CIV6 Civs and Leaders

[GenyaArikado]

I'd like it this way, for tsl sake. The ones who have a "/" could be either one while the others can be added as dlc or later

America
Aztecs
Gran Colombia/Argentina
Inca
Brazil
Spain/France/Germany
England
Rome/Greece
Russia
Egypt
Persia/Assyria/Babylonia
Carthage
Arabia
Zulu/Kongo
Japan
Mongolia
China
India
Something from Oceania

 

[Westwall]

Mongols and Huns have the same archetype in popular culture, so they generally fit the same gameplay niche. They are nomad horsemen conquerors and destroyers of settled civs. With limited number of civs having both is unlikely. So, I'd expect Mongols early and Huns as possible option for expansion.

Pop culture notwithstanding, the Mongols were far more than nomadic horseman conquerors and "destroyers of settled civs" since they became a settled people themselves and by Kublai's era attracted hosts of academics and traders while incorporating foreign cultures and religions into their own.

I see no reason that side of their society shouldn't be brought more into the mainstream.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Pop culture notwithstanding, the Mongols were far more than nomadic horseman conquerors and "destroyers of settled civs" since they became a settled people themselves and by Kublai's era attracted hosts of academics and traders while incorporating foreign cultures and religions into their own.

I see no reason that side of their society shouldn't be brought more into the mainstream.

When they were nomads, they were unique. Once they settled, they become more or less standard empire. Egypt isn't building pyramids for almost 4 thousands years, but it's still portrayed pyramid builders.

 

[Plus Ultra]

If for whatever reason (TSL, Eurocentric Anti-Eurocentrism, DLC strategy, insert your reason here) only 5 European Civs can be in the vanilla game, Spain is arguably a tight fit, I'll give you that.

If the choice is based on historical relevance, cultural uniqueness, iconic leaders or gameplay possibilities, there is no way Spain is not worthy of being part of a list of 18 Civs.

And, in order to avoid derailing this thread, "That's all I have to say about that".

 

[Thormodr]

When they were nomads, they were unique. Once they settled, they become more or less standard empire. Egypt isn't building pyramids for almost 4 thousands years, but it's still portrayed pyramid builders.

Having the largest contagious empire in human history, they were anything but a standard empire. If anything, they set the standard.

I do hope that they'll have the wherewithal to have multiple leaders for each Civ so they can show the different sides of certain Civs. As you said, Egypt weren't pyramid builders for their entire history. The Mongols likewise had different sides to them that could be brought out.

 

[Westwall]

When they were nomads, they were unique. Once they settled, they become more or less standard empire. Egypt isn't building pyramids for almost 4 thousands years, but it's still portrayed pyramid builders.

How exactly did settling make them "standard" or less unique? They still employed the best military tactics of their era and oversaw a vast multicultural empire the likes of which Alexander of Macedon only ever dreamed about.

There was nothing "standard" about them. And by your definition, what makes Germany stand out more than Spain? And what makes Spain stand out more than Portugal? What makes Greece and Rome stand out enough from one another to both be included?

 

[stealth_nsk]

How exactly did settling make them "standard" or less unique? They still employed the best military tactics of their era and oversaw a vast multicultural empire the likes of which Alexander of Macedon only ever dreamed about.

There was nothing "standard" about them. And by your definition, what makes Germany stand out more than Spain? And what makes Spain stand out more than Portugal? What makes Greece and Rome stand out enough from one another to both be included?

Let me put it that way. Genghis have 3.5 times more visits in Wikipedia than Kublai.

 

[killmeplease]

How exactly did settling make them "standard" or less unique? They still employed the best military tactics of their era and oversaw a vast multicultural empire the likes of which Alexander of Macedon only ever dreamed about.

There was nothing "standard" about them. And by your definition, what makes Germany stand out more than Spain? And what makes Spain stand out more than Portugal? What makes Greece and Rome stand out enough from one another to both be included?

mongol empire was short living and had a little cultural impact - they were assimilated.
and cultural impact of Germany is also much much larger than that of Spain.
btw the game is called Civilization not Subjugation.
plague rats had also made a great devastation dont you think its unfair they're not in civ?

 

[SMcM]

mongol empire was short living and had a little cultural impact - they were assimilated.
and cultural impact of Germany is also much much larger than that of Spain.
btw the game is called Civilization not Subjugation.
plague rats had also made a great devastation dont you think its unfair they're not in civ?

Most of the South America speaks Spanish. Germany is no where near Spain in terms of cultural impact.

 

[nunor]

Most of the South America speaks Spanish. Germany is no where near Spain in terms of cultural impact.

Bach, Handel, Pachelbel, Beethoven, Brahms, Strauss, Mendelssohn, Wagner, Schumann, Liszt, Stockhausen, Kurt Weill, Hegel, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Marx, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Engels, Gadamer, Adorno, Leibniz, Kant, Grimm, Goethe, Hesse, Dürer, Friedrich, Holbein, and Klee (of Ulm)
would like to have a word with you.

 

[killmeplease]

Most of the South America speaks Spanish. Germany is no where near Spain in terms of cultural impact.

spoken language is like hair style or traditional food, its a cultural feature not an achievement. spain was nowhere near germany in regard of science, art, philosophy, literature, economy, social advancement etc.
they were just lucky to find the potosi mountain and dug a crapload of silver to wage wars for some time before their economy was completely ruined.

 

[Westwall]

Let me put it that way. Genghis have 3.5 times more visits in Wikipedia than Kublai.

Julius Caesar has more visits than Augustus Caesar, yet the Roman empire was at its peak under Augustus, who most would agree was the more effective ruler.

Julius himself actually enjoyed a rather short reign before being assassinated.

mongol empire was short living and had a little cultural impact - they were assimilated.
and cultural impact of Germany is also much much larger than that of Spain.
btw the game is called Civilization not Subjugation.
plague rats had also made a great devastation dont you think its unfair they're not in civ?

This is grossly wrong to the point of fiction. The Mongol rule of Tibet, Manchuria, and the Mongolian steppe from a capital at modern Beijing were the precedents for the Qing dynasty's Inner Asian Empire. Their tactics are still studied today in military academies around the world and inspired successful battlefield commanders throughout history even as recently as the First Persian Gulf War.

Comparing Mongols to plague rats is also just plain racist and does a monumental disservice to history as a whole. In fact, if we went by your definition, Germany's greatest and most notorious influence on history was the destruction they wrought on millions from 1939 to 1945. Does that make them "plague rats" in your eyes?

Edit: And by the way, if the name of the game is "Civilization" and not "Subjugation" as you say, and you really took that to the most literal meaning, Alexander of Macedon should be banned from the series.

 

[Plus Ultra]

Bach, Handel, Pachelbel, Beethoven, Brahms, Strauss, Mendelssohn, Wagner, Schumann, Liszt, Stockhausen, Kurt Weill, Hegel, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Marx, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Engels, Gadamer, Adorno, Leibniz, Kant, Grimm, Goethe, Hesse, Dürer, Friedrich, Holbein, and Klee (of Ulm)
would like to have a word with you.

Agreed, the importance of Germany in the history of the world cannot be understated.

Of course, a similar list could be created for Spain, from the top of my mind... Picasso, Velazquez, Goya, Dalí, Cervantes, St. Tomas Aquino, Unamuno, Murillo, Calatrava, Pizarro... there is no need to continue.

Comparing two of the most important civilizations in the history of the world is a fruitless task which never ends well. As a Spaniard, I respect and recognize the undeniable achievements and historical relevancy of Germany and its people.

 

[Westwall]

Comparing two of the most important civilizations in the history of the world is a fruitless task which never ends well. As a Spaniard, I respect and recognize the undeniable achievements and historical relevancy of Germany and its people.

I'm certainly not going to argue that one was more influential than the other.

But some seem to be trying to downplay the accomplishments and influence of Spain and the Spanish Empire, which also cannot be understated.

 

[lorrydriverjr]

Four never before seen civs with a focus on TSL and big personalities?

Paul Kruger, the time is now

 

[killmeplease]

This is grossly wrong to the point of fiction. The Mongol rule of Tibet, Manchuria, and the Mongolian steppe from a capital at modern Beijing were the precedents for the Qing dynasty's Inner Asian Empire. Their tactics are still studied today in military academies around the world and inspired successful battlefield commanders throughout history even as recently as the First Persian Gulf War.

i admit their military success and advancements in social organization to some extent (e.g. some russian institutions like postal and tax services were based on mongol's). in this regard they're more civilized than huns and onther barbs, but less than some other nomads e.g. aryans who had their own culture and even created a world religion.

Comparing Mongols to plague rats is also just plain racist and does a monumental disservice to history as a whole. In fact, if we went by your definition, Germany's greatest and most notorious influence on history was the destruction they wrought on millions from 1939 to 1945. Does that make them "plague rats" in your eyes?

comparing anything with anything is not racist, i have just reduced your argument to absurd. if civs' impact was weighted by your scale, we'd get
1. rats
2. mongols
3. nazis - still greater than spain lol (as you reject anything beside territory control and mass murder)

 

[Plus Ultra]

spoken language is like hair style or traditional food, its a cultural feature not an achievement. spain was nowhere near germany in regard of science, art, philosophy, literature, economy, social advancement etc.
they were just lucky to find the potosi mountain and dug a crapload of silver to wage wars for some time before their economy was completely ruined.

With all due respect, I would appreciate if you could avoid this sort of uninformed and incorrect claims, they achieve nothing besides letting your ignorance shine.

There is plenty of information about the spanish empire, language and culture available on the internet, and I would honestly recommend you to search for it if you want to add something valuable to any discussion regarding Spain.

 

[Westwall]

i admit their military success and advancements in social organization to some extent (e.g. some russian institutions like postal and tax services were based on mongol's). in this regard they're more civilized than huns and onther barbs, but less than some other nomads e.g. aryans who had their own culture and even created a world religion.


comparing anything with anything is not racist, i have just reduced your argument to absurd. if civs' impact was weighted by your scale, we'd get
1. rats
2. mongols
3. nazis - still greater than spain lol (as you reject anything beside territory control and mass murder)

Sounds like you're just trolling at this point. Also using "Aryan" to describe Europe and European peoples? Seriously?

And if you really think subjugation and civilization are mutually exclusive and one forbids the other from being relevant, you're basically saying Western civilization should be stricken from the game because of its history of colonial conquest and oppression.

Sorry, but your arguments literally aren't adding up and you're contradicting yourself quite a bit.

Oh and you still haven't said why Germans are more "civilized" than Mongols. Are you saying Germans didn't commit enough genocide to qualify as "uncivilized"?

 

[Plus Ultra]

i admit their military success and advancements in social organization to some extent (e.g. some russian institutions like postal and tax services were based on mongol's). in this regard they're more civilized than huns and onther barbs, but less than some other nomads e.g. aryans who had their own culture and even created a world religion.


comparing anything with anything is not racist, i have just reduced your argument to absurd. if civs' impact was weighted by your scale, we'd get
1. rats
2. mongols
3. nazis - still greater than spain lol (as you reject anything beside territory control and mass murder)

That's the most pretentious, uninformed nonsense I've ever read. Please, stop, you are making a fool of yourself.

 

[StrideColossus]

...
nazis
...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law