CivDip XIII - Dancing with the Devil!

[Dreadnought]

Russia: I kind of need more centre's right? So here it goes. If you let me have Bulgaria I will then attack Austria!

Is that the case? Are you really going to attack me Russia? It seems you already are going against me by actually not helping me into Bulgaria, that you wouldn't be content with Ankara, Smyrna, and Constantinople - which I would have allowed you to have - instead risking war with me?

I want an explanation, Russia...on your desperate measures to get SCs because Germany and England are kicking your butt

 

[Sheep]

Sorry I like to keep my diplomacy a little more secret then on the open forum. I have defernded myself and told you what really happened. Now I shall be returning to emails and pms.

 

[Arminius]

Well, the Russians withdrew to Prussia, and Turkey did nothing and the fleet of aegean sank.


Austria: 4 supply centers, 4 units. No units to build or remove.
England: 5 supply centers, 5 units. No units to build or remove.
France: 6 supply centers, 6 units. No units to build or remove.
Germany: 4 supply centers, 4 units. No units to build or remove.
Italy: 5 supply centers, 5 units. No units to build or remove.
Russia: 8 supply centers, 6 units. 2 units may be built.
Turkey: 2 supply centers, 2 units. No units to build or remove.

I'm out of town, so if it pleases the court: Russia tell everyone your builds when you like, then orders are due on Monday. If the court disaproves the Russian builds are due Monday. Either way:
The next deadline is Monday, 28 March 2005 @ 2359 GMT.

 

[Sheep]

I am too busy over the Easter break and thus the builds will be in on Monday. After all I have some serious diplomacvy to take care of now.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

This is what I feel is one of the bad points of Diplomacy.

A nation (Turkey) knows he is going to die, so he actually supports another nations units into his territory (Russia) so that the other nation (ME) would not get it. I find that completely wrong. Just because we had maybe said something in our negotiations doesn't mean that the other nation deserves your territories your giving him. Both nations used irrational tactics (in a bad way) to both get what they wanted: 1. More centers (Russia) 2. For another naion not to get his supply centers (Turkey and me). Why you just wouldn't defend your centers and die honorly is beyond me; going down as a turncoat, giving your centers to another nation freely, is simply unjustified. I think you let personal problems (which I am not aware of) to say

"I am going to die. Hey Russia, want my centers? I do not want the Austrian to have them!"

So, I am now afraid to try to force what I want through Gnarfflinger, because he might just give his centers to someone else!

Actually, as Sheep pointed out, I was deceived. I went for a glimmer of hope, rather than an unsatisfying death...

Bulgaria was the price demanded by a would be ally. Would any of you blatantly ignore this opportunity and fight for a centre you would have lost had the enemies ganged up on you anyway? This would at some point allow me to survive and hopefully turn the tables on the enemies. I got stabbed. that's part of the game. It seems like I could whine, but Dreadnaught seems to be doing better than I could have...

Yes, I didn't want Austria to get the centres, but only because I had, at that point some illusion of survival...

 

[Dreadnought]

You were surrounded by Russian troops. You had a disillusion that Russia wouldn't fall prey to his wants and go for Ankara (of course, not in a bad way!)

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Actually, as Sheep pointed out, I was deceived. I went for a glimmer of hope, rather than an unsatisfying death...

Bulgaria was the price demanded by a would be ally. Would any of you blatantly ignore this opportunity and fight for a centre you would have lost had the enemies ganged up on you anyway? This would at some point allow me to survive and hopefully turn the tables on the enemies. I got stabbed. that's part of the game. It seems like I could whine, but Dreadnaught seems to be doing better than I could have...

Yes, I didn't want Austria to get the centres, but only because I had, at that point some illusion of survival...

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The first and foremost thing you should do in Diplomacy is cover your ass, otherwise you are simply leaving yourself wide open to exploitation.

There was no possible justification for giving up Bulgaria and leave Ankara wide open. The idea that the Russian could do anything else with those two fleets other than attack Turkey is crazy. Secondly if the Russian was in alliance with Italy and Austria, why would he need support into Bulgaria? That should have told you that Russia wasn't working with Italy/Austria. Result? Support Bulgaria from the Aegean and defeat Ankara from Black Sea, you'd have a build to play with and a stronger position from which to negociate.

As soon as Russia had than second southern fleet, you should have worked with anyone but Russia or alone. Certain dispositions of forces preclude any possibility of cooperation.

People appear to me to put far too much thought into diplomacy and getting along with as many nations as possible and too little into practicalities, such as what real options do the other nations have. Just like before WW1 with Germany building lots of battleships, Britain knew those ships due to their range could have no other purpose than be a weapon against Britain. The result was that British foreign policy was anti-German with the Admiralty very keen on getting Britain into to the war to crush that fleet. The same should apply in diplomacy, if your neighbour selects a disposition of forces than show you to be the target of aggression, don't rely on words doing anything, cover your ass!

 

[Dreadnought]

I agree with you...how could Turkey support Russia into Bulgaria when he could be defending Ankara? And when Russia made another fleet in Sevestapol, didn't you even have the slightest idea that he would be going after you? You cannot simply hope that a nation, whose builds show he's going after you, will actually leave you alone

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The first and foremost thing you should do in Diplomacy is cover your ass, otherwise you are simply leaving yourself wide open to exploitation.

There was no possible justification for giving up Bulgaria and leave Ankara wide open. The idea that the Russian could do anything else with those two fleets other than attack Turkey is crazy. Secondly if the Russian was in alliance with Italy and Austria, why would he need support into Bulgaria? That should have told you that Russia wasn't working with Italy/Austria. Result? Support Bulgaria from the Aegean and defeat Ankara from Black Sea, you'd have a build to play with and a stronger position from which to negociate.

As soon as Russia had than second southern fleet, you should have worked with anyone but Russia or alone. Certain dispositions of forces preclude any possibility of cooperation.

People appear to me to put far too much thought into diplomacy and getting along with as many nations as possible and too little into practicalities, such as what real options do the other nations have. Just like before WW1 with Germany building lots of battleships, Britain knew those ships due to their range could have no other purpose than be a weapon against Britain. The result was that British foreign policy was anti-German with the Admiralty very keen on getting Britain into to the war to crush that fleet. The same should apply in diplomacy, if your neighbour selects a disposition of forces than show you to be the target of aggression, don't rely on words doing anything, cover your ass!

First, The Italians attacked the Aegean sea. That cut that support. The only way to have protected Bulgaria at that point would have been to hold in Bulgaria, which would have guaranteed my destruction. Yes, I could have four centres, and three nations trying to take them from me, but this whole thing stems from one player whining because he lost one centre and didn't get it back. And he thinks I have issues...

Second, My strategy was to kiss Russia's ass. Compared to the three things that ended up on the table, that sounded best. Italy offered that I should try to reach a truce with Austria, while they pursued gains elsewhere. If any of you have been paying attention to Italy's moves, that was a lie that they expected me to swallow. Second was Austria, who claimed that they would agree to a truce for the return of Bulgaria. Excuse me, but What am I doing here then? Third was Russia. It sounded like jump through some hoops now and maybe have a chance to survive. I took it...

So to recap, my options were:

1: Retreat from Bulgaria, get betrayed by Italy, piss of the Russians, and be thought of as a fool.

2: Do what the Russians wanted, still get screwed by Italy, be accused of either being unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and still thought of as a fool.

3: Keep the four centres as Kitten of Chaos says that I should have done, aggravate all three neighbours, get eliminated, and still thought of as a fool.

4: Not submit orders, be called a poor sport and a quitter, and still thought of as a fool.

Four landmines to step on. No matter which way I go I was screwed. Now can we please get on with it?

 

[Sheep]

For whats its worth I felt bad for you.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I agree with you...how could Turkey support Russia into Bulgaria when he could be defending Ankara? And when Russia made another fleet in Sevestapol, didn't you even have the slightest idea that he would be going after you? You cannot simply hope that a nation, whose builds show he's going after you, will actually leave you alone

As mentioned above, the support would have been cut from the Aegean, your army would have bounced the Russian army, you'd have gotten Bulgaria back with a build. That didn't happen. Even if Russia didn't take Ankara, you'd still be whining...

 

[Dreadnought]

First, The Italians attacked the Aegean sea. That cut that support. The only way to have protected Bulgaria at that point would have been to hold in Bulgaria, which would have guaranteed my destruction. Yes, I could have four centres, and three nations trying to take them from me, but this whole thing stems from one player whining because he lost one centre and didn't get it back. And he thinks I have issues...

Second, My strategy was to kiss Russia's ass. Compared to the three things that ended up on the table, that sounded best. Italy offered that I should try to reach a truce with Austria, while they pursued gains elsewhere. If any of you have been paying attention to Italy's moves, that was a lie that they expected me to swallow. Second was Austria, who claimed that they would agree to a truce for the return of Bulgaria. Excuse me, but What am I doing here then? Third was Russia. It sounded like jump through some hoops now and maybe have a chance to survive. I took it...

So to recap, my options were:

1: Retreat from Bulgaria, get betrayed by Italy, piss of the Russians, and be thought of as a fool.

2: Do what the Russians wanted, still get screwed by Italy, be accused of either being unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and still thought of as a fool.

3: Keep the four centres as Kitten of Chaos says that I should have done, aggravate all three neighbours, get eliminated, and still thought of as a fool.

4: Not submit orders, be called a poor sport and a quitter, and still thought of as a fool.

Four landmines to step on. No matter which way I go I was screwed. Now can we please get on with it?

If you did #3, you would not of been a fool, I would have thought "Hey, at least he's putting up a good fight" and thought you were actually the oppostie of fool. Whining? WHINING? You see me whining? I condemmed your actions, not cried like a fool.

You would have held Bulgaria because, if you hadn't seen the orders, both me and Russia would have gone for there. You would have had another build, and you could have maybe done better. But to fall for Russia's trick, thats a whole other story. YOU were probably whining at Russia because he backstabbed you!

Now, I hope you feel good, because even England, who has nothing to do with you, even calls you a fool. If you had done #3,. you would have a build now.

 

[Dreadnought]

As mentioned above, the support would have been cut from the Aegean, your army would have bounced the Russian army, you'd have gotten Bulgaria back with a build. That didn't happen. Even if Russia didn't take Ankara, you'd still be whining...

Whine all you want Gnarfflinger. Your the one whining now. Case closed...I have heard what you said and don't agree to it.

You are a fool.

Whine all you want...

 

[Dreadnought]

For whats its worth I felt bad for you.

I felt bad for him too

 

[Sheep]

Russia will build an army in Warsaw and an army in Moscow.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Russia will build an army in Warsaw and an army in Moscow.

It took a whole weekend to come up with that?

 

[Dreadnought]

Orders are due when...?

 

[Keirador]

Arminius has not yet gotten back to us on that.

 

[Keirador]

Has anyone had any contact with Arminius at all?

 

[Dreadnought]

Well, if the deadline for Russia's builds was Monday, then orders should be due Thursday the 31st...