard disk and rid myself of Steam in the bargain.

It was a good day, that day. :D

Agreed! (Why am I hearing 2112 in my mind? )

Although I still have the pewter figurines and the awesome soundtrack. I might even get out the picturebook, but I'm pretty sure I won't play V again before Complete is released.
 
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