Civ3 GOTM 12 Results Posted

[cracker]

I think everyone can rest assured that reload count is not the only issue that gets looked at.

There are a number of things that can be done to look at whether a game is a credible submission or not. As the automated tools get better and as the review process gets better defined it will be easier to detect things that have been "cheated".

In the big picture, the game has an element of randomness and luck built into it and there are only so many perfectly lucky decisions that you can make in any one game or in any sequence of games.

The "miraculous conception" counter is on and working well, So those players who just "luck" into 5 or 6 perfect plays that would only really be possible via cheating the map or artificially rolling back the fog will begin to stand out.

I should add that in my game this month, the only reason my score got up to the top was because CB went for early domination instead. It helps when the worlds number one dairy farmer takes a month off to pound burgers.

 

[Aeson]

Here are the GOTM 12 results from a different perspective.

 

[Skyfish]

Sorry Melinder but even this I consider cheating.
If one of your city falls into "civil disorder" well tough luck let it be so change the worker setting and get on 'til next round.
What's the big deal ? If you want a real high score then take the time to check all your cities...
Reloading is just a real easy way out, and it should not be allowed in any case (i.e except real huge mistakes caused by a wrong click maybe)

One question to Cartouche Bee : why is it "a waste of time" please ?
Are you part of the "police" or of the one of the organisers ?
Is it fair if the "police" is also participating in the GOTM ? Who is checking their games ?

Sorry I am a bit new to GOTM and those questions might not be relevant...don't want to stir up anything here...

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by Skyfish

One question to Cartouche Bee : why is it "a waste of time" please ?

It 's a waste of time if the results are posted without regard to any of the efforts put into looking at the games.

That's why there are always so many errors in the list.

There are people in that list that did not submit games or Matrix avoided making them available by his own choice. Clear and simple.

 

[Skyfish]

OK so there is a debate about the legitimity/impartiality of the organizers of the GOTM.

I'd like to know more and have some background as to what is going on...is there any threads that talk about this ?

Could you give me some background info as to why :
"There are people in that list that did not submit games"
but still Matrix would post a score for them ? If they did not submit how could they be on the list (I assume you are talking about the GOTM12 results lists) ?

I am very curious to know why you have some issues with Matrix even though you obviously are the best GOTM player ?
I have probably missed many episodes but I'd love to know more...

Thanks for your help,

 

[Bamspeedy]

Melinder - When you start getting too many cities to micromanage, use the governors (control citizen moods). Or at least for all your corrupt cities, and just micromanage your important cities by your palace(s). The governor does a pretty good job (although not perfect, but it won't matter much in your higher corrupt cities).

Skyfish - In defense of Serg, the reload counter counts how many times you load a save. If you only play 5-10 minutes at a time, you will end up having several more 'loads' than someone who plays for a few hours at a sitting. Serg claims that because of work and his schedule he just plays a few minutes at a time. Now that he knows that this would skew his 're-load' counter he would try to only play when he can get a long period of game time in (and that is what he meant by 'now I will play more correctly'). Of course, I have no idea what really happened or have any idea how many 'loads' he had, but I'm just clarifying what the deal is.

You can read about some of this in a few of the threads here. I don't remember the exact names of the threads, but they all have 'cheater' in the title of the thread.

 

[Cruise]

This isn't a courtyard where we decide between live and death. It's just a bunch of very experienced and very good researchers who go to the bottom on investigating the savegames and decide on whether the game is legit or not.

<rant>
I just saw someone made a truly ridiculous poll trying to somehow make a connection between a suspected murderer and a suspected cheater of an online competition of a computer game, in which i am sure you wouldn't even tell your parents and neighbours about if you'd won, simply because they wouldn't give a flying f***. Anyone taking bullcrap that serious should really spend a while outdoors to get snapped back into reality. </rant>

Anyway, there are a number of people who do have short sessions purposely, and looking at their savegames we can conclude there is a regularity and consistency in their games. But unfortunately there are also a number of people (i can mention two but i won't) who try to cheat their way to the top enormously obvious, while hiding behind an excuse. The thing is they don't want to come out with it because they hate to lose their good face. Especially those who were previously so respected by the other gamers for their (false) accomplishment.

I can assure every gamer here that we really have a high tolerance, and that those who do get excluded from the results truly exceeded the boundaries of common sense by about seven miles. If you still do have any doubts let me remind you you play this game voluntarely.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

When we discovered that we were missing games this month it was decided that a list would be posted to help receive missing entries. Some people were able to submit those games to Matrix as confirmed in that thread but those games were not forwarded to be reviewed for reasons unstated.

We also discovered that some of the entries on the list did not have games associated with them and I was told that they do not need to be reviewed because they don't cheat. Some entries had the incorrect win type associated with them, but they were not updated with the results that were posted.

I have been trying to at least get the results to match the games that are submitted (without any success at all), this has nothing to do with cheating but simple administration. The games in the zip file that gets posted should match the results for that month. I know, I'm weird, and no one else involved is really concerned about this but I think that it's important and it's my opinion that we should be trying to achieve a better result.

 

[Matrix]

You're right, CB. I did forgot to take your notes into account. That's because I rushed the results because it was so late; I'm sorry. I'll make those changes when I'm back home (monday).

 

[gskyes]

89th place!
This was my first GOTM, since I just bought Civ3 about two months ago. I have to say that it was a lot of fun. My main goal was not to lose, because it was also my first game on monarch difficulty. But I did fine, and I couldn't have done it without all the help I recieved from reading the strategy articles and forum threads on this site. 89th may not be very high, but it was a victory for me. And hey, I did get the fastest diplomatic victory, but there are no awards for that.
I'm currently in the middle of GOTM#13 with the Aztecs, and I am looking forward to submitting that one too.
I just wanted to say this site is great, and thanks for all the help.

 

[civ_steve]

To you checkers: idle curiosity on my part, but could you generate a distribution curve of the number of reloads? Maybe show the number of reloads in groups going from 10 to 100+ , in groups of 10? (e.g., 3 games had between 10-19 reloads, 8 games had between 20-29 reloads, etc...) I'd be interested in seeing how that stacks up.

 

[ainwood]

Civ_Steve,

It is not really within my remit to publish these - it is up to Matrix to decide.

However, I would think that it is not very constructive to do this. The reason being, is that it would generate lots of suspicion, even if we don't put names or scores or score brackets against the list. In addition, people who don't reload might be encouraged to thinking that they can a few times, because they are below average and could (possibly) get away with it.

What I can say, is that the number of reloads has dropped significantly since it was announced that they can be counted, which is exactly what we wanted to happen.


<side note>

People, please! I don't know how many times it has to be said, but this is a FUN COMPETITION! The results don't really mean anything, except for the indivual who can see there pseudonym placed in a list against other pseudonyms.

However, if you read through this thread and a few others in this forum, you will see that it isn't quite so much fun for Matrix in particular, and a few others involved.

I hope he doesn't mind me saying this, but since he started becoming aware of people cheating, Matrix has lost a lot of enthusiasm for administrating this competition.

If the cheating continues, then the game won't. Simple as that.

I really like this game. It is the only Civ I actually play any more. I am giving up a lot of my free time to write utilities to help Matrix and the others. The others are also giving up a lot of their time to check gamnes. As you can probably tell from some of the posts above, they are starting to wonder whether its worth it.

You cheaters sort it out, or you'll find the competition evaporating before your eyes.

 

[col]

I know it must feel like all you can see are cheaters at times, Matrix. But there are a lot of gamers out there who play honestly for fun and appreciate what you - and the others - do.

If GOTM is abandoned then the cheaters have won.

 

[civ_steve]

Ainwood - Fair enough.

And I echo Col's statements. The Civ3 GOTM is very popular, and the participation has grown considerably. I like the pseudo-competition aspect of it, and it's fun to see all the different results that players attain from a common starting point. I'm sure the vast majority of the participants compete fairly and for the enjoyment of it.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by col
I know it must feel like all you can see are cheaters at times, Matrix. But there are a lot of gamers out there who play honestly for fun and appreciate what you - and the others - do.

If GOTM is abandoned then the cheaters have won.

I feel the same way. I don't usually play civ because I don't have much free time, but once in a while, I do really want to test my skill against the world best players. Therefore, I think this forum is really great and Matrix had done a very good job in keeping it that way. When I posted that silly poll the other day, I was just playing around. I don't mean to offend anyone, especially Matrix. I'm really sorry about that and it won't happen again. From now on, I will always mean business when I post and no more kidding or playing around.

As for the cheaters, they don't really bother me much. Even in their best cheating games, they would hardly match any of the top honest players. Therefore, we shouldn't let a few cheaters spoil the fun.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by Matrix
That's because I rushed the results

You need to join the team.

 

[Matrix]

Ainwood, you're da man! Indeed, I grow tired of the cheaters, but I also think that in particular reloading is something which you might do without really realizing you're actually cheating. It's so easy and obvious to do.

Moonsinger, fair enough.

Cartouche Bee, I don't understand...

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by Matrix

Cartouche Bee, I don't understand...

That explains it!

 

[Skyfish]

Matrix and Ainwood, you guys are doing a geat job !
Please keep the GOTM going and if people don't like it then they don't have to play it !

CB, your animosity towards Matrix is obvious however I don't seen any substance in any of your posts about why ?
Please state your issues in a clear way.

 

[Serg]

When the discussion about reload counter was begun I looked at my counter: it was terrible. I often must play with short time session, now I play only if have several hours for playing the game - Bamspeedy was right. I havn't power comp and 'J'-operation and someone else let me confuse result. I reloaded in this case. When I have many cities (>50) I often couldn't end one turn in one session. And when I loaded the game from the site I always start the game and immediately save it with other name.

I didn't want play the GOTM13 because havn't enough time for this especially if I can't play short session. But I try begin the game only for read what the game is in this month. And I... get early settler (placing first city one tile left and entering the hut by worker - best chance to get free settler). Further on the monarch level all are clearly... and I'm affraid to submit this game (if I will ended it, now only 1300BC 5 session - 5 reloads).