Civic Feedback Requested

[Kael]

Im going through all the civics right now. I was looking for recent civic feedback here in the forum and couldnt track it down (I know a few people had posted some really good civic feedback).

If you are interested in seeing some changes in the civics please post here or place a link here to other posts about the subject.

Also a few of your favorite civics, and those you never use would be useful in the examination.

 

[BCalchet]

Hmm... a few of my thoughts on civics, part #1: Government.

Despotism: War Weariness has never been an issue for me, so this one is basically something to get out of as soon as possible. A bit weak even as the initial civic. Suggestion: Drop the maintenance penalty or make it No Upkeep. Something like "-20% production in all cities, +50% production in capital" might reflect the pretty centralised form of government I see this being, as well as make it less and less useful as the game progresses.

City States: Handy when dealing with overextended empires, I suppose - not one I personally use, but I see no problems with it.

God King: The one to use. Minor penalty (+10% distance maintenance? Psh.) which is usually more than overshadowed by the capital gold bonus. Add to this the production bonus, almost unheard of among otherwise good civics, and you have an over-all amazing choice despite the high upkeep cost. Then add happy, and never switch again. My suggestion here would be to drop the happy - it'll still be an excellent civic.

Aristocracy: Rarely useful, but very useful when it does get used - which is with farm-focused financial leaders, mostly Flauros. Ensures good growth without sacrificing commerce. Royal Guards are useful as an added bonus, too. If anything, I'd like to see a way to make it more attractive to non-financial civilizations, but it works as is.

Theocracy: Overshadowed by God King. Less certain happiness and weaker effects, and it also overlaps somewhat with Religious Discipline over in Education, effect-wise. It also shows up late on the tech-tree. Making it +2-3 happy with religion and/or +4-6 experience would make it more of a contender, I'd reckon. Could also be a good place to put any new interesting religious civic ideas.

Republic: Adding at least 3 happiness (more if enemies run it) to your largest cities, this one doubles as an offensive weapon - but even so, I'd usually rather run God King unless I'm terribly pressed for a few more points of happy. Doesn't need any change, but dropping upkeep to medium might be a good idea.

's all for now.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Crusade IMO is very weak. It should be a very powerful civic, but it sux. Also, God King should be toned down alot.

 

[loocas]

they all work so well. You said in somewhere else that the only real drawback of each one should be that you don't get to use the others, and you and the team have done a good job at that.

it's probably due to my playstyle, but I'd say that the only one that ever seems overpowered is City States. Sure there are times when the war weariness, minus culture, and minus garrison aren't worth it, but the only reason I really ever use anything else is the hit from Republic. Anyway, maybe I just need to branch out.

the others offer great plusses and I think I've used just about every one at one time or another.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Oh, that reminds me, the buildings allowed during crusade seemed a bit random to me last time I used it.

 

[westamastaflash]

I think that Agriculture is a bit overpowered. In comparison with the other economy civics, it's bonus is incredible (+1 food and +1 health) while the negative is almost never encountered (farms on grasslands and flood plains get the benefit but not the drawback). Perhaps a blanket -10% to hammers and -10% to science (agriculturalism is not conducive to research...)?

Conquest seems to be pretty good for what it's role is.

Mercantalism could be adjusted. In addition to no foreign trade routes, it shouldn't let you trade for resources (if you're looking to be sort-of historically accurate per the late middle ages). To compensate, perhaps bonus gold for each resource you control... thinking out loud here. It works pretty well as it is, however.


Foreign trade could use some work. Maybe it could give a 1 extra trade route, a +50% bonus to trade routes, and +50% war weariness? Perhaps rename it to "Free Trade" to better reflect it's use. There are already major gold problems in this version with Inflation as powerful as it is, and why I want a civic that makes those problems even worse...

I like Guardian of Nature. It's almost as powerful as agriculture, with the +5 health.... This can make for some huge cities, since health is in short supply but happy faces are everywhere.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Social Order seems to be the weakest civic of them all. Personally, I think that religious civics should be among the stronger ones, to give you an incentive to convert. Unquestioning Obedience is practically worthless, since The Order heroes do not require it and since there is no Order wonder. I would suggest at least letting the civic grant happiness per military unit guarding the city (a change I have already made on my own), since it seems thematically appropriate and since this is one easily implemented effect from the vanilla civics that isn't used at all in FfH.


Slavery also seems quite weak, not in and of itself but because so many of the Labor Civics are better. (I used to use it a lot anyway, but only with the Calabim. Since Feed now only works on bloodpets, not captured slaves, I never use it anymore.) Since all the civics that allow gold rushing are labor civics, slavery using civs can never gold rush, but those using Sacrifice the Weak still can. I often choose AV over OO just because I like having the option of rushing multiple ways in different cities (e.g., using gold to rush lighthouses, granaries, breading pits, etc., to get the population in new cities high enough to allow whipping).

I think Consumption would be an excellent choice of a non-labor civic that should allow gold rushing. If the people value consumption so much, then surely they will be willing to work a little harder to have the cash facilitate their debauchery. I usually change this civic to allow gold rushing and to provide extra happiness with several buildings (taverns, markets, inns, Public Baths, Bazaar of Mammon, etc), but also to cause more unhealthiness and extra unhappiness from other buildings (tax offices, temple of temperance, etc). What I think would be a really nice effect (but don't know how to implement) would be to also increase (perhaps double or even triple) the happiness from resources, but also to cause unhappiness in cities that don't have access to any given luxury (if any city you or any civ you have contact with control has access to it). Just knowing that the citizens of other cities have access to stuff that you can't get would surely irritate such greedy people. You always want what you don't have, and knowing that other people do have it just makes it that much worse... It would be like a mini-Greed-Quest every game!



One thing I think would be nice is if civics could grant free xp to specific unitcombat types. It would then be nice if Religious discipline and Theocracy would grant free xp to disciple units, while Scholarship would grant xp to arcane units (maybe a little for disciple would make sense here to, but less), Arete could grant free siege xp, and military discipline and conquest would grant the bonuses only to traditional solders (melee, mounted, archery). It would also be interesting if civics could make certain specialist grant xp, and also if specialists could grant free xp based on uncombat type, instead of just a flat mount like warlords joined to cities in Warlords/BtS. This could allow for some very interesting religious specific civics. I'm more interested in civics being able to offer more bonuses than how the civics will actually operate, since I'll probably play around with them a little myself anyway.

 

[Sureshot]

im gonna list the civics i find to be mostly useless and how i think they could be improved to be useful:

Fend for themselves
+1 xp for units
+1 unhealth for no upkeep should still have some sort of benefit, and toughening up units slightly makes sense for a civic that makes people fend for themselves

Consumption
Unlimited Merchant Specialists
theres just not enough to this civic by itself to ever want to switch to it

Social Order
+25% military production
it must be the weakest religious civic available, it should atleast have a greater military production bonus than nationhood

Theocracy
BCalchets ideas are good on this, i dont know what this needs but it definitely needs something

Military Discipline
+1 garrison happiness per military unit
This mechanic is sorely needed back in, its a staple of civ, and military discipline is a great place for it. The current benefits of military discipline are weak, and apprenticeship is a better way to make a military, which seems counter intuitive.

Guilds
an alright civic if you want those types of specialists, but plain and boring. could use something to make it interesting, though hopefully there'll be plenty to do just that with the guilds mechanic in shadow

Decentralization
-20% distance maintenance
would be nice to have a reason to go back to this at some point

Tribalism
+1 food from Camps
+1 production from Pastures
+20% maintenance
something to justify Low Upkeep, and to promote not just cottaging everything, hence being more tribal less metropolitan

I'd like to see Republic just plain ole removed, and have Magocracy replace it and get some interesting bonuses. Would be a lot more fun, and would get rid of that annoying mechanic that punishes others for your government type if they dont have it.

Mercentilism and Foreign Trade could both use a little bonus of some sort, as is i never use them. Not sure what should be done, but something.

Generally itd be nice if every civic did something, like No Education, so that theres interesting choices about them.

Edit Added after reading Magisters post:
Social order getting garrison happiness sounds good too, and gold rushing on consumption was what i thinking before too

 

[Sureshot]

oh, and my favourite civics are:
city states, godking (on one city challenges heh), aristocracy (when financial), religion, pacifism (when philosophical), arete, military state, agriculture, guardian of nature, sacrifice the weak, public healers, apprenticeship, religious discipline, scholarship

 

[Scott Alexander]

I'm more of a builder, so I don't use the military civics much, but of the pacifist civics, Foreign Trade stands out as useless. The minus ten percent gold is IMHO enough of a problem to make the extra trade routes worthless. I know that the orthodox answer is trade routes give science as well, but if you've got less gold you've got to turn down the science slider. The culture's not too useful either.

I don't know whether it would be too powerful if you just got rid of the minus gold restriction, but it'd be worse checking out. There aren't a whole lot of empires that have lost money by trading anyway.

 

[Nimbus]

All starting civics I usually get off of ASAP and never go back to.

Government: get to God King ASAP and when empire gets to unwieldy switch to City States, might switch back to GK for a wonder push or to Republic if and only if unhappiness hit is to high, otherwise stay with City States for rest of game.

Cultural Values: Religion, Nationhood and Liberty see most of my use. Will occasionally use social order, rarely use crusade, never use pacifism or consumption

Labor: love all civics here and use each differently depending on who I am playing.

Economy: is a decentralization or guardians of nature Only for me. hate all the other choices. Liked first incarnation of Agriculture, second version was to powerful, current version just doesn't do it for me, I must be seeing more games with plains and tundra than some people(or be willing to put farms on these)

Compassion: never use Fend for Themselves, Use all others, wondering why Protect the Meek and Public Healers were changed in 0.25

Education: Use everything except Military Discipline

 

[thapagan]

I am very focused, God King, Pacifiscm, arete/slavery, and apprenticeship.
Maybe some of the less popular civics could be given a unit. Social Order with a level 4 or 5 unit that had law 3 to end disorder in newly captured cities. Or a medium cost building that you could keep, a bank for mercantislm, a fishmonger for consumsuption would provide extra health in cities with harbor? etc.

 

[Ekolite]

Agriculture annoys me because i use it in every game and becuase I'm more of a builder really I'm always too scared to changed civics incase all my important towns' population starves.

Also I think Aristocrasy needs to be more benefitial to the Calabim, aren't they meant to be aristocratic vampires anyway? I play thye calabim a lot and favour City states and occasionally god king much more.

I love the idea of magocracy from AOI, think it would be good to have it replace boring republic.

Also just a thoght but would it be possible to give some civs a slight advantage of using a certain civic. Not enough to make it overshadow all other possible choices but maybe just a litle. For example, maybe the calabim would get a -10% city maintanence cost under aristocracy. The sheaim under tribalism have a slightly higher chance of spawning demons from planar gates etc.

 

[Maniac]

Perhaps feedback would be more useful if Kael first explained the reasoning why he made the civics the way they are now.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I don't know how to be polite about this, I'm sorry... but I believe some of the reasons and reasoning behind why "this civic is bad" are common newbie mistakes carried over from regular Civ4. "Believe" is the key word here: I could be that newbie without myself realizing it.

A few pointers:
- Slavery usage is a very critical, and unfortunately, very newbie-UNfriendly skill to acquire. It's useful in Civ4, and many of those uses carry over to FFH2. I personally don't like the AV and OO, for my own reasons, but I know how it's done.
- Same idea with military state: drafting is a less general-purpose, but potentially devastatingly powerful weapon. It's also extremely newbie-unfriendly both in Civ4 regular and here. Again, I don't use it for other reasons, but you NEED to know how to do it.
- complicated civics changes: the simpler the civics are, the more applications can be thought of, and the more replayability the game has. Adding details to fix imbalances is like trying to fit a carpet too big for the room - something wrong always pops up somewhere. Rather than complicating civics, why not make suggestions to REMOVE features?
- Consider the effects of expansive and philosophical, please.

My suggested changes:
- Social order: make it a no upkeep civic.
- military state: remove the -culture, free unit upkeep and "can spend gold to finish production". Make it medium upkeep
- Theocracy: add "can build missionaries without temples" ability.

 

[Caradoc]

My favorites are almost the same as Sureshot: city states, godking, religion, pacifism, arete, guardian of nature, caste system, public healers, apprenticeship, religious discipline, scholarship.

I wish Liberty was more rewarding and would like to see more Compassion selections.

 

[xienwolf]

Blanket comment on starting Civics: I think that all starting Civics should have HIGH upkeep, and a very nice effect. A small group of people can easily reach agreement to live in an idealized way, but it becomes a HUGE strain to maintain such ideals as you grow and expand.

As far as the game mechanics go: With small population, high upkeeps are meaningless. You don't actually have to pay anything at all, for quite some time even if you DO find something with high upkeep and switch to it.

Ideas for starting Civics - Take a tip from Cultural Values: Multiple options right out the gate, all with some effect. This just rules. I would also like to see some options for RAW culture (not just a percent bonus, but something to help new cities), free initial promotions to units, free experience, specialist slots, or better results from specialists. Each of these categories are what I look for in Civics, and all of them are really nice in a starting culture, but can diminish with time to make others more favorable. ESPECIALLY if coupled with HIGH UPKEEP.


Quick Question: What on earth does it mean to have a "Preferred Civic" for your leader? Lower upkeep? Better effect? Never have found this one out.


GOVERNMENT
Despotism - Starting Civic, comment as before.
City States - I use this one a LOT. I like to place my cities near resources I want, and that usually means far from the capitol. Plus I like my cities spread out to need 3 cultural border expansions in order to connect to my empire so there is breathing room (now that number of cities penalizes you). And in games where I am worried about AC, I capture every city. So I LOVE a civic to allow more/widespread cities.
God King - Nice overall, I use it when I have only 2 or 3 cities and haven't been forced to spread out much.
Aristocracy - Never used it. Don't see the point. I would rather have food than money, and if I combine this with Agriculture, I would rather have hammers than money too. IMO, this one is a waste of time.
Theocracy - Haven't tried for a religious victory, would use this if I did. Even without it though, if I was able to get my economy balanced and could AFFORD to move out of City States... I LOVE free exp from civics!
Republic - Extra Culture is nice in a civic. I have often used the cultural civics to take over nearby cities without war, or push toward a culture victory. Sadly, great bards are FAR better for this than actually earning your own culture. Larger bonus in order maybe? Or smaller culture bombs?

CULTURAL VALUES
Religion - Culture boost, love em. But could it have a raw culture value as well, so that you can expand borders without building the money stealing Obelisk? Also, can you make the happiness come from the BUILDING CLASS Temple, instead of listing every temple? It'll be worse with the new religions coming in.
Pacifism - Nicely balanced overall IMO.
Nationhood - Can't say I have ever used it except for the couple of turns till I get a religion or do some other civic swap if I start with it. The military production at the start of the game is sure nifty though, and it seems balanced, just not my playstyle.
Social Order, Crusade - Haven't used either one.
Consumption - Another that I am decently happy with. When I have a struggling economy and cannot max my science slider, this helps me out tons.
Liberty - Free Specialist. I love this MORE than I love free Experience. I especially like civics that make specialists all give you additional benefits. Can we get some? Overall, I adore Liberty. (culture rocks!)

LABOR
The whole category is decent. But make Tribalism DO something please? See earlier comments on fleshing out starting civics. And Guilds shouldn't give unlimited Bard. Liberty does that already, don't step on Liberty's Toes ;P

ECONOMY
Decentralization - If it is what you start with, when were you ever centralized? Bad name, and common comment about starting civics
Agriculture - Yeah, the minus 1 Hammer is just plain silly. Unless you happen to have a ton of plains, you don't notice, nor care much. The point of a super-food farm is to let you do specialists or pure hammers mining.
Conquest - Free EXP! Love it. But maybe the whole "Spend food to build units" should belong in LABOR, not economy. How you produce units is a labor issue. How you handle your gold is economy. Make one of the new options of starting civics in Labor have that effect maybe?
Mercantile - Pretty nice, and I often use it when my econmy starts to flounder. Frequent problem of mine sadly, but working on it
Foreign Trade - Just started using this, and I am liking it so far. Well done IMO.
Guardian of Nature - Never used it. Don't care for FotL much. But it looks decent.

COMPASSION
Sacrafice the Weak - Haven't used it. Looks fun
Fend for Themselves - Maybe the "good" leaders shouldn't love to switch to this one quite so much? Never used it myself, by the time I NEED a non-cost civic, I need the other effects far more. Maybe this one is a good candidate for making units start with the "Subdue Animal" promotion? You figure they'd know how to hunt...
Basic Care - Well, at least this category has another option right out the gates. Even though it sorta sucks too.
Protect the Meek - Decent premise. I don't often use it as there are PLENTY of health buildings I have not yet built usually when I get to this point. But I don't wind up with gigantic populations usually.
Public Healers - Just an upgrade to Protect the Meek. Making this the most boring category of Civics.

Education
No School System - What about Verbal Heritage? Sheesh. Starting Civics...
Apprenticeship - Ye gods I love it! Free Experience. I often stick with this most of the game.
Military Discipline - Faster military, lower War costs... But enough to be worth Medium Upkeep? Not for me. Maybe it should have stronger / more effect?
Religious Discipline - Could this one PLEASE have a chance of REMOVING non-state religions in your cities? Inquisitors come fairly late, and until then, you have no work-around for the negative happy but to build the other religion's temple. And why should THIS civic be the one to make it worth your time to do so?
Scholarship - Specialists gain more bonus! Love it. And this whole category makes you decide WHICH specialist you want unlimited numbers of. Quite the nice effect if I do say so myself (and I do!)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

(nevermind, then )

Quick Question: What on earth does it mean to have a "Preferred Civic" for your leader? Lower upkeep? Better effect? Never have found this one out.

It is just for a diplomacy bonus. If you use the preferred civic of an ai leader you get a +2 or so "You have wisely chosen your civics" bonus.

 

[xienwolf]

Yeah, after I posted the list and then looked at it I realized my mistake on Compassion and removed it. Never looked at the obvious before (doh!) (_8o(|)

I always thought the "wisely chosen your civics" bonus meant you had the SAME civics as they do. There ought to be a bonus for that one so you can "suck up" to someone by copying their civic selection

 

[DeaExMachina]

Putting aside changes to current Civics I'd like to see an extra Civic in each category. In normal Civ I'd frequently use different Civic combinations to fit my different play style for each game. However in FfH I find myself using the same exact Civics every game! The only real choice is which religion am I going to be which in itself decides that Civic for me because aside from Social Order and Crusade I find all the religion Civics very, very useful. God King/Aristocracy, Consumption, Agriculture and Apprenticeship into RD. As for Labor I don't even leave the starting Civic until I get Guilds, which isn't even in every game.