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Civ5 vs Civ6 - what each of those games did better?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Krajzen, Aug 2, 2020.

  1. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    I'll certainly concede @Morningcalm that the Warlords track was better than I remembered. I guess at the time I loved Baba Yetu so much that I would linger in the menu's a little longer to hear it run it's course. Once it was gone in Warlords; quite unfairly the track that replaced it wore my disdain. I rarely if ever heard beyond the first 20 seconds or so as I headed into the game! Forgive me...I was young :mischief:

    Don't get me wrong. I'm all about more rather than less choice. I suspect however when it came to deciding what resources to prioritise, that with Christopher Tin back on board making another Civ theme, they decided that (given the popularity of his last outing) they could run with the one theme for the whole game from start to finish. And given it doesn't play in the game itself, and is excellent just as B.Y. before it, I think they got that call right. Better having more music resources go into the actual soundtrack of the game itself imo.
     
  2. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Emperor

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    Music=epic now? Again what about Overly Sarcastic Productions? They use informal and casual language. I mean look at their video on Ethiopia history for example

    When talking about Battle of Adwa they used a fricken MEME! ( all your base belong to us) But does it make their video bad and unfitting for history? Should Red and Blue be ashamed and be kicked from youtube?
     
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  3. LastSword

    LastSword Prince

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    Seems like thread degenerated into discussing very meaningful yet single aspect of game. Sometimes I wonder why they even add games to music menus.
    About cheap jokes, there is huge difference between simple fellows desperately trying to get views and established game company with their X iteration of known franchise. And video is something you watch one time (or 0 if you know there are cheap jokes in there), while games like Civ are designed to be repeatable... and cheap jokes become old quickly once you heard them.

    Aesthetics: my favourite comparision is based on settler icons. Map is also less readable in Civ6.
    UI: I have this assumption that Civ6 looses hard this one, but I will see after more play, maybe it has sense. (like seriously unit panel at the right opens possible options to the left?) Right-clicking not moving you to civilopedia and much more.
    Leaderheads: Black fading ruins all the work put into animations (lack of transition into idle); 90% of interactions are nods, angry nods anyway; turned off. I would prefer them to go back to civ4 small windows.
    Dirty: Apparently managing citizens do not refresh city banner; top panel is rarely updated as well. Good direction?
    Wonders' cinematics: What a waste of resources.
    64bit: Civ6!
    Advanced Setup/Game Menu: uhh, like why do not they let me put as many civs/city-states as I want; limited options in comparision to Civ5.
    Flexibility: In general Civ6 seems a lot worse if you try playing anything but "standard" settings.
    Wonders: I was happy they became Improvements... however they seem unworthy to be build in Civ6. Questionable design.
    AI: Civ6 went fully into AI becoming a background, openly reducing them to systems instead at least trying to simulate another player. I do not like that direction.
    Map/Game World: Increased importance of map/land tiles/cities; world feels small.
    Price + DLC amount: Civ6!
    Tech Tree/Progression: Civ5. Mechanically they are the same, but Civ5 is just better planned and transition through eras feels smoother.
    Social Polcies/Culture Tree/Civics: well, Social Policies were bad... but Civics are even more boring. I am not a fan of Tech Trees in current form.
    Being a step forward for series: Civ5 > Civ5 2.

    I could go on with smaller systems (envoys indeed are better than influence!), but they don't truely matter.
     
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  4. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Disagree with much of what you said; but this in particular (other than hills) is clearly very wrong.
     
  5. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    You're funny--you want Civ games to be like Monty Python and Disney/Pixar films?

    I can cite any number of historical video channels that are not casual and focus on the epicness of history, and they tend to outnumber any historical videos that are casual (heck, even the seemingly casual show "Extra History" focuses on the epic nature of history, as in their video series on Admiral Yi Sunshin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ieaDfD_h6s).

    Just a few other examples of video series focusing on the epic and/or serious nature of history (I can only fit five videos per post, unfortunately):







    Yeah, the Warlords tune was actually quite good!

    As to resources and prioritization, that's just it--Civ VI overall prioritized less of the aesthetics, and that lent itself to criticisms (I'm not just talking about the recycled leader animations for the NFP leaders, of course, but the backgrounds, cutscene-nature of leader interactions, and so on. I think given that the main menu music is something we always hear before each game, it would make more sense if they had new expansion menu themes later on to choose from too. I spend more than 20 seconds on the main menu as I configure settings and look around (and in the times of Civ V I liked to read the Civilopedia from the main menu too). I suspect I'm not alone in that regard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
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  6. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    I watch a few of these video channels; and do like their presentation. But that doesn't mean that Civ has to be all serious. And I lean towards the dark and gritty over fluff in most media (DC over Marvel, ASOIAF over lesser fantasy, etc). But Civ has always had an irreverent undertone (5 aside); which I do like.

    Alas, I suspect you are more alone than you realise MorningCalm. But that's okay. So am I in many of my preferences. I don't think 6 prioritised aesthetics less than 5. It just went a different direction. The quality is still right up there. I mean 5 was beautiful in many ways (and the smoke - Oh the horror of those pillars of smoke in war...); yet it's trees were static smudges of paint. I loved zooming in, in 4 to watch the trees wave in the wind. And then that was oddly gone, replaced by smudges of paint.
     
  7. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Emperor

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    Sooooo no funny in history? History should only be about "epic" battles and serious events? Also Extra history dose not always focus on epic history. You know. They focus on great people- or important events and just a theme. For example what about recently finished episode of polynesia voyages? It isn't about Epic battles, nor is it about great battle. Does it mean it is a bad video?
     
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  8. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Wasn't sure if I should post in this thread considering I've mainly only played Civ 6, and very little of Civ 5, but I decided to put my thoughts here:

    The one thing that I do agree that Civ 5 does better is the leader backgrounds feeling more alive. That being said the leaders in Civ 5 are quite stoic in their appearance and less animated. As a result I prefer the Civ 6 leaders more even if some do feel cartoonish at times. That being said the most animated leader, Kupe, isn't cartoonish in appearance at all.

    When I see the map of Civ 5 it's really dark and doesn't feel as inviting or vibrant compared to Civ 6.

    I also don't mind the cheesy tech and civic quotes because anything that Ned Stark/ Boromir reads will sound epic to me. :D

    Don't ask me about AI.
     
  9. Killer Rabbit

    Killer Rabbit Chieftain

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    Say what you will about Civ 5 vs. 6 (I think 6 is far superior in everything aside from maybe endgame & ideologies) but you cannot honestly tell me with a straight face that Civ 6 is a product of “obvious cost-cutting”. It surely has the largest production budget of any title in the series so far and the production values are the highest in the 4X genre by far.

    You can disagree with how the budget was allocated but you can’t say it was a game made on the cheap because that’s simply untrue.
     
  10. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Again, you and Kupe Navigator misrepresent my viewpoint. I never anywhere said “Civ had to be all serious”. I said that specific aspects of Civ VI undermine the gravitas for a game using a historic backdrop, pointed out people often present history to focus on its “epic” elements (hence, gravitas), and presented multiple historic videos specifically to counter Kupe Navigator’s point about the only one casual YouTube history channel he cited. (He previously generalized Civ VI as being comparable to YouTube history while Civ V was more serious).

    Suspecting a point has no validity when not backed by evidence. As to the minor point on spending time on the main menu, consider that it does take time to mouse over and click the various settings to set up a Civ VI game if one cares about such things (map type, map size, AI difficulty, which civ and/or leader to play). Streamers like PotatoMacWhiskey and others typically take more than 20 seconds just to configure their games. So no, I am not alone there. And we lack data on people who read the Civilopedia from the Civ V main menu, so we can’t tell how alone I am (or not alone) in that, though we can be absolutely sure the number of people doing that from the Civ VI main menu is nil, since it’s not even an option to access the Civilopedia from the Civ VI main menu.

    As for graphics, regardless of our personal preferences as to aesthetics (as to Civ IV, Civ V, or Civ VI), it’s pretty widely known that Civ VI had far more outcry over its graphics than any prior Civ entry. It was, and remains, a divisive topic: https://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?4281419-Which-graphics-do-you-like-better-Civ-5-or-Civ-6
    https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/commen...utm_term=active&utm_content=comments_view_all
    https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Civ-6-such-a-bad-game
    https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/6p1fo4/what_makes_v_better_than_vi_to_many_people/

    Marbozir recently played Civ VI as Rough Rider Teddy with the Civ V terrain mod (he dislikes Civ VI’s cartoony style): (note that the trees don’t look like smudges; they have clearly defined albeit painterly edges and you can tell they are trees fairly easily; the same cannot be said of trees and other things in the Civ VI leader backgrounds)

    As someone who has been on this forum since before Civ V launched, I can honestly say I don’t recall much outcry over Civ V graphics at all compared. If anything there was overall positive feedback and/or praise for them (and not just the Art Deco icons).

    And even the media in some cases preferred Civ VI over Civ V for reasons aside from graphics, or commented on how it took Civ VI longer than expected to surpass the number of people playing the far older Civ V: https://www.strategygamer.com/articles/civilization-6-vs-civilization-5/
    https://thebests.kotaku.com/let-s-rank-the-civilization-games-worst-to-best-1842571299/amp
    https://www.pcgamesn.com/civilization-vi/gathering-storm-expansion

    History doesn’t need to be about battles or “serious events” (what do you even mean by that term?) to be epic. Extra History’s focus has always been on significant events or great people, and that fits gravitas far better than Civ VI’s quotes about Mount Kilimanjaro’s wifi or the Roman Empire and air conditioning. :)

    Do you have evidence that Civ VI “surely has the largest production budget of any title in the series so far”? Because that sounds like speculation, and the use of the word “surely” tips the hat in that regard. What I recall about Civ V is that due to the expense of animating the leader backgrounds (which was almost as expensive as unit animations, apparently), there was speculation Firaxis opted to switch out the background animations for static paintings in Civ VI (why they had to smudge the edges with darkness is anyone’s guess). And the leader backgrounds aren’t the only obvious place where Firaxis cut costs for Civ VI, as we know—the relatively unchanged main menus of Civ VI (music, graphics) are also clear cost-cutting measures and hardly attest to your claim that Civ VI has the best production values of a 4x title.

    In fact the only area I can think of where Civ VI *might* have had a higher budget than Civ V was in the music category (but even that is dubious because though Firaxis didn’t use licensed music for the background music this time around, they recycled leader themes for most eras and featured some original ambient music for early eras only).

    Well, at least we can agree on the smudged black leader backgrounds of Civ VI (as far as dark or not being inviting or vibrant, Civ VI’s leader backgrounds fit that description far better than Civ V’s graphics).

    Kupe looks somewhat cartoonish but less so than others because they used motion capture for him *alone* of all the leaders.

    As mentioned earlier, I don’t mind Sean Bean’s voice either, but I think he was provided terrible lines to read, and they don’t suit his peaceful style. He’s a bit more earnest than cynical, so even some of the funnier quotes like a certain Monty Python quote end up being under-delivered.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  11. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    For what it's worth, I generally prefer the presentation of Civ V. It is not a huge deal, but it does matter a bit. I prefer the general art style, the map, the leader scenes, and believe it or not, the wonder paintings. It seems like the 3D animations of wonders being "built" should be more impressive, but to me, it makes all the wonders feel samey, and I got more out of the rich, detailed paintings of Civ V. Other games have used full blown cut scenes, which are also cool, but perhaps not necessary.

    And yes, the quotes are bad.
     
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  12. Myomoto

    Myomoto King

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    Yea, the wonder animations in VI are cool, but I got a much bigger sense of actual "wonder" when seeing the small slice of life pictures of the wonders in their glory time, combined with the music and quote.

    Building Chichen Itza, the Eiffel tower, Prora, the Colossus, and several others in V still gives me goosebumps.
     
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  13. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    I am not misrepresenting your view point. We are disagreeing is all.

    Sorry I disagree. It does have validity; but only at a suspicion level, not at any confirmation level. And we're all here allowed to suspect as much as we want. By prefacing that I suspect something I am making sure that everyone knows I am not claiming to have evidence which could make it factual.

    I suspect they used that to get the Haka down perfect, rather than try to have people animate it...which could have gone badly. I'll agree with you on Bean too. I loved the idea of him as a narrator; yet I think you are correct when you say that he's better suited in a vocal only role for something less dramatic. I think Nimoy set a standard yet to be broken.

    Fair play; but I love seeing the wonder videos and how they are different every time due to having where I have built them as part of the animation. The final product (before I exit out of the wonder vid window) often get's screen shotted and ends up my background on my PC :love:

    Some are. Most are fine; and more -than are bad- are brilliantly good. Just a few examples:

    "There is little man has made that approaches anything in nature, but a sailing ship does."

    "Bronze is the mirror of the form, wine of the mind."

    "Set your course by the stars, not by the lights of every passing ship."

    "Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants."
     
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  14. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    I accept this correction, I think it is fairer to say that they are a mixed bag, and I agree that the examples you provided are all good quotes. I don't know what the ratio of good to bad is, but think the bad ones might have gotten more attention because they are rather jarring.

    As for the wonder animations, there is one I actually watch most of the time: The Potala Palace, as it is usually in a scenic spot. I would probably still have enjoyed a Civ V-style painting more, though.
     
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  15. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Nope. You said, "I watch a few of these video channels; and do like their presentation. But that doesn't mean that Civ has to be all serious." I then objected, pointing out I never said anywhere "Civ has to be all serious". Your statement that "But that doesn't mean that Civ has to be all serious" erroneously implied that was my view. But as we already agreed a while back in this thread, *some* silliness is fine, and what's problematic about Civ VI beyond that is how much of that lack of gravitas comes from cynical/overly-negative quotes, plastic-looking unit icons/main menus, and cost-cutting (leader backgrounds with smudged black edges and muted colors for example).

    Saying you "suspect" something implies a statement has more credibility than it does. For example, if I said "I *suspect* Civ VI cut costs in the graphics department." alone, without following it up with any reasons, I would say that has no more validity than any declarative statement, like @Killer Rabbit's declaration "Say what you will about Civ 5 vs. 6 (I think 6 is far superior in everything aside from maybe endgame & ideologies) but you cannot honestly tell me with a straight face that Civ 6 is a product of “obvious cost-cutting”. It surely has the largest production budget of any title in the series so far and the production values are the highest in the 4X genre by far. You can disagree with how the budget was allocated but you can’t say it was a game made on the cheap because that’s simply untrue." Following up a statement like "I suspect" with reasons for that suspicion is more conducive to productive conversation, and also lends more clarity.

    Well, at least we can agree on that. I liked Nimoy a lot too. What did you think of Morgan Shepperd (Civ V's narrator)? I quite liked him as well, though not as much as Nimoy (who I was unfamiliar with when I played Civ IV, but liked anyway).

    Yes, agreed that those are good, but those good quotes are outnumbered by the following samples of problematic quotes in Civ VI which were inaccurately sourced, cynical, negative, irrelevant, or just bad jokes (note that there are more bad ones which are discussed at https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/85d0xr/what_is_up_with_the_sarcasticantiprogress_quotes/, but these are the ones that stood out on my last skipthrough):
    1. "As it turns out, Mount Kilimanjaro is not wi-fi enabled, so I had to spend two weeks in Tanzania talking to the people on my trip.”
    2. “It was luxuries like air conditioning that brought down the Roman Empire. With air conditioning their windows were shut; they couldn’t hear the barbarians coming.”
    3. “Mysticism is the mistake of an accidental and individual symbol for a universal one.”
    4. “I like to say I practice militant mysticism. I’m absolutely sure of some things that I don’t quite know.”
    5. "The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."
    6. "If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."
    7. “Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.”
    8. “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.”
    9. "Who deserves more credit than the wife of a coal miner?”
    10. “I don’t believe in astrology; I’m a Sagittarius and we’re skeptical.”
    11. “The four building blocks of the universe are fire, water, gravel and vinyl.”
    12. “There is no easy way to train an apprentice. My two tools are example and nagging.”
    13. “Remember that people break down, too, not just machinery.”
    14. “You can’t go around arresting the Thieves’ Guild. I mean, we’d be at it all day!”
    15. “Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government … You can’t expect to wield supreme power just ‘cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!” - Arguably a good quote for fans of Monty Python (like me), but bad delivery.
    16. "If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more, and become more, then you are a cartographer." - Not even a real quote. https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/5fab7c/one_of_the_quotes_for_cartography_is_totally_fake/
    17. “What can be labeled, packaged, mass produced is neither truth nor art.”
    18. “I saw a bank that said ’24-Hour Banking,’ but I didn’t have that much time.”
    19. “The real use of gunpowder is to make all men tall.”
    20. “Defense is superior to opulence.”
    21. "I've lived through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened."
    22. “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.”
    23. “All the best romances bloom in the midst of a good siege.”
    24. “With the advance of feudalism came the growth of iron armor, until, at last, a fighting-man resembled an armadillo.”
    25. “Being a mercenary, though … Hey, we just go wherever there’s a mixture of money and trouble.”
    26. “It’s all papers and forms, the entire civil service is like a fortress made of papers, forms and red tape.”
    27. “A diplomat is a man who always remembers a woman’s birthday but never remembers her age.”
    28. "I don't like to commit myself about Heaven and Hell, you see, I have friends in both places."
    29. “The key words of violent economics are urbanization, industrialization, centralization, efficiency, quantity, speed.”
    30. “If facts don’t fit the theory, change the facts.” - This for Scientific Theory, no less.
    31. “Colonialism. The enforced spread of the rule of reason. But who is going to spread it among the colonizers?”
    32. “Opera is when a guy gets stabbed in the back and, instead of bleeding, he sings.”
    33. "Had I been present at the Creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe."
    34. “It’s one thing to surmise what happened, but we don’t speculate on that until ballistics confirms what happened …”
    35. “Let’s get on our knees and pray. I don’t know to whom. Is there a patron saint of ballistics yet?”
    36. “It’s the Industrial Revolution and the growth of urban concentrations that led to a sense of anonymity.”
    37. "Always try to rub up against money, for if you rub against money long enough, some of it may rub off on you."
    38. “The effect of the mass media is not to elicit belief but to maintain the apparatus of addiction.”
    39. "If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed."
    40. “If winning isn’t everything, why do they keep score?” - The other Professional Sports quote is much better.
    41. “Chemistry is the dirty part of physics.”
    42. “Chemists do not usually stutter. It would be very awkward if they did, seeing that they have at times to get out such words as methylethylamylophenylium.”
    43. “The cars haven’t advanced that much since we were kids. When you boil it down, it’s still a gas combustion engine.”
    44. “NASA spent millions of dollars inventing the ball-point pen so they could write in space. The Russians took a pencil.” - A false story. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/
    45. “Sure, jets are fast and economical, but, oh my, what fun we’ve lost and what leisure we’ve sacrificed in the race for efficiency.”
    46. “If God had really intended men to fly, He’d make it easier to get to the airport.”
    47. “Rocket science has been mythologized all out of proportion to its true difficulty.”
    48. “When you launch a rocket, you’re not really flying that rocket. You’re just sort of hanging on.”
    49. “Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets.”
    50. “In the hierarchy of the major poetic substances, plastic figures as a disgraced material, lost between the effusiveness of rubber and the flat hardness of metal.”
    51. “To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.”
    52. “There’s so much plastic in this culture that vinyl leopard skin is becoming an endangered synthetic.”
    53. "There may be no forgiveness for polyester. On this one matter, Satan and the Lord are in agreement.”
    54. “Mr. Watson… Come here… I want to see you." - There are many better, more illustrative quotes that do not rely on knowing the context of this particular conversation and what it led to.
    55. “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”
    56. “A satellite has no conscience.”
    57. “Right now there are thirty-one satellites zipping around the world with nothing better to do than help you find your way to the grocery store.”
    58. “I love watching my mom argue with the GPS on the way home.”
    59. "I would say invisibility would be sort of a fun power to have just to see what it was like to move through the world and not be looked at."
    Of note, I would say overall that Civ IV had more serious quotes than Civ V did. It's because Civ V had fewer truly awful, cynical, negative or "dad joke" quotes than Civ VI that the above quotes really stand out.

    I agree. Initially I was annoyed at the Civ V wonder paintings replacing the wonder building videos, but I was won over by the music, the great quotes (especially the Pyramids and Chichen Itza), and yes, the historical context (I only found a few I didn't like, like the Roman soldiers at the Parthenon). Civ IV had better wonder building videos than Civ VI I would say, if only because they were more creatively presented. Who can forget these? (skip to the 0:18 mark to get to the start of the wonder videos)


    Of course, the Civ IV wonder videos don't have quotes, in which regard Civ V and VI wonder videos are superior.

    Exactly--it's the historic flavor from those videos and the mix of various cool audiovisual media (the quotes, the music, etc) that really made them glorious.

    I also miss Civ V's era progression videos and those nice banners you would see floating at the start of each turn, like "Consul Montezuma, 2000 BC", and so on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  16. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I mean, I get this stuff is subjective, but I really like most of those quotes. I think the tone is about right.
     
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  17. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    There are so many listed that without more specifics I can't comment more except to say I dislike all the ones I listed--the quotes are poorly sourced, negative/cynical (about the very civic or tech they are about), lacking in context or illustrativeness, or "dad" jokes that do not translate well. Overall I would say the earliest quotes from Civ VI tend to be the most problematic, but maybe that's just because most of my games go through that era (I usually win before the modern era).
     
  18. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Chieftain

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    Why are cynical and negative bad things?
     
  19. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Your whole argument is that you don't want any fluff or silliness. You don't even like that the initial delegation often has subtle humour in it; let alone more obvious and lasting displays. Anything like that reduces Civ's gravitas - you are very clear on that. I have not misrepresented you.

    That is news to me.

    I'm not sure what your point is. If I say I suspect something, it means simply that. I believe that X has been done for Y; but I have no evidence. Ergo I suspect it only. It makes sense that I don't provide evidence. Were I to, I wouldn't say "I suspect". I am not asking you or anyone else to read anything more into it, than exactly that. It is my very subjective opinion. Easily ignored ;)

    Better than Bean overall; but likewise, he missed the mark to a degree. His voice gets tedious in a different way; though I'd have to go back and listen to a few Civ 5 quotes to describe what I don't like about it accurately.

    I'm going to go down your list and colour in blue the ones I like. And in red the ones I roll my eyes at. Just cos this is all very subjective :p
    1. "As it turns out, Mount Kilimanjaro is not wi-fi enabled, so I had to spend two weeks in Tanzania talking to the people on my trip.”
    2. “It was luxuries like air conditioning that brought down the Roman Empire. With air conditioning their windows were shut; they couldn’t hear the barbarians coming.”
    3. “Mysticism is the mistake of an accidental and individual symbol for a universal one.”
    4. “I like to say I practice militant mysticism. I’m absolutely sure of some things that I don’t quite know.”
    5. "The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." (They really have been!)
    6. "If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."
    7. “Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.”
    8. “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” (Tis true)
    9. "Who deserves more credit than the wife of a coal miner?”
    10. “I don’t believe in astrology; I’m a Sagittarius and we’re skeptical.”
    11. “The four building blocks of the universe are fire, water, gravel and vinyl.”
    12. “There is no easy way to train an apprentice. My two tools are example and nagging.”
    13. “Remember that people break down, too, not just machinery.”
    14. “You can’t go around arresting the Thieves’ Guild. I mean, we’d be at it all day!”
    15. “Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government … You can’t expect to wield supreme power just ‘cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!” - Arguably a good quote for fans of Monty Python (like me), but bad delivery.
    16. "If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more, and become more, then you are a cartographer." - Not even a real quote. https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/5fab7c/one_of_the_quotes_for_cartography_is_totally_fake/
    17. “What can be labeled, packaged, mass produced is neither truth nor art.”
    18. “I saw a bank that said ’24-Hour Banking,’ but I didn’t have that much time.”
    19. “The real use of gunpowder is to make all men tall.” (It's true - guns are the great leveller)
    20. “Defense is superior to opulence.” (Also true)
    21. "I've lived through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened."
    22. “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.”
    23. “All the best romances bloom in the midst of a good siege.”
    24. “With the advance of feudalism came the growth of iron armor, until, at last, a fighting-man resembled an armadillo.”
    25. “Being a mercenary, though … Hey, we just go wherever there’s a mixture of money and trouble.”
    26. “It’s all papers and forms, the entire civil service is like a fortress made of papers, forms and red tape.”
    27. “A diplomat is a man who always remembers a woman’s birthday but never remembers her age.”
    28. "I don't like to commit myself about Heaven and Hell, you see, I have friends in both places."
    29. “The key words of violent economics are urbanization, industrialization, centralization, efficiency, quantity, speed.”
    30. “If facts don’t fit the theory, change the facts.” - This for Scientific Theory, no less.
    31. “Colonialism. The enforced spread of the rule of reason. But who is going to spread it among the colonizers?”
    32. “Opera is when a guy gets stabbed in the back and, instead of bleeding, he sings.”
    33. "Had I been present at the Creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe."
    34. “It’s one thing to surmise what happened, but we don’t speculate on that until ballistics confirms what happened …”
    35. “Let’s get on our knees and pray. I don’t know to whom. Is there a patron saint of ballistics yet?”
    36. “It’s the Industrial Revolution and the growth of urban concentrations that led to a sense of anonymity.”
    37. "Always try to rub up against money, for if you rub against money long enough, some of it may rub off on you."
    38. “The effect of the mass media is not to elicit belief but to maintain the apparatus of addiction.”
    39. "If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed."
    40. “If winning isn’t everything, why do they keep score?” - The other Professional Sports quote is much better.
    41. “Chemistry is the dirty part of physics.”
    42. “Chemists do not usually stutter. It would be very awkward if they did, seeing that they have at times to get out such words as methylethylamylophenylium.”
    43. “The cars haven’t advanced that much since we were kids. When you boil it down, it’s still a gas combustion engine.”
    44. “NASA spent millions of dollars inventing the ball-point pen so they could write in space. The Russians took a pencil.” - A false story. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/
    45. “Sure, jets are fast and economical, but, oh my, what fun we’ve lost and what leisure we’ve sacrificed in the race for efficiency.”
    46. “If God had really intended men to fly, He’d make it easier to get to the airport.”
    47. “Rocket science has been mythologized all out of proportion to its true difficulty.”
    48. “When you launch a rocket, you’re not really flying that rocket. You’re just sort of hanging on.”
    49. “Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets.”
    50. “In the hierarchy of the major poetic substances, plastic figures as a disgraced material, lost between the effusiveness of rubber and the flat hardness of metal.”
    51. “To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.”
    52. “There’s so much plastic in this culture that vinyl leopard skin is becoming an endangered synthetic.”
    53. "There may be no forgiveness for polyester. On this one matter, Satan and the Lord are in agreement.”
    54. “Mr. Watson… Come here… I want to see you." - There are many better, more illustrative quotes that do not rely on knowing the context of this particular conversation and what it led to.
    55. “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”
    56. “A satellite has no conscience.”
    57. “Right now there are thirty-one satellites zipping around the world with nothing better to do than help you find your way to the grocery store.”
    58. “I love watching my mom argue with the GPS on the way home.”
    59. "I would say invisibility would be sort of a fun power to have just to see what it was like to move through the world and not be looked at."
    How does 54. compare to one of my Civ 4 faves "Beep...beep...beep..."? :D

    I could find plenty more that I love and a few more that I loathe *cough*Joan Boaz*cough*.
     
  20. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

    Joined:
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    Nope, some fluff and silliness is alright if it's got charm, but fluff and silliness in the context of cynicism and negativity is not; I think that has been made clear. Overall Civ VI doesn't have much gravitas to begin with, but what gravitas there is has been undermined by cynical, negative quotes, cost-cutting and other things I mentioned already--these are things which don't qualify as "fluff" or "silliness" but which do undermine gravitas.

    I don't ignore too easily. :D

    My point is simply saying "I suspect" alone isn't really valid as anything other than a declarative statement of little worth; when backed up by more specifics on why you suspect something it's more valid. :)

    I suppose his voice is overly hoarse at times, but that does tend to lean on gravitas a bit more (we've seen this in movies too).

    I think that's overall fair even if I disagree, seeing as there is necessarily some subjectivity here. I would mark as red many more (i.e., all of them). But to point out a few examples--"Chemistry is the dirty part of physics" (No context) or "Who deserves more credit than the wife of a coal miner?” (What the heck is the point of that quote? What is it suggesting? It's not apparent at all, nor does it shed light on what mining's importance is). Many are just irrelevant. Liking pigs has nothing to do with the technological achievement of animal husbandry. Others are negative, like many quotes on various industrial processes (to be fair, I'm not a huge fan of industry either, but can't we acknowledge the huge leaps in humanity's ability to do more as a result of the Industrial Revolution?).

    I prefer beep....beep...beep (while silly) to a useless, contextless, and irrelevant statement on the conscience of a satellite ("A satellite has no conscience." (How is that relevant to the technological development of satellites?)).

    In the context of Civ? Because the cynical and negative quotes undermine the very tech you researched. Let's say a Civ newbie just researched Machinery and got the quote "Remember that people break down, too, not just machinery.” Is that newbie going to feel inspired by the mention of people and machinery breaking down? I would say it's a bad quote because it undermines the validity of the very tech that you just researched.

    To illustrate further, let's say you researched "Agriculture" and you just got the following quote: "If farm ecology and economics go wrong, nothing else will go right in agriculture". Does that make you feel good about agriculture? This isn't a quote in Civ VI, but it's one I found which matches the tone of some of the more egregiously bad Civ VI quotes (cynical, negative, and undermining the very tech you researched).
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020

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