[NFP] Civ6 Maya implementation question/discussion

[ehecatzin]

As others have pointed out, the Maya deforestating everything to make space for intense agriculture and city planning makes perfect sense historically, and yes, It's refreshing at moves away from this idea that the Mayans were somehow "in tune" with nature.

I agree in that it would have been nice for them to have a small faith bonus related to building It's infraestructure, and maybe having their "effective radius" for cities not diminish so drastically. For me it would be interesting if conquered CS still retained the Mayan city bonuses regardless of distance, that way you could always conquer that pesky CS just outside your city bonus, or even have decent expansion options if you are coastal.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

The Maya are one of my favorite civ designs in the game: it's historically flavorful given the massive deforestation undertaken by the Maya, it encourages a unique playstyle, and it's just genuinely fun. I wish there were more civs like Maya that were rich in historical flavor and unique to play. (As opposed to, say, civs like Korea that are kind of lacking in both.)

I LOVE what they do. I just wish they would do it a tiny margin better.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think the Maya's design is perfectly acceptable and well-representative of their history, other than that they have no real bonuses to faith, like they did in Civ V. Like others have pointed out, they ran major deforestation programs and were pretty urban, making them rather advanced for the standards of their neighbors. But if the Aztecs get some bonuses towards faith (as super minor as they are), the Maya also certainly should.

I agree in that it would have been nice for them to have a small faith bonus related to building It's infraestructure, and maybe having their "effective radius" for cities not diminish so drastically. For me it would be interesting if conquered CS still retained the Mayan city bonuses regardless of distance, that way you could always conquer that pesky CS just outside your city bonus, or even have decent expansion options if you are coastal.

They could let the observatory grant a great prophet point per turn at least since their astronomy was more based on astrology.

 

[ehecatzin]

They could let the observatory grant a great prophet point per turn at least since their astronomy was more based on astrology.

Yeah or in the same idea, having the obvservatory adjacency grant the GP points, to tie it to the adjacency game Maya got going. It would kind of feel like the theocracy amassing more power with the serfs working the fields.

 

[Francel]

Would Maya critcs/skeptics be satisfied if new cities started with a builder, and bronze working allowed for clearing of jungle?

 

[JesseS]

Would Maya critcs/skeptics be satisfied if new cities started with a builder, and bronze working allowed for clearing of jungle?

A builder with new cities would make them overpowered (would it mean you get 2 with ancestral hall?) and bronze working already allows for clearing jungle. I think a better approach would be tweaking the yield bonus/penalty to +15%/-10% or expanding its applicable range from 6 tiles to 9 or 10. Then add some bonus housing in addition to the amenities for settling next to a luxury.

 

[Francel]

Oopsie meant mining - got my civs crossed!

 

[Sostratus]

Things I like:
It’s a unique take on a “tall Civ”
Interesting campus mechanics
You get gold from farms!

things I dislike:
The current basic campus is overloaded with adjacency, so the observatory often needs a lot of investment to get up to where natural campus spots can. Plantations aren’t THAT common.
The Malus outside of 6 tiles. Given how their Civ abilities are set up, I find +10% within 6 tiles but -15% outside of it to be psychologically poor design- it’s a huge turn off for me and numerically dubious as an advantage on anything outside of the smallest maps.
The fresh water vs farm housing thing- same story; the number of farms needed to make up for fresh water other civs have is significant. I don’t mind that this exists as much though.

I think dropping the -15% would make the Civ much more appealing and not really change much overall. If this is a hill to die on, make it +10% within 6 tiles of the palace OR govt plaza (or Diplo Quarter?)
I also think the observatory could use an additional source of adjacency. Even +1 from rainforest would work, as a counterbalance before you get the farm operation going.

 

[Tech Osen]

Plantations aren’t THAT common.

This. I find it annoying how a unique district is actually worse than the standard version. To get it to 3 adjacency without a plantation you need to surround it with farms which is often impossible, especially pre hill farms.
So for a civ that looks like it's meant to go tall you often can't take full advantage of Rationalism.
Giving the Observatory a +1 (or maybe even +2) for being adjacent to a farm on a bonus resource might be a good solution.

 

[Francel]

We need a “tall” civ. If Mayans are weak, instead of getting rid of the distance penalty, double down on it and make the center stronger.

Of course, it doesn’t have to be Mayans, but I do think it’s a playstyle deserving of more love.

 

[Kwami]

The fresh water vs farm housing thing- same story; the number of farms needed to make up for fresh water other civs have is significant. I don’t mind that this exists as much though.

Two. A Mayan city needs 2 farms to reach 5 housing, which is equal to a regular, fresh-water city. That's not really "significant". And on the third farm, the Mayan city has 1 more housing than others. It's really not that bad. Ultimately, it's usually a bonus since you'll have at least 3 farms in most cities.

 

[lotrmith]

Two. A Mayan city needs 2 farms to reach 5 housing, which is equal to a regular, fresh-water city. That's not really "significant". And on the third farm, the Mayan city has 1 more housing than others. It's really not that bad. Ultimately, it's usually a bonus since you'll have at least 3 farms in most cities.

2/3 of a builder (pre-Liang/Feudalism) is pretty significant especially since you're not using those charges to improve luxuries, strategics, build mines, or do chopping.

 

[Kwami]

2/3 of a builder (pre-Liang/Feudalism) is pretty significant especially since you're not using those charges to improve luxuries, strategics, build mines, or do chopping.

On the other hand, you're getting campuses for half the production, you're probably producing fewer settles, and your cities are all getting +10% production right away. And it's not as if Mayan cities can't also build granaries and aqueducts and all of the other things that increase housing, too.

Actually, two more things. If you do build the farms, then you'll probably be getting more gold than others, which means that you can start buying builders or granaries in new cities. Especially if you get a monumentality golden age, which is somewhat easier to do with a unique campus and a unique archer.

Also, since you don't have to worry about settling on rivers, you can instead prioritize first-ring tiles even more than you normally would, which probably gives your cities more productions that the cities of other players.

Really, two farms isn't that significant. And if you're playing with Secret Societies mode turned on, then you can almost always spare a title for Liang. Then, it's one builder for every two cities. Not a huge investment, really.

 

[Aurelesk]

The Observatory is not bad, it is just that the Campus is way too good. Imagine they change the adjacency bonuses from Campus for how likely it is going to face a Natural Disaster:

• Major adjacency (+2): Volcano, one eruption and you have to rebuild.
• Standard adjacency (+1): Reef, as you don't know if you are in Hurricane area.
• Minor adjacency (+0.5): Tropical forest, as they can suffer from Wildfire.
• Nothing (+0): Moutain (→ Holy Site has already it), Geothermal Fissure (except if they have some downside).

Now, the Observatory will feel better if they exchanged Volcanoes to Plantations, and Tropical Forests to Farms (I guess the Reef's adjacency should be added?). Those Observatories are going to have as much yield as other Campus (if not better) while not facing the threat of volcanic eruption and hurricanes.

The Mayan are weird. Their cities around the Capital have better yield so you would want those cities to be populous to maximise that, except you want them as dense as possible to fit the maximum amount of cities. If your cities are densely packed, they are going to fall short on tiles as most of them are going to have some districts, so less Farms,and those Farms are extremely important.

They have +10% yield in the Capital but no Housing. It is a shame that the Mayan relies so much on an early Builder in Tribal Village to go from harsh begining to good one. Even if you put 2 early Farms, you just have +3 Housing, so as much that a regular civilization that start on fresh water.

 

[Revanchist]

The problem with nerfing mountains and campuses is that they are already detrimental terrain and not that many civs are able to work them. Furthermore, you cannot build farms on the hilly terrain next to mountain for quite some time. If campuses are going to be nerfed, then there needs to be some other way to work with mountains.

 

[Kwami]

The problem with nerfing mountains and campuses is that they are already detrimental terrain and not that many civs are able to work them. Furthermore, you cannot build farms on the hilly terrain next to mountain for quite some time. If campuses are going to be nerfed, then there needs to be some other way to work with mountains.

Why? What's wrong with having some dead tiles? They're no different than desert and snow tiles. Actually, they're a bit better, because they still provide adjacency bonuses to holy sites, appeal to surrounding tiles, and defense against invaders.

 

[Revanchist]

Faith is still not that strong of a currency unless you meet specific circumstances, and tourism comes much later in the game. If you get a mountainous start, you are essentially screwed even further since you A) Do not get science yields allowing you to keep up with competition more easily and B) Already have unworkable tiles that make your game much more slower to navigate around, since mountains are almost always surrounded by hilly terrain. Desert and Tundra already were extremely detrimental, further extending this to mountains makes the game even more of a slog and will be a cause for more rerolls, which this game did not need in the slightest

 

[lotrmith]

Why? What's wrong with having some dead tiles? They're no different than desert and snow tiles. Actually, they're a bit better, because they still provide adjacency bonuses to holy sites, appeal to surrounding tiles, and defense against invaders.

You can settle a desert or snow turning one tile into 2f1p. Deserts amd snow can gain yields from storms. You can plop lots of cs improvements on them as well as any number of wonders. They are also reasonable places for districts.

You can't settle , work, or improve mountains or build districts or wonders on them except for fringe cases (incas, machu picchu).

On the other hand, you're getting campuses for half the production, you're probably producing fewer settles, and your cities are all getting +10% production right away. And it's not as if Mayan cities can't also build granaries and aqueducts and all of the other things that increase housing, too.

Actually, two more things. If you do build the farms, then you'll probably be getting more gold than others, which means that you can start buying builders or granaries in new cities. Especially if you get a monumentality golden age, which is somewhat easier to do with a unique campus and a unique archer.

Also, since you don't have to worry about settling on rivers, you can instead prioritize first-ring tiles even more than you normally would, which probably gives your cities more productions that the cities of other players.

Really, two farms isn't that significant. And if you're playing with Secret Societies mode turned on, then you can almost always spare a title for Liang. Then, it's one builder for every two cities. Not a huge investment, really.

I guess we agree to disagree. It's a huge opportunity cost to offset a malus without an adequate bonus to make up for it, and it occurs in the most crucial phase of the game.

For example, the moment your capital hits 2 population, all your food yields are cut in half until and unless you use builders to increase your housing. This makes growing and thus working more tiles extremely slow. Your capital doesn't even get the +10%.

Your expansions immediately start at half food yields. 10% of nothing is still nothing (hyperbole but let's presume average-good yields on the city center and 1st workable tile... 2f2p each =4/4, so even with +10% that's in practice 2.2f/4.4p.)

 

[Revanchist]

One of the big problems that causes Mayans to be such a reroll intense civ (The likes of which no other civ game has had) is that you aren't guaranteed a plantation luxury, which may have been mentioned earlier. While you will probably get 1 or 2 plantations in a 'bad' start, it is still massively detrimental since the observatory in conjunction with farms is what the mayans are all about. Furthermore, 10% in the early game is negligible. Later on, you may get some use out of it, but that is if you survive long enough to get everything up and running. The mayans really need a more forgiving start bias that gives them both flat land and plantation resources consistently. Anything near the coast, desert, or tundra jeopardizes their position and weakens them considerably.

The saving grace is the Hul'che which is great at massacring AI units that dare to step within your 6 tiles of death, but beyond that they need melee support to take cities and raze them so that you can set up your own efficiently.

If I were to change the Mayan bonuses, it would be

A) Giving them access to jungle removal and farms on hills at irrigation
B) Increasing the range to 8 tiles for the yield bonus and changing it to an even +20/-20%
C) Giving them a small combat bonus against city states so that they can perform better with city states in their radius

 

[Lord Lakely]

Easy way to buff the mayans: give their cities inside their inner ring extra culture/science yields per pop in cities with an observatory.

Not sure what the current values are, but I believe it's roughly 0.5 Sci/Cult per citizen. Bump that up to 0.75 per citizen inside the 7 Tile ring, attach that to the Observatory and you should have a really amazing tall civ.