Civ5 vs Civ6 - what each of those games did better?

[PhoenicianGold]

You're funny--you want Civ games to be like Monty Python and Disney/Pixar films?

I can cite any number of historical video channels that are not casual and focus on the epicness of history, and they tend to outnumber any historical videos that are casual (heck, even the seemingly casual show "Extra History" focuses on the epic nature of history, as in their video series on Admiral Yi Sunshin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ieaDfD_h6s).

Just a few other examples of video series focusing on the epic and/or serious nature of history (I can only fit five videos per post, unfortunately):

Yeah, the Warlords tune was actually quite good!

As to resources and prioritization, that's just it--Civ VI overall prioritized less of the aesthetics, and that lent itself to criticisms (I'm not just talking about the recycled leader animations for the NFP leaders, of course, but the backgrounds, cutscene-nature of leader interactions, and so on. I think given that the main menu music is something we always hear before each game, it would make more sense if they had new expansion menu themes later on to choose from too. I spend more than 20 seconds on the main menu as I configure settings and look around (and in the times of Civ V I liked to read the Civilopedia from the main menu too). I suspect I'm not alone in that regard.

Okay, just gotta get a few quick little comments in.

First, I absolutely agree that the quotes are lackluster and probably the most tedious aspect of the game aside from grindiness. If they were going to go with quotes for every technology and wonder, they should have polished the hell out of Bean's script before proceeding with that feature, and I think it's perhaps the weakest aspect of VI's aesthetics.

Second, I think it is unfair to sweepingly claim that VI prioritized less of the aesthetics. They absolutely didn't. The leader designs are much better researched and reflective of their cultures. The unit and building assets have a lot more care put into cultural accuracy and diversity than V's had, plus now every civ was given at least one unique structure and unique unit to further make each civ feel culturally distinct. And, overall, a lot more effort had to be put in to destacking cities and making sure everything on the map was clearly legible at a glance. The leaders represent a marginal improvement in cultural aesthetic (see particularly Dido and Mansa Musa for comparison), but the devs and indisputably invested more into the map aesthetics. It's not less priority over aesthetic, but reallocating and focusing where their priorities were.

Third, in that same vein, poo-pooing the cartoony aesthetic is a tad narrow-minded. As a matter of design and marketing, it was virtually inevitable. Civ had two major things guiding its design: 1) How do they develop and release what would, at the outset and for most of its development cycle, be at least 2/3 "Civ V: Redux" to players who already had V? And 2) How do they expand their market, attract new casual players, and what are the general trends of the industry that players are latching onto? The answers:

1: Make VI extremely tonally and aesthetically different from V, and focus on different aspects of history. Where V was grand and focused on imperial prowess, VI would need to find a different niche. In this case, they settled on "celebratory" and focused on "cultural richness."

2: Going with aesthetic trends of the industry would certainly help. Grim-n-gritty V was popular in the oughts when CGI was new and we had the Matrix and LOTR and Nolan's Batman, but the entertainment industry slowly moved past that when they realized that hyperrealism doesn't have the widest appeal and doesn't age very well, while Nintendo and Blizzard managed to make a killing year after year with subpar graphics because they went with strong stylization and lighthearded gameplay that avoided controversy. The industry started shifting a bit before 2010, and we started seeing everyone move toward stylization, particularly "Disney-like" aesthetics. Team Fortress 2, Bioshock Infinite, Overwatch. If Civ VI was going to try to be populist and as tonally different from V as possible, this was the natural conclusion.

(3: in line with both of these points, choosing a more stylized design also makes it a lot easier to affordably and reliably add content long-term (and port to other platforms), and if nothing else prolificness and persistence are the best way to grow a fanbase if you can afford to keep it up.)

So I tend to take a different attitude toward the difference in aesthetic that one is good and the other is bad. They're just two different flavors of the same franchise, and as long as they are crafted with intent you can generally find just as much value in the things VI focuses on as the things V focused on.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I prefer beep....beep...beep (while silly) to a useless, contextless, and irrelevant statement on the conscience of a satellite ("A satellite has no conscience." (How is that relevant to the technological development of satellites?)).

You do know civ 5 is no better. sure it had less silly quotes but many of the quotes have little to do with the technological developments
"Acoustics
"Their rising all at once was as the sound of a thunder heard remote."
--Milton
what dose it have to with the development of acoustics?
Advanced Ballistics
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?"
--Tom Hehrer
so? what dose it have to do with ballistics?
Agriculture
"Where tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers therefore are the founders of human civilization."
--Daniel Webster

Animal Husbandry
"Thou salt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn."
--The Bible, Deuteronomy, 25:4
again a Bible verse that tells nothings about Herding the animal
Archaeology
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
--George Santayana

Archery
"The haft of the arrow had been feathered with one of the eagle's own plumes. We often give our enemies the means of our own destruction."
--Aesop
? yeah but what dose it got to do with Archery
Astronomy
"Joyfully to the breeze royal Odysseus spread his sail, and with his rudder skillfully he steered."
--Homer
that quote sounds more to do with sailing than Astronomy
Atomic Theory
"The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophes."
--Albert Einstein

Banking
"Happiness: a good bank account, a good cook and a good digestion."
--Jean Jacques Rousseau
yeah but what does it got to do with Development of banks?
Biology
"If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't."
--Lyall Watson
again no direct connection with Biology- the brain isn't only thing Biology studies
Bronze Working
"Here Hector entered, with a spear eleven cubits long in his hand; the bronze point gleamed in front of him, and was fastened to the shaft of the spear by a ring of gold."
--Homer
again no connection with development of bronze
Calendar
"So teach us to number our days, so that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom."
--The Bible, Psalms, 90:12
so? what does it got to do with Calander?
Chemistry
"Wherever we look, the work of the chemist has raised the level of our civilization and has increased the productive capacity of our nation."
--Calvin Coolidge
again this is just praising chemist not talking about the development of chemisty
Chivalry
"Who pulleth out this sword of this stone and anvil, is rightwise king born of all England"
--Malory
Again no mention about the development of Chalary
Civil Service
"The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency."
--Eugene McCarthy
no mention about how Civil service came to be
Combustion
"Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves."
--Albert Einstein
silly quote that rivals to ones in civ 6
Compass
"I find the great thing in this world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving."
--Oliver Wendell Holmes
again no mention of how compass came to be
Computers
"Computer are like Old Testament gods: lots of rules and no mercy."
--Joseph Campbell
no mention of how computers came to be
Construction
"Three things are to be looked to in a building: that it stand on the right spot; that it be securely founded; that it be successfully executed."
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
no mention about development of construction
Currency
"Better is bread with a happy heart/Than wealth with vexation."
--Amenemope
no mention about development of currency
Dynamite
"As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."
--Christopher Dawson
no mention about the development of Dynamite. Should have used quotes from Nobel himself
Economics
"Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe."
--Albert Einstein
interest isn't only thing economic has. No mention about development of economy
Ecology
"Only within the moment of time represented by the present century as one species, man, acquired significant power to alter the nature of his world."
--Rachel Carson
no mention about development of Ecology
Education
"Education is the best provision for old age."
--Aristotle
so? no mention about development of education
Electricity
"Is it a fact - or have I dreamt it - that, by means of electricity, the world of matter has become a great nerve, vibrating thousands of miles in a breathless point of time?"
--Nathaniel Hawthorne
no mention about the development of electricity

bit too lazy to do the rest but you get the idea.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I don't know why people (well, at least, in this thread) are so obsessed with tech/civic/wonder quotes, when there are many other meaningful and impactful differences between civ5 and civ6.

I just understand them as a flavor thing, and don't mind if they are serious/accurate or not.

On a side note, as far as I know, the Chinese civ community - which (some of you might know) are usually deeply obsessed with efficiency and sub-t200 wins, definitely "serious" players - nicknamed the wonder Mount Kilimanjaro as "Mount Wifi". This is because the full name is too mouthful, and they thought that quote is quite amusing and memorable, so they happily accepted it.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I don't know why people (well, at least, in this thread) are so obsessed with tech/civic/wonder quotes, when there are many other meaningful and impactful differences between civ5 and civ6.

I just understand them as a flavor thing, and don't mind if they are serious/accurate or not.

On a side note, as far as I know, the Chinese civ community - which (some of you might know) are usually deeply obsessed with efficiency and sub-t200 wins, definitely "serious" players - nicknamed the wonder Mount Kilimanjaro as "Mount Wifi". This is because the full name is too mouthful, and they thought that quote is quite amusing and memorable, so they happily accepted it.

yeah and after playing over 100 times both civ 5 and civ 6 quotes have lost their meanings to me. Now I just don't feel any different from them.

 

[Civilwar20]

Hi guys !

I really love Civ 6. The only thing i would rather have from Civ 5 is the Music. I liked Civ 5 Music way better.
What do you guys think ?

Cheers !

 

[nzcamel]

2: Going with aesthetic trends of the industry would certainly help. Grim-n-gritty V was popular in the oughts when CGI was new and we had the Matrix and LOTR and Nolan's Batman, but the entertainment industry slowly moved past that when they realized that hyperrealism doesn't have the widest appeal and doesn't age very well, while Nintendo and Blizzard managed to make a killing year after year with subpar graphics because they went with strong stylization and lighthearded gameplay that avoided controversy. The industry started shifting a bit before 2010, and we started seeing everyone move toward stylization, particularly "Disney-like" aesthetics. Team Fortress 2, Bioshock Infinite, Overwatch. If Civ VI was going to try to be populist and as tonally different from V as possible, this was the natural conclusion.

I disagree (but then I would) with this part. I like gritty etc (as already noted) and have no problem if Civ heads that way again. I don't think it is the case that the bright visuals of 4 & 6 are more popular than the more muted tones of 5 (and 3 to a lesser degree). I think both styles will continue to compete in the franchise going forward.
But who call's this ugly!?

I suspect this image in part is extra striking due to the sea monsters neck kinda rising out of the wheat...but wow!

Spoiler :

On the leader cut scenes; I don't mind that too much, though I'll agree @Morningcalm that it is frustrating when you get incoherantness like this:

Alex has denounced me upon meeting because I am a "badass" war monger for once lol; and moments later he is haranguing me for not fighting for my people. Inconsistency like that irks my immersion to no end; and I'd like them to work harder on fixing this in VII. I mean that is more diplomacy vs agenda's; but it is most apparent when the cut scenes appear.

Spoiler :

 

[KayAU]

You do know civ 5 is no better. sure it had less silly quotes but many of the quotes have little to do with the technological developments

Honestly, I think several of those just illustrate how much better the quotes were in 5. I don't understand what you mean when you say the quotes have little to do with the techs. For example:

Agriculture - "Where tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers therefore are the founders of human civilization."
This is a quote about the importance of agriculture, how it allowed permanent settlements and thus enabled other things which we associate with human civilization.

Archaeology - "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Archaeology is about studying and unveiling the past, the quote is about the importance of such knowledge.

Bronze Working - "Here Hector entered, with a spear eleven cubits long in his hand; the bronze point gleamed in front of him, and was fastened to the shaft of the spear by a ring of gold."
This is an exerpt from a story (well, the Iliad to be precise), featuring a description of a bronze weapon.

You can like or dislike any of the quotes in the list, but I do think they are generally relevant to the tech they are associated with.


Back to wonder movies/animations, I just thought I would post a quick comparison for reference. Here's how Chichen Itza was celebrated in the three latest Civ games.

Civilization IV:

Civilization V:

Civilization VI:

 

[nzcamel]

Honestly, I think several of those just illustrate how much better the quotes were in 5. I don't understand what you mean when you say the quotes have little to do with the techs.

I don't see better from the POV that V will have their clanger quotes too; even if they're rarer inpart due to less quotes being used. Both games have brilliant quotes. VI has a few obvious awful ones; but it's not as big a difference between the two as you make out. I could go through the list from VI fully and pull out many more great quotes than I already have.

Also, I don't agree with all of @Kupe Navigator 's critiques of the quotes from V; but he is using a similar methodology to @Morningcalm .

 

[KayAU]

Well, there isn't really any objective way to say which quotes are good and which are bad, so I suppose this is mostly down to personal opinion. In my opinion though, if that list was meant to show that Civ 5 had bad quotes in a similar way to 6, I just don't see it.

I would also say that I don't recall people really complaining about the quotes in in Civ 5 before, but it definitely has been an issue in Civ 6. Of course, that doesn't make your personal opinion of the quotes "wrong", but I do think it is fair to say more people find Civ 6's quotes objectionable than do Civ 5's.

 

[Morningcalm]

Okay, just gotta get a few quick little comments in.

First, I absolutely agree that the quotes are lackluster and probably the most tedious aspect of the game aside from grindiness. If they were going to go with quotes for every technology and wonder, they should have polished the hell out of Bean's script before proceeding with that feature, and I think it's perhaps the weakest aspect of VI's aesthetics.

Second, I think it is unfair to sweepingly claim that VI prioritized less of the aesthetics. They absolutely didn't. The leader designs are much better researched and reflective of their cultures. The unit and building assets have a lot more care put into cultural accuracy and diversity than V's had, plus now every civ was given at least one unique structure and unique unit to further make each civ feel culturally distinct. And, overall, a lot more effort had to be put in to destacking cities and making sure everything on the map was clearly legible at a glance. The leaders represent a marginal improvement in cultural aesthetic (see particularly Dido and Mansa Musa for comparison), but the devs and indisputably invested more into the map aesthetics. It's not less priority over aesthetic, but reallocating and focusing where their priorities were.

Third, in that same vein, poo-pooing the cartoony aesthetic is a tad narrow-minded. As a matter of design and marketing, it was virtually inevitable. Civ had two major things guiding its design: 1) How do they develop and release what would, at the outset and for most of its development cycle, be at least 2/3 "Civ V: Redux" to players who already had V? And 2) How do they expand their market, attract new casual players, and what are the general trends of the industry that players are latching onto? The answers:

1: Make VI extremely tonally and aesthetically different from V, and focus on different aspects of history. Where V was grand and focused on imperial prowess, VI would need to find a different niche. In this case, they settled on "celebratory" and focused on "cultural richness."

2: Going with aesthetic trends of the industry would certainly help. Grim-n-gritty V was popular in the oughts when CGI was new and we had the Matrix and LOTR and Nolan's Batman, but the entertainment industry slowly moved past that when they realized that hyperrealism doesn't have the widest appeal and doesn't age very well, while Nintendo and Blizzard managed to make a killing year after year with subpar graphics because they went with strong stylization and lighthearded gameplay that avoided controversy. The industry started shifting a bit before 2010, and we started seeing everyone move toward stylization, particularly "Disney-like" aesthetics. Team Fortress 2, Bioshock Infinite, Overwatch. If Civ VI was going to try to be populist and as tonally different from V as possible, this was the natural conclusion.

(3: in line with both of these points, choosing a more stylized design also makes it a lot easier to affordably and reliably add content long-term (and port to other platforms), and if nothing else prolificness and persistence are the best way to grow a fanbase if you can afford to keep it up.)

So I tend to take a different attitude toward the difference in aesthetic that one is good and the other is bad. They're just two different flavors of the same franchise, and as long as they are crafted with intent you can generally find just as much value in the things VI focuses on as the things V focused on.

Well, at least we agree on the quotes. I'm unsure what prompted the shift in Civ VI beyond the public statement of the art director that they wanted players to recognize things easily at a glance. I agree to some extent that Civ VI has more awareness of diversity and cultural accuracy--i.e. Rameses II speaking Arabic in Civ V. But Civ VI also has numerous gaps in accuracy and diversity anyway (we have four Greek/Macedonian/Hellene leaders, and African representation is still low. This is problematic. If there was more widespread, consistent African representation in Civ games, maybe we would avoid issues like your mention of Mansa Musa as an improvement in "cultural aesthetic" in Civ VI even though he wasn't even in Civ V for comparison purposes.)

To your main point, I firmly believe Civ V demonstrated more effort in its aesthetics and design and the art in Civ V stood out more. To illustrate why, let’s go one by one through some comparisons. (We’ve done wonder comparisons already—and several of us in this thread alone, myself included, expressed a preference for the historical flavor of Civ V’s wonder videos to the generic brick-by-brick building of Civ VI’s wonder videos.) I apologize in advance for the size of some of these images. I don't know how to resize them within a forum post:

Unit Icons:

Civ V pikeman icon (clear, repeated use of pikes, and nice forward motion)


Civ VI pikeman (nice haircut, that does stand out, even if it doesn't exactly focus attention on the pike itself)


Civ V machine gun bearing a recognizable machine gun


Civ VI machine gun; it's not immediately clear that it’s a machine gun and it looks more like the foreground soldier is bearing a bazooka.

Civ V’s icons show more effort and aren’t simple line-drawings, but feature more variation in color and shade. Moreover, it's clearer what the unit is--to take the example of the pikeman, the pike is easier to see and the forward thrust of the pikeman looks like he's in battle, whereas the Civ VI pikeman is arguably similar to any shield-bearing unit at first glance.

Leader Art and Animations:
Let’s look at a leader, Dido, in both Civ V and VI voiced by the same actress:

Civ V Dido

Note that this Civ VI video of Dido starts with the Civilopedia quote but includes all other lines and animations, note that Dido in Civ VI ahistorically references Epirus and Saguntum.

Dido in Civ V notably has more movement above her waist, and she shifts her position several times in real time in reaction to the player’s actions. Civ VI’s reacts in cutscenes, or with grunts in real-time for trade purposes, and has no movement above the waist. Dido in Civ V looks regal in her robe, and features fitting night-time lighting and a magnificent view of a Carthaginian cothon. Dido in Civ VI presides over a vision of rocks with muted colors, is dressed in a simple merchant or noblewoman’s robe, and bears black smudging around the background, lessening or removing entirely any immersive effect.

Leader Icons

Let’s look at Dido’s leader icons now in both Civ V and Civ VI:




It is obvious more effort went into the art for the Civ V leader icon for Dido. Civ VI’s features what is basically a screencap of her face from her animations.


Leader Relationships with other Leaders

Present and easy to see in Civ V, whereas in Civ VI you need to scroll through the rumors screen.

No such screen in Civ VI exists as far as I can tell. This is one of the areas where Civ V’s aesthetics win out for practical and functional reasons rather than purely subjective ones over art style.

Units and Terrain

To some extent, the saturated colorfulness of Civ VI and the more realistic look of Civ V are going to have different followers for subjective reasons. But as shown in comments on the video above, the Civ VI graphics are divisive, and a substantial number of commenters preferred Civ V's art, though some acknowledged preferring the Civ VI nuclear explosion animations.

But on other practical grounds, Marbozir for example has objected to Civ VI’s hill graphics as being unclear, and he has publicly stated he has difficulty distinguishing hills from flat land, which is why he uses the Civ V terrain graphics mod:

Policy Screens


Civ V policy screen, showing various subset trees of policies


Civ VI policy screen, showing a jumble of numerous policies in a pile on the right

Civ V’s policy screens stand out more aesthetically, whereas Civ VI’s looks like a copy of Bejeweled with more text on it. Notably the policy icons are all the same in Civ VI and some of the text is tougher to read.

You do know civ 5 is no better. sure it had less silly quotes but many of the quotes have little to do with the technological developments
"Acoustics
"Their rising all at once was as the sound of a thunder heard remote."
--Milton
what dose it have to with the development of acoustics?
Advanced Ballistics
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?"
--Tom Hehrer
so? what dose it have to do with ballistics?
Agriculture
"Where tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers therefore are the founders of human civilization."
--Daniel Webster

Animal Husbandry
"Thou salt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn."
--The Bible, Deuteronomy, 25:4
again a Bible verse that tells nothings about Herding the animal
Archaeology
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
--George Santayana

Archery
"The haft of the arrow had been feathered with one of the eagle's own plumes. We often give our enemies the means of our own destruction."
--Aesop
? yeah but what dose it got to do with Archery
Astronomy
"Joyfully to the breeze royal Odysseus spread his sail, and with his rudder skillfully he steered."
--Homer
that quote sounds more to do with sailing than Astronomy
Atomic Theory
"The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking, and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophes."
--Albert Einstein

Banking
"Happiness: a good bank account, a good cook and a good digestion."
--Jean Jacques Rousseau
yeah but what does it got to do with Development of banks?
Biology
"If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't."
--Lyall Watson
again no direct connection with Biology- the brain isn't only thing Biology studies
Bronze Working
"Here Hector entered, with a spear eleven cubits long in his hand; the bronze point gleamed in front of him, and was fastened to the shaft of the spear by a ring of gold."
--Homer
again no connection with development of bronze
Calendar
"So teach us to number our days, so that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom."
--The Bible, Psalms, 90:12
so? what does it got to do with Calander?
Chemistry
"Wherever we look, the work of the chemist has raised the level of our civilization and has increased the productive capacity of our nation."
--Calvin Coolidge
again this is just praising chemist not talking about the development of chemisty
Chivalry
"Who pulleth out this sword of this stone and anvil, is rightwise king born of all England"
--Malory
Again no mention about the development of Chalary
Civil Service
"The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency."
--Eugene McCarthy
no mention about how Civil service came to be
Combustion
"Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves."
--Albert Einstein
silly quote that rivals to ones in civ 6
Compass
"I find the great thing in this world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving."
--Oliver Wendell Holmes
again no mention of how compass came to be
Computers
"Computer are like Old Testament gods: lots of rules and no mercy."
--Joseph Campbell
no mention of how computers came to be
Construction
"Three things are to be looked to in a building: that it stand on the right spot; that it be securely founded; that it be successfully executed."
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
no mention about development of construction
Currency
"Better is bread with a happy heart/Than wealth with vexation."
--Amenemope
no mention about development of currency
Dynamite
"As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."
--Christopher Dawson
no mention about the development of Dynamite. Should have used quotes from Nobel himself
Economics
"Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe."
--Albert Einstein
interest isn't only thing economic has. No mention about development of economy
Ecology
"Only within the moment of time represented by the present century as one species, man, acquired significant power to alter the nature of his world."
--Rachel Carson
no mention about development of Ecology
Education
"Education is the best provision for old age."
--Aristotle
so? no mention about development of education
Electricity
"Is it a fact - or have I dreamt it - that, by means of electricity, the world of matter has become a great nerve, vibrating thousands of miles in a breathless point of time?"
--Nathaniel Hawthorne
no mention about the development of electricity

bit too lazy to do the rest but you get the idea.

I don't see better from the POV that V will have their clanger quotes too; even if they're rarer inpart due to less quotes being used. Both games have brilliant quotes. VI has a few obvious awful ones; but it's not as big a difference between the two as you make out. I could go through the list from VI fully and pull out many more great quotes than I already have.

Also, I don't agree with all of @Kupe Navigator 's critiques of the quotes from V; but he is using a similar methodology to @Morningcalm .

To address just one of the Civ V quotes Kupe Navigator cited as problematic (I don't see any of them as being bad), the Calendar quote has everything to do with the calendar because it specifically mentions "numbering days", which is what a calendar is all about.

To address his post on larger grounds, what Kupe Navigator has ignored are all of my other objections to Civ VI quotes beyond merely quotes not being relevant to the development of the technology—namely, that Civ VI quotes were inaccurate in several cases, propagating false stories or incorrectly attributed quotes, or, more often, were overly cynical and negative, criticizing the very tech or civic one just researched (and I’ve repeated this specific point several times, which Kupe Navigator in his most recent post simply ignored). Civ V's quotes, as cited by Kupe Navigator, often elevate the tech researched, pointing out its importance and that which is inspiring about it (my favorite Civ V quote is for Electricity, delivered well, and an inspiring quote indeed).

Similar objections have been raised in this Reddit thread, as I previously pointed out: https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/85d0xr/what_is_up_with_the_sarcasticantiprogress_quotes/

But here are some other Reddit threads collating numerous criticisms of the Civ VI quotes:
https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/dy8fle/the_quotes_in_civ_6_are_garbage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/e2f7zu/i_just_noticed_that_one_of_the_civ_6_quotes_in/
https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/556v6l/civ_6_big_nitpick_but_i_really_dislike_most_of/
https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/58vdh8/does_anyone_else_dislike_the_funny_quotes/

I don't know why people (well, at least, in this thread) are so obsessed with tech/civic/wonder quotes, when there are many other meaningful and impactful differences between civ5 and civ6.

I just understand them as a flavor thing, and don't mind if they are serious/accurate or not.

On a side note, as far as I know, the Chinese civ community - which (some of you might know) are usually deeply obsessed with efficiency and sub-t200 wins, definitely "serious" players - nicknamed the wonder Mount Kilimanjaro as "Mount Wifi". This is because the full name is too mouthful, and they thought that quote is quite amusing and memorable, so they happily accepted it.

Historical flavor is going to necessarily matter more to some gamers than others. But it's not just about accuracy or seriousness, it's about whether we have quotes that criticize the very tech you just researched or not. Civ VI has way more of these than Civ V. I don't think the Chinese Civ community seeing Mt Kilimanjaro as "Mount Wifi" is a win for cultural literacy or respect for a sacred mountain. It's disrespectful to ask for wifi access on such awe-inspiring natural wonders anyway.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I just want to state two small points here since I don't want to be drag into a long thesis about which art style is subjectively better in general:

Leader Art and Animations:
Let’s look at a leader, Dido, in both Civ V and VI voiced by the same actress:

Historically speaking a Phonetician would never look like a generic white woman, so many among the historic nerds prefer the civ6 Dido.

Edit: Speaking of leader portrayals in V here is my two cents: I have no objection to V's leader designs in general, and I am not very into arguments about ethnic portrayals, but I find the design of V's Wu Zetian very Orientalism, esp. the makeup and eyes.
I don't feel really uncomfortable with the orientalism designs (I understand if Chinese figures are hard to portray), but I do feel very weird. There are also at least two transmitted sculptures that possibly based on Wu's appearance so it's not like we don't know how did she look like.

Policy Screens

I agree with the "a jumble of numerous policies in a pile" complain, myself have a hard time finding policy cards when playing. However, I would say this is a game mechanic problem rather than a graphic design one, because in civ5 you have separated civic trees which are meant to be, eh, separated. The policy trees are simply not able to become a pile of things from the very beginning.

 

[Morningcalm]

I just want to state two small points here since I don't want to be drag into a long thesis about which art style is subjectively better in general:

Historically speaking a Phonetician would never look like a generic white woman, so many among the historic nerds prefer the civ6 Dido.

I agree with the "a jumble of numerous policies in a pile" complain, myself have a hard time finding policy cards when playing. However, I would say this is a game mechanic problem rather than a graphic design one, because in civ5 you have separated civic trees which are meant to be, eh, separated. The policy tree cannot become a pile of things from the very beginning.

I don't see her as looking "white" in Civ V. She came from the Near East, and I know several light-skinned people from there, though that is of course based on a small contemporary subset of data, i.e. my friends (that said, I agree it would be more realistic if she was darker skinned). Do the historic nerds prefer the Civ 6 Dido on other aesthetic grounds, like the background? This historic nerd (me) does not. The black smudging and muted colors are just weird and do not spell out "Carthage" for me as much as "this is a work in progress". Maybe Firaxis artists smudged the backgrounds to focus more attention on the leader, but instead such backgrounds draw unwanted attention to how little effort was put into the backgrounds for Civ VI. I would have objected less often to the backgrounds had they shown the full painting and didn't mute the colors or border it with dark smudging.

As to the policies, I think if they put more effort into organizing and visually differentiating the Civ VI policies I would complain less about them. I like what they did with the Great People in Civ VI, for example--relatively clear, nicely illustrated icons. (Their Great Works slots are objectionable as being hard to scroll through horizontally, in comparison to Civ V's vertical arrangement).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't see her as looking "white" in Civ V. She came from the Near East, and I know several light-skinned people from there, though that is of course based on a small contemporary subset of data, i.e. my friends (that said, I agree it would be more realistic if she was darker skinned). Do the historic nerds prefer the Civ 6 Dido on other aesthetic grounds, like the background? This historic nerd (me) does not. The black smudging and muted colors are just weird and do not spell out "Carthage" for me as much as "this is a work in progress". Maybe Firaxis artists smudged the backgrounds to focus more attention on the leader, but instead such backgrounds draw unwanted attention to how little effort was put into the backgrounds for Civ VI. I would have objected less often to the backgrounds had they shown the full painting and didn't mute the colors or border it with dark smudging.

She's definitely looks white/European to me.

I've already said that for the most part I prefer the leader backgrounds in Civ 5 but that doesn't necessarily change my mind on the art style as a whole as I prefer 6 to 5.

Most of the art design designs, including the icons, I could care less about and the main thing to me is the map and how it's easier to see what is on each tile in Civ 6 as opposed to Civ 5, with maybe the hills being the only exception.

 

[Morningcalm]

She's definitely looks white/European to me.

I've already said that for the most part I prefer the leader backgrounds in Civ 5 but that doesn't necessarily change my mind on the art style as a whole as I prefer 6 to 5.

Most of the art design designs, including the icons, I could care less about and the main thing to me is the map and how it's easier to see what is on each tile in Civ 6 as opposed to Civ 5, with maybe the hills being the only exception.

Well, at least we agree on the backgrounds.

Aside from the unit icons, the tech tree is also clearer in Civ V than Civ VI:




The Civ V tech tree clearly uses color coding (gold, green, blue) to indicate which techs were researched, which available, and so on. With Civ VI's tech tree it's far harder to tell due to the common use of brown for many of those purposes.

So my point is that subjective preference for aesthetics aside, Civ V graphics are overall more distinctive, clearer, easier to recognize at a distance.

Hi guys !

I really love Civ 6. The only thing i would rather have from Civ 5 is the Music. I liked Civ 5 Music way better.
What do you guys think ?

Cheers !

I'm glad you love Civ 6! For me it was a disappointment, though I liked certain aspects for it (forward-thinking, interesting leader choices). And it did certain things I strongly objected to (inclusion of Canada and Australia over other older civilizations with longer-lasting impact, and the overall proliferation of European civs, which is thankfully being cut back on with the New Frontier Pass' inclusion of Maya, for example).

I liked Civ 5's music system better too--the war and peace division added some dynamicism and weight to each war declaration. In Civ VI the musical themes throughout eras often sound too similar as well, and in Ethiopia's case, they removed the lovely vocals for the Industrial and Modern Era versions for some reason (thankfully for the Zulu they kept the vocals). There are some standouts in Civ 6, like Japan's theme, Indonesia's theme, and so on, but I overall prefer the music system of Civ 5. I hope that Civ VII will include Civ VI's culturally appropriate ambient music, but also war and peace music, with less recycling of music from other leaders' civs (in a game recently I heard all my opponents' themes way more often than mine, and only heard my civ's theme upon entering a new era).

 

[nzcamel]

Well, there isn't really any objective way to say which quotes are good and which are bad, so I suppose this is mostly down to personal opinion. In my opinion though, if that list was meant to show that Civ 5 had bad quotes in a similar way to 6, I just don't see it.

I would also say that I don't recall people really complaining about the quotes in in Civ 5 before, but it definitely has been an issue in Civ 6. Of course, that doesn't make your personal opinion of the quotes "wrong", but I do think it is fair to say more people find Civ 6's quotes objectionable than do Civ 5's.

Again... Civ 6 absolutely has a few almost universally derided clangers of quotes* that have got far too much attention, which in turn has lead to claims that many of the quotes are bad. This is simply not true, as you saw when I highlighted a few, made up of my favourite and the first three I came across in the ancient/classical tech tree that I thought were outstanding. I didn't dig far. Lets please stop going in circles on this.

*Air conditioning in Rome/Wifi at Mt Kilimanjaro.

 

[JesseS]

I agree with the "a jumble of numerous policies in a pile" complain, myself have a hard time finding policy cards when playing. However, I would say this is a game mechanic problem rather than a graphic design one, because in civ5 you have separated civic trees which are meant to be, eh, separated. The policy trees are simply not able to become a pile of things from the very beginning.

I like the Alternate Policy Screen mod, which shows the (direct) effect of each policy at a glance. It doesn't calculate the 2nd order effects of policies (e.g. more amenities will cause some sort of increase in yields, but it won't tell you how much; it doesn't tell you how much production per turn the modifier based ones would currently provide) but is a huge advance over the default jumbled cards.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

All I see here is a bunch of cherry-picking and compartmentalization with an almost blind preference toward grandeur and hyperrealism, both of which are merely art preferences. Not to mention a heavy bias toward criticizing UI design while generally ignoring 3D art assets.

Civ V pikeman icon (clear, repeated use of pikes, and nice forward motion)
Civ VI pikeman (nice haircut, that does stand out, even if it doesn't exactly focus attention on the pike itself)
Civ V machine gun bearing a recognizable machine gun
Civ VI machine gun; it's not immediately clear that it’s a machine gun and it looks more like the foreground soldier is bearing a bazooka.

The devs were clearly going for a more culturally generic style, so we aren't going to have very Euro-centric pikes or helmets. The icons are admittedly a bit unclear, but I don't see "motion" as being quite necessary for communicating functionality, and the unit assets are drastically more identifiable in VI than they were in V.

Civ V’s icons show more effort and aren’t simple line-drawings, but feature more variation in color and shade. Moreover, it's clearer what the unit is--to take the example of the pikeman, the pike is easier to see and the forward thrust of the pikeman looks like he's in battle, whereas the Civ VI pikeman is arguably similar to any shield-bearing unit at first glance.

Having a large amount of detail in small icons is also poor design, makes things busy and illegible. So having more variation in color and shade in an icon doesn't necessarily mean it is better. VI overall seemed to take an approach of trying to simplify and streamline art design, again for purposes of accessibility and longevity, and so at least some part of the change was functional. I also suspect they used the unit asset in the icon art so players would form a stronger mental connection between the interface and the unit, which again is attempting to reconcile art design with functionality.

Dido in Civ V notably has more movement above her waist, and she shifts her position several times in real time in reaction to the player’s actions. Civ VI’s reacts in cutscenes, or with grunts in real-time for trade purposes, and has no movement above the waist. Dido in Civ V looks regal in her robe, and features fitting night-time lighting and a magnificent view of a Carthaginian cothon. Dido in Civ VI presides over a vision of rocks with muted colors, is dressed in a simple merchant or noblewoman’s robe, and bears black smudging around the background, lessening or removing entirely any immersive effect.

It is obvious more effort went into the art for the Civ V leader icon for Dido. Civ VI’s features what is basically a screencap of her face from her animations.

This is where I think your biases start to show. VI Dido's background is not muted at all. It actually involves quite beautiful use of color and light, as do many of the other leader backgrounds in VI. V never had any backgrounds which deliberately tried to communicate and atmosphere and palette from sunlight or moonlight; V Dido might have been one of the civs that came the closest but it's nowhere near VI's level. I vastly prefer VI's backgrounds as communicating a certain mood and home terrain as opposed to V's which were all over the place.

Also, same thing as above about the leader icon using the leader asset to overall have simpler design and overall more coherency between the UI and the assets. I personally dislike Dido's virginal appearance against a sultry nighttime harbor in V, and I particularly hate her icon design which is far too busy and romanticized (I'm sorry @Lord Lakely, that is no comment on you as a person, and Phoenicia happens to be my favorite civ in VI so we're not wholly incompatible).

No such screen in Civ VI exists as far as I can tell. This is one of the areas where Civ V’s aesthetics win out for practical and functional reasons rather than purely subjective ones over art style.

Another complaint over UI and not aesthetics.

To some extent, the saturated colorfulness of Civ VI and the more realistic look of Civ V are going to have different followers for subjective reasons. But as shown in comments on the video above, the Civ VI graphics are divisive, and a substantial number of commenters preferred Civ V's art, though some acknowledged preferring the Civ VI nuclear explosion animations.

But on other practical grounds, Marbozir for example has objected to Civ VI’s hill graphics as being unclear, and he has publicly stated he has difficulty distinguishing hills from flat land, which is why he uses the Civ V terrain graphics mod:

Personally I think hills are reasonably easy to spot on VI's map. And that's really the biggest complaint people have other than the overlay map being brown and muddy. If those are the worst things people can find about VI's map, then it's actually very well-designed. Certainly many of the other terrain features are a lot easier to distinguish than they were in V.

Civ V policy screen, showing various subset trees of policies
Civ VI policy screen, showing a jumble of numerous policies in a pile on the right

Civ V’s policy screens stand out more aesthetically, whereas Civ VI’s looks like a copy of Bejeweled with more text on it. Notably the policy icons are all the same in Civ VI and some of the text is tougher to read.

Civ VI's policy screen actually stands out to me as more aesthetic and functional, being simpler and easier to read on the left side and not requiring a bunch of navigation through policy trees and submenus. The card design and placement is cluttered, I agree, but overall it took many of the mechanics and UI elements in a better, clearer direction.

However, again, you are attempting to equate UI graphic design with aesthetic, and I think this point is fairly irrelevant to whether or not VI's art style is good or not.

Again... Civ 6 absolutely has a few almost universally derided clangers of quotes* that have got far too much attention, which in turn has lead to claims that many of the quotes are bad. This is simply not true, as you saw when I highlighted a few, made up of my favourite and the first three I came across in the ancient/classical tech tree that I thought were outstanding. I didn't dig far. Lets please stop going in circles on this.

*Air conditioning in Rome/Wifi at Mt Kilimanjaro.

For the record, I think most quotes--regardless of how good they are--are irritating if heard too often. And these appear every time you hit each milestone. It's not really whether the quotes are bad (although I would argue there are very few which are genuinely great), but that they are some irrelevant attention-seeking detail that players are forced to endure in generally the same manner every game. I don't need to be hearing quotes every few turns; the devs should not have tied quotes to so many events and kept them for truly special occasions.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I like the Alternate Policy Screen mod, which shows the (direct) effect of each policy at a glance. It doesn't calculate the 2nd order effects of policies (e.g. more amenities will cause some sort of increase in yields, but it won't tell you how much; it doesn't tell you how much production per turn the modifier based ones would currently provide) but is a huge advance over the default jumbled cards.

I like the idea of everything is at a glance. However, although I complaint about the hardship of navigating in a pile of jumbled cards, I do love the feeling of shuffling around some cards more than shuffling some labels. If FXS separated the single card pile into different spaces to hold the cards based on the categories, I will be fine with it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm glad you love Civ 6! For me it was a disappointment, though I liked certain aspects for it (forward-thinking, interesting leader choices). And it did certain things I strongly objected to (inclusion of Canada and Australia over other older civilizations with longer-lasting impact, and the overall proliferation of European civs, which is thankfully being cut back on with the New Frontier Pass' inclusion of Maya, for example).

It's hard to say whether for sure that they won't include any older non-European nations when we aren't done yet. After GS a lot of people thought that Maya and Ethiopia weren't happening, but now look.

Honestly I'm perfectly fine with the fact we had to wait for the Inca and Ottomans considering they wouldn't have been as well designed as they are now if they were included in the base game.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

It's hard to say whether for sure that they won't include any older non-European nations when we aren't done yet. After GS a lot of people thought that Maya and Ethiopia weren't happening, but now look.

Honestly I'm perfectly fine with the fact we had to wait for the Inca and Ottomans considering they wouldn't have been as well designed as they are now if they were included in the base game.

Yeah I've been quite happy with the direction the devs took with design this time around. They included very archetypal civs in the base game to demonstrate basic mechanics, and half of which would be most likely to gain depth with alternate leaders. And then they progressively added civs based on how much complexity their particular niche in history begged for (first smaller, concentrated cultural patches, then civs known for pioneering difficult terrain). I was actually hoping a third expack would tackle corporations and migration, so we could have a set of civs that emphasized "melting pots" in history: Timurids, Assyria, Morocco, Bulgaria, Oman, the Goths, Byzantium, Gran Colombia. But looks like that never happened and instead we are working with vanilla mechanics for now.