[CIV4] Replay #9 - Beating Deity

[Seraiel]

And there we are at 1 AD already!





Capital really grew, got an Aequeduct and is building the NE atm. Note that NE in capital is often the best choice for normal games.

The land we claimed is really good, at least for Boreal measurements, all cities are connected and have improved Food! Silver claimed, Seafood claimed, Horses not claimed yet. Chopping has begun.



City working all possible Specialists and not the Cottage, which is because I hope to get a Great Spy with low chances. Of course, a Great Scientist would be great too, and a Great Engineer is usually always great, let's look at the techs:





This is basically what I expected. All Civs have run away in tech, so we need a good Trade-chip to get onto the Tech-trade-train again. Lincoln got Theology and even with having gotten Confucianism, there is no possibility to trade it from him, so I'm going to steal it! He got a city near our capital, only things that have to be done is getting Spies to him!
We're researching Philosphy with 0% to get enough Beakers for the trade.



Only things that changed are the Specialists, and that the city is now producing some City-garrisons. I probably would skip on the 2nd in my current games, because happiness is usually not a problem in Domination / Conquest games.



4th city, got whipped for the Sacrificial Altar in order to produce Spies.



5th city, growing just a little too fast for the Forge to have been finished, so therefor running a normal Citizen specialist. Mids are just great.



6th city, getting the Granary right now.



7th city, this city got the Granary just a little earlier because it could use overlapped Food and because it didn't need to build a Workboat. Note that coastal cities are always slow in developement.



8th city, a new one, I think that this city is going to get the Globe because it has tripple Food.



9th city, has double Food + 1 Food overlapped, this is also a good production city.



What a genius city! This city just fit between the capital and the 9th and 4th city, has 2 Food + 1 Food overlapped.

Settling finished.





De Gaulle made peace, but therefor Brennus is now poking Roosevelt. Roosevelt bribed Peter on Brennus, this is not good because we wanted Peter to declare war on one of the good AIs, but at least it's good, that our neighbour Roosevelt, from whom we also stole the Worker is getting continously weakened.



We've switched to Slavery just for the Moment, all cities have borderpops, Specialists can be run via buildings in 95% of the cases and whipping Granaries is just too important with building of course only as few Workers as necessary, which is 12 Workers atm.
Usually one can do with 1 Worker / city + 1 extra for the Capital, but on this map with so many Forrests and no rivers connecting our cities, more Workers are mandatory.



We're on the last places everywhere, except for the land claimed. Claiming good land is the most important thing, so from this time onwards, we can call this round a win.
The GNP with making 132 / turn is definately something we have to work on, but hey, without Mids, we would only have Hammers as a source of economy, and we have 3 World-Wonders + the Parthenon! GPs are gonna make our way, the next one is already almost complete, and:



We already got enough on Lincoln to steal from him, and Theology is one of the most awesome trading chips, because AI doesn't trade it away, it has a high enough beaker-value to get most of the era's techs era through it, and it unlocks Theocracy, the best Civic to run in Domination / Conquest games after Bureacracy!

So, what we learn:

• A good empire is made up by having good cities.
• More cities is almost always better.
• Boreal is a completely stupid mapscript, where the AIs run away in tech, and without having the Mids, one would have no economy at all.
  At least the mapscript does offer Food, so expansion works good and Mids + Boreal have great synergy.
• AIs often research Currency early, to get it by trade though, one often has to have 1 or 2 AIs on friendly early, usually through religion + fair trade-bonus, sometimes also through trading resources.
• Mansa going for Philosophy is always a good thing.
• Getting the right religion early enough is one of the major factors that make a good game.
• Good games are games where one has much land. (This is not true for Culture and Diplomacy games. )
• The Parthenon in a specialist-driven enviroment is a good Wonder.
• The GL is one of the best Wonders there is in the game, because it gives the most 's of any Wonder, and built in the capital and running REP, it also generates a definately mentionable amount of Beakers.
• Getting GE's is (almost) always good.
• Tech-steals in low-research enviroments like Boreal are not only awesome, but simply a must because they're cheaper.
• Tech-steals get cheaper when the target-civ has a different religion and if the city from which one steals has one's own religion.
• Expansion comes first!
  One can always catch up in tech, but one cannot catch up in expansion without warfare, and warfare is difficult and risky early in the game. Especially the faster the speed, the more difficult early warfare gets, so claim as many good ("non-Jungle + having Food! " ) spots as you can get.
• Granaries, Forges and Barracks are the most important buildings in Domination / Conquest games. Courthouses are usually not needed, at least not early, Libraries are only needed in specific cities and mainly for Culture and Specialist reasons.
  An exception of this is always the capital, especially if it has good Food and maybe Luxuries.
• SPI is an awesome and very powerful trait, CHA otoh is a weak trait. Good cities in good games are usually small cities where the extra happiness is a non-issue.
• Happiness is usually generally a non-issue in Domination / Conquest games. Maybe very early it is, but very early, one can 3-pop-whip Settlers.
• Trade-routes are of extreme importance.
• Food is most important for a city, Trade-routes can override improving the food when being very low on GNP though.
• Large maps allow for more cities then standard-ones.
• 1 Worker / city + 1 extra for the capital is the rule of the thumb. More Workers might be needed in special enviroments.
• Getting a Worker to a freshly founded city can be something even very experienced players fail on. Try to be better!
• Going for "vertical expansion" , so having much land but low pop, does not only prevent AIs DoWs, but is also an extremely efficient way of play in Domination / Conquest games.
• The cities 1-3 are the best for generating GPs. Having more than one GP-Farm is good.
• Even short writeups can be long

Have a nice day .

 

[Seraiel]

You've seen / read 4000 BC to 1 AD already. Following now is 1 AD - 500 AD:



This screen is (almost) like the last screen in the last post, with the difference, that it shows that our Spy, with which we want to steal Theology from Lincoln, already has 20% bonus through being stationary.
2 further Spies are already on their way so this tech-steal won't fail. 1 Spy failing happens often, 2 times failing is already very rare in times before Security Bureas, but 3 Spies should be something like 99% chance to succeed.

75 AD , the first Spy has 50% stationary bonus, I miscalculated the cost of stealing theology slightly:



The city has no Trade-route giving another 20% discount, so I have to invest one more turn:



Roosevelt comes to us, and he's willing to trade Construction. I don't accept, because I want to trade Drama + Theology for something bigger next turn.

One turn later:



64% chance and...



Success with the first Spy.

Just as a comparison: The Spy-mission costed roughly 700 , researching the tech would have been almost one 1.5 times more expensive.

I waste no time and trade Theology around and get Philosphy, Machinery, Calendar, HBR and Civil Service!!!

The tech-screen after the mass-trades:





Looks a lot better now, right?

And it's not finished, a Great Scientist is born in the 2nd city. I begin on researching Paper and don't use the Great Scientist for an Academy, because bulbing Education to get Oxford earlier and using the next GS for an Academy is usually the stronger move.

I do focus on getting another GS by switching to Caste and hiring 3 Scientists in the capital:



I also get Construction via trading one of the many techs I got for Theology. Tech-screen 200 AD: I missed Music





Now I could go to war with Catapults + X, but all the cities are still building nice stuff, like Libraries or Forges, only very few cities are fully set up already. On top, Asoka has Longbows and Mace-pult vs. Longbows works but only with lots of Catapult-losses, so I decide to tech further to go for a Cavalry-rush.
If you ask yourself why no Cuirrassier-rush: I got no Iron! Also, Cavs are a lot stronger than Cuirrassiers.

225 AD:







Also: The AP gets built in Hindu! Now I got even more stuff to develop my empire, every city (if possible) shall get the AP-religion + one of those cheap AP-templs.

All workers are btw. pre-chopping atm. Upgrading Horse Archers wouldn't make any sense, because we got no money, and if we had, it would go into research.

-----------

I sell some techs and trade the Worldmap so I can sustain 100% research. In 400 AD, Education finishes:





I got a low chance Great Artist in between, I use him to start a GA. Next Great Person of interest is a Great spy also in 400 AD:



I use him against Asoka, because Asoka is the only one having Divine Right, so another great trade-chip. Also, Asoka is gonna be the target for the first real war, because he built the Kashi Vishvanath (Hindu shrine) , and some Spy revolts will make the war a lot easier.

Here is a clearview of the cities from 500 AD:



Tenochtitlan starving to get the maximum . Even the stone and the Gems aren't worked because another Great Scientist for an Academy would just be so nice.



Same as before, city trying to starve out a GP, Copper doesn't get worked even though the city is building a University for unlocking Oxford.



3rd city, starved to the max already.



Running Merchants, because 1 GS for an Academy is enough.



Same as before.











So the usual GA + Caste + Pacifism + starve-tactic to generate as many GPs as possible.

----------

So... I wish you a merry christmas, if you got any questions, feel free to ask. It's somewhat a little complicated to reconstruct this game without having taken any notes, but I think I captured the most important stuff.

Next time: Lib -> Rifling!

 

[Eagle777]

Can't wait to see that war

 

[UnforcedError]

Back to Civ 4 and CFC after a very long hiatus. I must say, your videos were exactly what I needed to refresh my memory and to pick up a few new tips. Awesome They're also really unique in focusing on theory and explaining every detail. Not everyone's cup of tea but you really shouldn't be discouraged by that because serious gamers will always appreciate your work. Thanks a lot, Seraiel!

Ps: so how about that war?

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, for UnforcedError and Eagle777:

(Plz notice the awesome new graphics pack I got. It's from vincentsz VIP Mod, and can be downloaded in the download-section of CFC)

I research Liberalism 'til 2T before finishing it. Then I switch to Printing Press. 560 AD, a Great Scientist gets born (90% chance) :



I use him to bulb PP. In the meantime, the AIs are short before finishing Education. I need to hurry up.
Washington, whom I got on friendly is so nice to research Military Tradition, very unusual pick from an AI, but luck is with me this time.

660 AD, the next GS gets born: (lucky, 60% chance)



He builds an Academy.

Replaceable Parts is shortly before finishing. Asoka is researching Liberalism with his usual high teching speed. I'd really like to Lib -> Rifling and trade for Military Tradition to have superearly Cavs, but Rifling is not unlocked yet, I still lack Gunpowder!



Thankfully Roosevelt finishes researching it in 680 AD! (Very lucky. ) I cannot trade it from Lincoln, because I cannot get him to friendly.



Next turn, the AP strikes. Hindus vs. Brennus. This gets me +1 with Roosevelt with whom I still got -3 for stealing his Worker early.



This gets Roosevelt to +9 which is friendly on the spot! (+8 is friendly and I got hidden -1 from being larger than him. )







I trade Nationalism from Washington for stolen Divine Right:



And Military Tradition:



Cavs 760 AD on Boreal!!!

And there is finally a light at the end of the "too-little-research tunnel":



Not really, bulbs and trades are the only thing that keeps me in the game:





This is my favourite moment of every round:



I'm really pushing for the attack on Asoka, which happens only 4 turns later with a handful of Rifles and Cavs + a Spy-revolt:



Again 4T later:



And again 5T later, Asoka's capital is gone. He basically got no defenses in his cities, something like 3-5 Longbows / city, np for the Cavs and the Rifles:



To be continued.

 

[UnforcedError]

How big was your initial stack of rifles / cavs?

 

[Seraiel]

7 Rifles and 3 Cavs for the initial city and 7 Rifles and 2 Cavs were on the way to the front when I declared war in 820 AD.

This is why drafting really is so ultimately powerful, one can produce about 2 units from every city almost instantly. Some cities I drafted 3 times even, some only 1 time though.

What really was to my advantage was that I had so much time to set up the cities really well with Forges and AP-Temples. At 1000 AD, I already had a force of 20 Cavs and 20 Rifles, so I more than doubled my military while being in war. Losing only 1 Rifle during the war 'til then really helped, it was not unexpected though, because my Rifles all had 2 XP due to running Theocracy, so I could promote them to Cover. Ofc, the Cavs even had less problems, due to having an even higher base-STR and 30% chance of withdrawl.

 

[UnforcedError]

So about 20 attack units then, for starters. Wouldn't it have had merit to wait until Steel finishes and build some cannons as well? How many of the initial 20 units survived the day?

 

[Seraiel]

So about 20 attack units then, for starters. Wouldn't it have had merit to wait until Steel finishes and build some cannons as well? How many of the initial 20 units survived the day?

I already answered that UnforcedError. I lost 1 unit 'til 1000 AD, because Longbows are no match for Cover-Rifles and Cavs, especially not with using some Spies to revolt the first city.

Cannons weren't needed, but got into game later.

 

[UnforcedError]

I already answered that UnforcedError. I lost 1 unit 'til 1000 AD, because Longbows are no match for Cover-Rifles and Cavs, especially not with using some Spies to revolt the first city.

Hm. Well just one loss is fine. You were a bit lucky though. I tend to lose a lot more cavs to LBs even with spy missions.
Alright, waiting for the story to unfold

 

[Seraiel]

Hm. Well just one loss is fine. You were a bit lucky though. I tend to lose a lot more cavs to LBs even with spy missions.
Alright, waiting for the story to unfold

Don't forget, that I had Cover-Rifles, and that Boreal almost has no hills-cities. A Cover-Rifle against a LB after a Spy-Revolt is something like 90%+ chance. I agree, that I was a little lucky, but losing 1 unit out of maybe 20 fights with having such chances is actually not far from what is expected.

A little luck is, what makes games stand out like this one though. Still, I had a lot more luck, when I could get Roosevelt to friendly and he had Gunpowder, and also with Washington picking Military Tradition, a rare pick from an AI as most experienced players will know.

 

[UnforcedError]

Yeah, you're totally right. There are not too many hill cities on Boreal. And Cover works like a charm as long as you're only facing LBs.

MT actually matches Washington's flavors, that's probably why he picked it.

 

[Seraiel]

Continuation:

A GM gets born:



He goes to Lincolns capital. The ToA was built by Asoka and will be conquered from me next turn, so the best choice is the biggest coastal city that's available. The benefit was 1500 Gold .
It unfortunately cannot be seen on the screen, because I needed to hold the Shift-key to not make the Merchant move to evaluate which city is best, and Shift + Print is unfortunately a combo to assign a name to a screenshot.



I'm paying decent attention to spreading the AP-religion btw., Tetnochtitlan (the capital) is building nothing but Missionaries. AP-Temples are simply great in rounds that don't end superearly, they cost about 1 pop with being SPI but can be 2pop-whipped with massive OF, and they bring in about as many Hammers as a citizen could generate, so massive gain, as the non-existent citizen doesn't cost maintenance.

I wanted to show you the chances of Cavs against Longbows again, because of the recent discussion:



80% survival-chance against a CG1 LB with full 25% fortification bonus in a 60% city! With a revolt, those chances would be 95%+.
Cover-Rifles have about the same chances btw.

Steel finishes and the next GP is a Great Spy! Awesome! (Chances 10%)



He goes to Mansa, because Mansa has some nice techs, and he's also the next chosen target. Because of this, my Spies were already in place and have 50% bonus!





As you see, those Deity-AIs are really researching like crazy, even with given the same crappy land that I have, and without having the Mids, though more and more are getting REP too. Let's have a look at the Demographics again:



It's frustrating. Somebody (probably Mansa) has 3 times the GNP that I'm able to conduct, but: I'm #1 in production and my land is rising fast!



In 1090 AD, Asoka sees the light:





And it shines over the Aztec empire:



(The real costs were a lot smaller, as I spread Judaism to the city in before, so I could run a different State Religion to Mansa. I switched to Free Religion afterwards, so I didn't stay in Judaism even for a single turn. SPI is just great. )



War over with only little losses, next war already in preparation:







35 units in 1 city? That madman! Well, doesn't matter, as I have over 50 already, and Cannons are getting into the game and the Globe is also almost finished!



I also conquered the Angkor Wat btw., so time for some of those supernice Priest-Specialists. Once the Statue of Liberty will be in, my empire is gonna have a great time



Let's also have a quick look at the newly conquered cities:



Very strong city, tripple Food.



Weak city, only one Food.



Crap city, no Food, but at least I got Iron now.



Weak Food, but a very decent Shrine. I irrigated the Sheep, to be able to spread irrigation up northwards.



Well, capitals are always great. This city got Ironworks, because of the 2 settled GGs and the high food / production.



Nice city, double Food + Horses.



Tripple Food :> .



Double Food.



No Food, but finally some more Luxury and having resources for trade is also rare on Boreal, because there is only so little variety.



This city will become decent, once Mansa's borders are away.



Also very decent double Food city, once Mansa's borders vanish.

So 5 strong to very strong cities + 2 that will become strong once Mansa goes down. Also all cities already have Hinduism, which is another plus, because of Theocracy and AP-Temples. In most of those cities, the Forges didn't get destroyed, which was a little lucky. Most cities even already got a Sacrificial Altar, so all in all, they're really well developed.

A really extremely succesful and giving war, that catapults me forward.

Communism get's finished in 1150 AD, time for a final look at the new demographics with State Property:



Still far behind in GNP, but I make up for that by intelligent trading and well planned espionage. Production and Food are really great with the new cities being online now, and I'm #1 in land too! That together with me being the only one having Rifling + Steel, is really a very good basis to win this game in only very little time.

Next update: "1 war? No. 2 wars? no. 3 wars? no. - Seraiel goes rampage!

Hope you enjoyed this update. Looking forward to questions and critique.

 

[UnforcedError]

Asoka had a fantastic set of cities indeed

 

[Seraiel]

Continuation:

I move the troops directly to their next target, sometimes without healing fully. 1150 AD, so only 6T after Asoka saw the light, war against Mansa starts. The reason: Mansa declared war on Roosevelt, and I'm able to attack his 23 units stack on the open field!







Ok, they're in a Forrest, but this spares me the spy-revolt, and attacking units against 25% fortify is only merely better! Mansa's troops stand no chance, thx to 2 Cannons of doom!



Also, the next Great Spy gets born:



He goes to Washington, because Washington has Corporations, and is researching Steam Power.



Even after this heavy battle and 2 conquered cities later, Mansa still doesn't want to capitulate though?



Don't ask me why, because I don't understand it. It's said, that 40 war success are needed, I'm far over that. Maybe he simply still had too much power. Next turn and again 1 city later, he does though!



I accept his capitulation in 1180 AD, because in the meantime, so since Replay #8, I've found out, that one can win Conquest by simply vassaling everybody. I got enough good cities and Mansa is still very strong, aswell from a military point of view, as he's also far developed, and he has Physics, which I want. Mansa also got Rifling that turn, so warfare with all the Cavs didn't seem so attractive anymore, and he's a very good techer, so short but very effective and successful war.

I btw gift Mansa back 2 small cities, the large Djenne I keep, because it's strong, has a lot of Wonders and some nice Forrests for a National Park.



Same turn, Roosevelt is willing to Peace Vassal, because I have more than 1.5 times his power, more than twice his land, and he's a "land target" (more than 8 bordering tiles, diagonals do count, vassal-territory doesn't) :



Tbh, this was even planned. I noticed Mansa having Roosevelt on friendly, so I assumed relations would be good enough, and I knew, that he'd be intimidated by my power and my land. I didn't knew the exact mechanics like described above yet.

2 for 1!

Funny: I meet Frederick! He was even more unlucky as Peter with his start





This is not good btw., as it gave a lot more room to the other AIs, so those are actually stronger than they should be, see Mansa for example, which ofc now is in my favour.

--------------

So, back to the round: I'm whipping out some Airships, because Airships + Cavs are an awesome combo for fast Conquest. I've also accumulated so many forces and am building troops so fast, that I can declare war on Lincoln and his Vassal Brennus:

I don't wanna keep this too detailed, so we jump to 1250 AD, when Brennus capital and Lincolns first two cities are already gone:








Some numbers:





Losses are really negligible.

I'm not whipping all cities completely to the ground, because I wanna wait 'til Kremlin. They are quite small though, because there are not many good tiles on Boreal, and working bad tiles wouldn't make sense either.



There are also very few trees left on the map, I was really diligent with chopping:



This is again 10T later, Brennus is dead, Lincoln dies more slowly because he was quite large and quite strong though:



I'm using my usual combo of Airships, Cavs and Spies against the strong cities again:



1450, Lincoln is dead too. I didn't capitulate him, because I didn't want to risk him expanding into the territory of the cities which I would raze later. Additionaly, I had the plan to trap Mansa and Roosevelt behind a "wall of cities" , so they couldn't expand too.

With the buildup not stopping, numbers are rising steadily:



Which allows me to declare war on De Gaulle even with Lincoln not having been dead yet:



His Grenadiers are totally no match for the (Pinch-promoted) Cavs and the Airships. This is 1505 AD, and the end of the update:



De Gaulle dead, and Pacal on the way to the grave too!



Believe me, those turns were horrible for me, so many units to move, and moving all units in single, to get the best time for Conquest that's possible. Here are the new statistics:





539 kills while having 52 losses, so roughly a 10:1 kill to death ratio!

And finally, with 53 cities, the true end of the "too little research tunnel" :



And the best: I now got Nukes!



--------------

Make sure you follow the final update of this round too, it's gonna be epic! Again, looking forward to your comments.

Cya.

 

[Pangaea]

Very good wars, as always Seraiel. That's a lot of dead longbows, and 10:1 ratio is impressive. Guess it's down to so many spy revolts? I usually lose many Cuirs and even Cavs to Longbows.

Wondered what "IC" means, but I suppose it's "Irrigation Chain". Look forward to the next update.

Actually, I have a question as well. You mention that it's better to bulb Education early (for Oxford I presume, plus Edu-block) so spent the GS on that instead of building an Academy. From what I have gathered, the "default play" is to get a GS as the first GP, and then build an Academy. Obviously you have done things differently here with GSpy and stealing some techs, but how much different do you think it would have been if you had built an Academy with the GS instead of bulbing Edu?

 

[Seraiel]

Very good wars, as always Seraiel. That's a lot of dead longbows, and 10:1 ratio is impressive. Guess it's down to so many spy revolts? I usually lose many Cuirs and even Cavs to Longbows.

Wondered what "IC" means, but I suppose it's "Irrigation Chain". Look forward to the next update.

Actually, I have a question as well. You mention that it's better to bulb Education early (for Oxford I presume, plus Edu-block) so spent the GS on that instead of building an Academy. From what I have gathered, the "default play" is to get a GS as the first GP, and then build an Academy. Obviously you have done things differently here with GSpy and stealing some techs, but how much different do you think it would have been if you had built an Academy with the GS instead of bulbing Edu?

Thx for the compliment .

We ran calculations on Academy vs. Oxford in SGOTM 18 with Team Kakumeika, and it showed, that getting Oxford a significant number of turns earlier outweighs the delay of an Academy, or even can outweigh an Academy at all (if the game is short enough) !
In this specific game, bulbing Education was invaluable, because I would not have been able to Lib -> Rifling if I hadn't bulbed Edu + PP. Bulbing Education instead of building an Academy with the 1st GS has become standard play for me.

 

[WastinTime]

how much different do you think it would have been if you had built an Academy with the GS instead of bulbing Edu?

With a 'typical' HoF start, and with certain victory conditions, and/or with a PHI leader, or OCC, you still want to consider an Academy. An SG game, or GotM game doesn't usually have a monster capital. This game, on Boreal, also is not worth having an Academy -- only has one gem.

 

[Seraiel]

With a 'typical' HoF start, and with certain victory conditions, and/or with a PHI leader, or OCC, you still want to consider an Academy. An SG game, or GotM game doesn't usually have a monster capital. This game, on Boreal, also is not worth having an Academy -- only has one gem.

I somehow have the memory, that you didn't even build an Academy in your 700 AD Spacerace? Though that also didn't have the "typical HoF start" .

 

[WastinTime]

I somehow have the memory, that you didn't even build an Academy in your 700 AD Spacerace? Though that also didn't have the "typical HoF start" .

Also not a PHI leader. On Marathon, it takes 50 turns just to get one and 100 turns to get two.

And with research ending at 515 AD, I couldn't justify one.