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Civics - Balance Questions

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Mordachai, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    It's true, and it's unfortunate the discussion has been focused with 'historical realism' rather than what works best for the game. I find that players on the forums find it far easier to design civics by committee based on what pieces of history they are familiar with, nevermind these civics are meant to be played in an actual game, and are not part of a history thesis project. I have not seen a single player post the results of playing a game with their proposed changes, nor any comment on how the civic changes may affect how the AI plays and chooses civics. To me, that is the red-flag that indicates the discussion is not serious and just a method of showing off historical credentials.

    Worse, there are actual civics with real balance problems, like Mercantilism, and they get no discussion, because the civics that are more easily understood and debated suck up all the oxygen.
     
  2. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Deity

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    Doing my own modding and experimenting I start to understand what you are saying:
    I have added 5 new categories (Territory, Immigration, Labor, Media and Stance) and added several new civics and moved/modded several old ones. I had a test game (Normal map size, Blitz, 2 continents) and had auto-played from ancient to modern era checking AI choices regularly. I am happy with most of them, except for Stance.
    I have moved here and changed Pacifism. It's the best category of its type for most of the time but the AI is simply not willing to choose it :rolleyes: Is there some special AI code attached to it? Or am I just simply lame? :lol:
     
  3. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    I've been making some minor tweaks to civics myself; such as adding the Garrison and Military Base to Junta's "+1 Happiness with X" buildings, adding the Monument to Divine Cult's +Happiness, and upping the domestic connection bonus % on Mercantalism slightly. How do you go about making an addon/modmod? So that these minor tweaks don't get zapped between revisions?
     
  4. Mordachai

    Mordachai Warlord

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    Keep a copy of your master files (your edits) someplace else. Then, after you do an update of the real file, you can use BeyondCompare (or something like that) to inject your changes back in (though it may require a little more than that - much can be as simple as merging your edits back in).

    You can tell the launcher to exclude certain files - so your edits definitely stay - but then you don't get updated (in those files). So better to use the BeyondCompare approach, IMO.
     
  5. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    I'll take a look at that then, thanks. :)
    I would like to know the 'modmod' approach though as well, so I don't have to re-adjust the main files ever ^^ Unless it's a complicated thing to do then.... Never mind maybe? XD

    I only have the Launcher set to not mess with my audio defines changes (Removed some tracks I dislike, renamed others, added a few...) and the Global Defines so I don't have to constantly re-adjust the painfully slow camera panning - which is horrendous on Large+ maps ><
     
  6. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    I don't have a problem with the Camera panning, it literally flies across the landscape.

    I DON'T use the Framing option, 1st tab in Bug menu, and I have a 1 Gig Memory card.

    Occasionally I'll have slow panning, I just reload the game and its fixed, might have to reboot the computer, very rare.

    I play Gigantic size maps, Eternity speed not a problem.
     
  7. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    It defaults to a very slow 300 (Or less, can't remember the exact number) for me; to where if I want to get anywhere on maps I have to click on the minimap instead since the camera just moves at a snails pace ><
     
  8. Soviet elf

    Soviet elf Chieftain

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    Note: I played RoM:aND on Monarch difficulty, no random events, no revolutions (I tried revs long time ago, they just weakened AI, giving me more small opponents instead of a few strong ones), modern corporations, no "guild corporations".

    1. Slavery is OP. Yes, you probably heard this many times. Because it's true. Why is slavery OP?
    1) Barter is one of the worst starting civics (-33% :science:!) and slavery is the only early alternative to barter. Actually moving from barter to slavery means +65% :science: (2/3 to 1 is +50% boost and 1,5*1,1=1,65). +65%! The best strategy is to research slavery as the first tech (or beeline it) and switch ASAP. You should remove science penalty from barter (gold and connections penalties are enough) or move slavery to society category or both.
    2) +10% :commerce:, commerce bonuses are rare and valuable. I would understand extra :commerce: from plantations, but why + to all commerce?
    3) Early production: not just +%:hammers:, but slave market provides free slave, after modifiers it's +4-5 :hammers: per city. Very useful, especially in the early game, and has no alternatives. Also unlim-d slaves have a synergy with village hall: another free slave for extra hammers. But personally I avoid building village+ halls outside of capital (increases corp&city costs too much in late game).
    4) Other economic civics are too weak. Coinage, guilds, mercantilism are worse than slavery even for science/commerce. And slavery also provides huge production. Also it's funny that coinage unlocks national mint which provides good bonuses with silver and gold... but coinage blocks silver and gold (national mint still is useful for FM, of course). Free market is a first civic that really can compete with slavery. AI doesn't agree with me and used coinage, guilds, mercantilism and avoided slavery (not always). Probably, strange effect "happiness for other civs without slavery" confuses AI?
    5) Slavery doesn't generate any serious unhappiness in industrial and modern eras, while it's still a strong civic (+10% :hammers: and :commerce:) even after slave markets are obsolete. Very unrealistic. Just compare it to unhappiness from conscription or state atheism.
    My proposals: 1) move slavery to society category (because slavery is compatible with coinage, mercantilism, free market, but not with liberal societies); 2) remove +10% :commerce: bonus, add "+2 :commerce: to plantations" instead; 3) remove free slave from market; 4) add +50% :c5angry: from pop size (at least +25%). I'm sure people hate slavery more than monarchy (OK, except American founding fathers) or conscription. As alternative, may be, +4 :c5angry: for slavery from some industrial era buildings like publishing house, public school, factory, computer network - more educated and informed people oppose slavery; 5) also make civs with more advanced civics in same category (nationalist, liberal) react negatively to civ with slavery (especially liberal civs).

    2. Monarchy - too many effects? The core parts of the civic are maintenance reduction and happiness per military unit. My proposal is to remove most unimportant effects like archer production boost, +gold from walls, unlimited nobles, no unhappiness in capital. Also I think, you should remove +1 happiness and +5% :culture: for democracy and remove or increase all "+0.5 :science:/:gold:/:culture: per specific specialist".

    3. Federalism is useless? No strong sides, monarchy gives bigger upkeep reduction without production penalties of federalism. AI doesn't use it too. And most federal gov-ts IRL are democracies anyway. In current form you can remove federal completely.

    4. Society. Currently caste is the best society civic for industrial era: no upkeep and +15% :hammers:. At least increase upkeep to high. Maybe, replace 1 :c5angry: with +25% :c5angry: from population? Tribal actually is a good civic for early game (cities too unhappy to grow), why it gives extra :hammers:? Why tribal society is more productive? Bourgeois - another :hammers: bonus. Villas need food, and I need food for foundries and power plants, and without villas bourgeois is worse than caste. Proletariat, feudal and liberal look not very useful for me, but AI loves them. Why is liberal civic so bad? -5% :hammers: and :commerce:. Social liberalism is bad for economy? Freedom is bad for science? I used it for roleplay reasons, I can live with it, but it's still a bad civic.

    5. Planned. Not only civic is mediocre by itself, it bans corporations, making it one of the worst civics in the category. Production? Mining corp is the best (both main bonus and +% from special building). If not Mining, than at least CreCon. Even aluminium corp building gives +12% :hammers: & :commerce: with coal and bauxite. And food corps are very useful to compensate for :yuck: from factories and power plants. If you want production, you want corporations, not planned economy.
    Corporatism and slavery (even modern slavery) are much better than planned. Proposal: change "no corporations" to "no foreign corporations". If you can have medieval guilds as corps, you can have state-owned enterprises as corps. Also remove inflation bonus and increase :hammers: bonus for planning offices. And even after that I would still prefer free market, probably. Not important, but would be nice: planned shouldn't be allowed to build some capitalist buildings like advertising agencies, wall street etc. There were no stock exchanges and mass advertising in planned economy.

    6. Military civics. Military civics between banditry and vassalage are bad (though AI likes warrior caste). Warrior caste hurts production and commerce, conscription generates too much unhappiness (even AI avoids it), mercenaries' cost is insanely high for early stage of the game. IRL some countries still have mandatory military service, sadly, and many people in these countries actually approve conscription. It's really strange that conscription gives much more unhappiness than slavery - it should be vice versa, +50% :c5angry: from pop is more fitting for slavery.

    7. Vassalage & shanty towns. Why do shanty towns require vassalage, how are they related to vassalage at all? Why do they improve production and commerce? Why vassalage, civic that's already better than all previous ones, needs extra boost? Proposal: remove shanty towns or remove vassalage requirement from them.

    8. I really disliked "foreign policy" category. For me it looks like attempt to represent already existing game mechanics (diplomacy, tribute, aid) with clumsy civics. My commerce drained by "imperium" civs, even though they are on different continent and my navy is more advanced and can easily defeat theirs, but they have megastacks of obsolete units in cities, so they are technically stronger. Protectionism is an economic idea (which contradicts free market). If you want to maximize income, Imperium is the best. If you don't want to annoy neighbors, Interventionism is the only sensible civic. Most AIs use Imperium and Interventionism, some used Appeasement (some without practical reason).

    9. No WW. I noticed that my liberal democracy with professional army (-50% WW) and interventionism (-50% WW) has no war weariness at all. Strange and unrealistic.
     
  9. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Just wonder...
    From what I can read, these observations are strictly connected to the way you play. Suffice it to say that almost no way you can use slavery that long if you play with revolutions.
     
  10. nionios

    nionios Prince

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    I use slavery when available and never switch to any other civic because I consider slavery as a very powerful civic until the end of the game.Also I haven't experienced any problems with revolutions on the later eras.
     
  11. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Then that might depend on revolution level. I usually play with the highest because others don't cause many revolts to tell the truth
     
  12. Soviet elf

    Soviet elf Chieftain

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    Actually I switched to free market right after economics. Partly for roleplay, but commerce bonuses of FM are very useful too: +20% :commerce: (without penalties of mercantilism), free ports, national mint (it's like bureaucracy bonus in BtS if you have silver and gold). :hammers: aren't everything, I like :science: too. Actually I don't want to leave free market, everything else after FM means significant loss of :commerce: and either don't impress me (corporatism, regulated) or looks very bad and harmful (planned, green). I just looked at slavery and saw no big disadvantages in modern times, no extra unhappiness. I suppose, if you want +10% :hammers: and :commerce:, corporatism is better.
    If you put all real disadvantages of slavery in one game setting (highest revolution level), it sounds like not very good choice and not balanced.
     
  13. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Deity

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    @Soviet elf

    Hi!
    Maybe you should try my Chronicles modmod. I've made a lot of civic changes you also mention.
     
  14. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    I play with revolutions but on one of the 2 the lower levels. As I wrote on one of these threads previously I find that slavery can easily be used for most of the early and mid game (pretty much until slave markets obsolete). This is because the main solution to revolutions is a large army, and slavery allows you to build (with the hammer bonus) but more importantly pay for (with the very powerful commerce boost) that army. This army also counters the unhappiness penalty. So slavery comes with the solution to all of its problems.

    I am not convinced this is necessarily a problem, in BtS I tended to enter slavery ASAP and stay in it for a long time, and it was a prominent part of most of the world for most of pre-industrial history. But I feel that this and Monarchy are 2 civics that are significantly stronger than the competition for most of the game.

    [EDIT] One solution that occurred to me was to make the slave market obsolete earlier. It goes obsolete with labor union, which requires marxism and representative democracy. Seems pretty late for actual slave markets, though of course slavery has gone on much longer in some places.
     
  15. Randomness

    Randomness ...

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    I strongly disagree with this for two reasons:

    1) I regularly play with rev and flexible difficulty (so I'm functionally at Diety through most of the game) and I have very few difficulties with rev. Also, when I do have rev problems, Slavery is a very small factor. The stability penalties from distance and colony dwarf the paltary effects of Slavery.

    2) You're arguing that Slavery is balanced the way you play, but you play on the highest difficulty with a setting that greatly increases the difficulty. If a civic is only balanced under these circumstances, it is not balanced.
     
  16. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    There's also tons of options - Game Options, BUG Settings, personal adjustments to the XML or files, etc - that end up influencing these things too. That said, I've never had Slavery itself be much of a problem beyond the Slave Revolt event spam-triggering in a city trying to build a wonder :rolleyes: That's the worst of it.


    There's just too many factors at work though to say if Revolutions are balanced or too easy or too hard. What's easy/hard to someone might not be for someone else based on how they see difficulty as, and that's without going into personal playstyles, decisions in-game, adjustments they've made or options picked... :sad:
     
  17. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Just wonder...
    Just to make it clear, revolution difficulty only affects human players. And although I usually play with flex difficulty, I always start on noble, which most people here think it's too easy. As Rezca said, there are too many factors to consider. But in my experience, I never or almost never use slavery for long.
     
  18. ciadude2

    ciadude2 Chieftain

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    To be honest, the first thing I do each game is go directly for slavery. As long as you manage your stability fairly well, you can avoid major revolts from it(apart from events).
     
  19. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    1st Tech I beeline is Slavery, its 33% reduction in research time, is repaid with the 1st 3 techs.

    The adoption time, is made up in the 1st tech time reduction.

    The boost to hammers for new cities, is brilliant, and its the best civic till Liberalism Free market. By that time, I can suck up the effective 20% reduction in hammers (10% boost + 10% reduction) for the 2 civics, for the 20% :gold: increase nation wide. By this stage, I need gold more then hammers, and I have about 10 Major production cities, with 1-3 Military production with settled great generals.

    Overpowered or not, personal view point, but its reality in this world. Until the industrial revolution, slavery boosted manpower. Vassalage was a form of slavery, as is Caste systems.

    But from a game point of view, its personal playing style. Personally, I have no need for Coinage, I don't see its worth, never used it.

    Monarchy is the most overpowered civic. Unlimited happy from garrisoned troops. It traps the AI's stacks of doom in newly captured cities, and then they make peace with Civ B, have the new city trapped in culture, declare on Civ C and have their stack of doom trapped in a city, with a Civ they'll never have open borders with, revolutions decimate the other cities, and Civ C has a free reign to carve up the Empire of Civ A.

    Solution - That would cause more problems. I'd suggest a higher carrying cost of Military or a log scale of numbers V's cost V's population. ie as a % of Population.
     
  20. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Just wonder...
    Maybe I could just put a cap to happiness from military under monarchy and give slavery a -10% science. Anyway barter is given that big penalty because you're not supposed to use it for long anyway, you should quit it as soon as possible, which is what most of the time happens.
     

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