Civics - Balance Questions

[Samson]

I agree slavery is very strong, I rarely switch out of it until the industrial era. It used to be quite a dilemma when to switch into it, when happiness is generally the critical issue in your empire. However with the current system where there is no pop unhappiness until size 4 it is less of an issue, as most of my cities will be happy at size 1 with slavery and will not be happy at size 4 without slavery it does not come at much of a cost.

When it comes to switching out slavery has a production and gold advantage over the other options (the gold multiplier is unrivalled, and to get the production multiplier of guilds you need to build the guild hall), and comes with happiness and stability penalties. Once you have monarchy the main solution to happiness and stability problems is troops, and the 2 impediments to troops is production but mostly gold.

I guess what I am saying is that slavery has an inbuilt solution to its problems, and so is rarely a bad choice.

 

[Arakhor]

I have to agree with Mordachai, Afforess. It sounds like you've got those two switched.

 

[Mordachai]

Hmmm - seems I should have put the two question/criticism/conversation-starters in two different threads. Cest la vie.

Samson nails it about the slavery - The exact problems it suffers from offers its own solutions. That boost in gold, production, and a building which is very good at boosting both of those further, is just stronger than anything else available. I want slavery to be strong in earlier civs - and maybe I am ideologically driven to want to see a way to have it naturally be nerfed? I would like to see it offer very little anger / problems when cities are small, and offer a large social unrest issue as cities become large and/or more industrialized. The higher the education, the less effective slavery as a ideology should be, imo. Similar to human sacrificing religions - they're great until your populace has been exposed to other ideas and no longer sees things quite the same way.

Maybe I'll try doing a mod mod for myself - tweak the code to add penalties for later ages to slavery. Realism Invictus adds unhappiness and unhealth for every new age you enter, to reflect overall modernity and its increasing demand for luxury goods and urban sprawl. There must be a way to add such negatives just to slavery, to reflect a populace that is growing in exposure to humanistic ideas, deeper concepts of theory of mind, and new technologies that make slavery less competitive overall.

I'm glad to throw around ideas about foreign policy, but as Afores and others have pointed out, it's more an abstract game concept and it simply serves a role. I can live happily with that.

I am curious as to what might be done for mercantile, if anything? In classic AND I used to use it with a large empire also - especially before I had trade-across-oceans. Now between slavery and its inherent penalties, it hasn't ever been an appealing option for me so far.

 

[Rezca]

Mercantile I often used in Always War games, because you'd never have any trade with other nations anyway so it never penalized you. Even then, Free Market and others still just seemed... Better.

In AND that hasn't changed. It's still a lackluster civic and the only real benefit I tend to get from it is the Privateers it offers - if I'm not running Monarchy for whatever reason.


Divine Cult was also one of the 'weaker' civics for a good long time, and it's just become viable to use now with the relief it offers from Overcrowding, so Mercantile can probably be patched up as well. If it was strongest when you didn't have foreign connections, that might be its niche to fill - though right now, connections or no, every other civic just kinda feels superior to it no matter what the situation.

 

[<Nexus>]

I agree slavery is very strong, I rarely switch out of it until the industrial era. It used to be quite a dilemma when to switch into it, when happiness is generally the critical issue in your empire. However with the current system where there is no pop unhappiness until size 4 it is less of an issue, as most of my cities will be happy at size 1 with slavery and will not be happy at size 4 without slavery it does not come at much of a cost.

When it comes to switching out slavery has a production and gold advantage over the other options (the gold multiplier is unrivalled, and to get the production multiplier of guilds you need to build the guild hall), and comes with happiness and stability penalties. Once you have monarchy the main solution to happiness and stability problems is troops, and the 2 impediments to troops is production but mostly gold.

I guess what I am saying is that slavery has an inbuilt solution to its problems, and so is rarely a bad choice.

I think the whole civic mechanism could use some enhancement, like what VIP has civics blocking other civics.
A few examples for civics that should be mutually exclusive:
Church (Welfare) - Atheism
Slavery/Intolerant - Liberal/Communalism
some economic civics - some foreign policy civics

 

[Afforess]

I get that this is your mod, and I'm just a dude on the 'net pontificating my wishes and frustrations which mean zip since I'm not contributing to the project.

That said, these words you're using - have well-established meanings:

I have to agree with Mordachai, Afforess. It sounds like you've got those two switched.

You are using the economics definitions. I used foreign policy definitions. Words have different meanings in different contexts, and these are foreign policy civics, after all.

I think the whole civic mechanism could use some enhancement, like what VIP has civics blocking other civics.
A few examples for civics that should be mutually exclusive:
Church (Welfare) - Atheism
Slavery/Intolerant - Liberal/Communalism
some economic civics - some foreign policy civics

I would rather not have that. Civic restrictions or requirements on other civics increases the complexity of the game, and the mod significantly.

 

[Castfinder]

Yeah, the Civics needs to be re-balanced, resigned or something....

You know I have only play this mod only a few times. From the start, I noticed one major thing: Civics are almost useless for good chunk of the game. They have no real no real impact especially in the beginning of game, expect maybe slavery.
Its stupid to say we are trying to keep things as historically as possible cause it will never be. It's a game . Your goal as a modder and a fan is to make it balanced, fair, and intuitively dynamic as possible. If slavery has too much significance then boost another civic to make it as a counter or an alternative. Give the player some real choice...
Another "glaring problem" is the fact that you have to "research" Civics to use them in the first place. I'm a noob in this game...can someone please explain me why?? Now let's talk about historical accuracy: did civilizations have to "research" slavery to implement it in society....?

Anyway, pushing this mod to the limits would require some real efforts and commitment which is hard to come by.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

Yeah, the Civics needs to be re-balanced, resigned or something....

You know I have only play this mod only a few times. From the start, I noticed one major thing: Civics are almost useless for good chunk of the game. They have no real no real impact especially in the beginning of game, expect maybe slavery.
Its stupid to say we are trying to keep things as historically as possible cause it will never be. It's a game . Your goal as a modder and a fan is to make it balanced, fair, and intuitively dynamic as possible. If slavery has too much significance then boost another civic to make it as a counter or an alternative. Give the player some real choice...
Another "glaring problem" is the fact that you have to "research" Civics to use them in the first place. I'm a noob in this game...can someone please explain me why?? Now let's talk about historical accuracy: did civilizations have to "research" slavery to implement it in society....?

Anyway, pushing this mod to the limits would require some real efforts and commitment which is hard to come by.

So, you're entitled to your opinion, but the implication on lack of effort (whether intended or not) is unnecessary. The mod team has worked very hard to create what is probably one of the largest and best balanced mods for Civ4. Of course, you're welcome to dislike aspects of it, but know the difference between expressing your preferences and criticizing the work ethic of the modders.

Anyway, researching techs to gain access to civics is a main feature of cvi4, not just this mod. Unlocking all civics from the start would certainly make for some interesting gameplay. The same could be said of all features, such as units and building. In that case, however, you would be rendering useless a major aspect of the game: research. More choice also does not automatically make for a more fun experience. Part of the fun of strategy games like Civilization is the challenge of working within the constraints of the game mechanics. For the Civ series those constraints tend to be pseudo-historical. That said, there are some options that allow you to play with this. You can start in a later era to have more civics unlocked. Or, if you prefer, you can use world builder to give yourself and/or the AI techs. There's also the option of editing the xml files for civics to remove the tech prerequisites. I suggest you play around with these options if you're looking for a more flexible game.

Just as a final point, I very much disagree that civics are useless for any large portion of the game. Certainly they are less important at the very beginning before you've unlocked many options, but they quickly become very important to your play style. If you've only played a few times then it's possible you haven't yet gotten a feel for what civics can do for you. They're balanced so that different combinations work for different strategies and situations. Unless you try many different strategies over several games, it's likely that some civics won't ever appeal to you. So play around, see what works for you, and ultimately, do what makes your games the most fun for you. Good luck!

 

[Castfinder]

So, you're entitled to your opinion, but the implication on lack of effort (whether intended or not) is unnecessary. The mod team has worked very hard to create what is probably one of the largest and best balanced mods for Civ4. Of course, you're welcome to dislike aspects of it, but know the difference between expressing your preferences and criticizing the work ethic of the modders.

Anyway, researching techs to gain access to civics is a main feature of cvi4, not just this mod. Unlocking all civics from the start would certainly make for some interesting gameplay. The same could be said of all features, such as units and building. In that case, however, you would be rendering useless a major aspect of the game: research. More choice also does not automatically make for a more fun experience. Part of the fun of strategy games like Civilization is the challenge of working within the constraints of the game mechanics. For the Civ series those constraints tend to be pseudo-historical. That said, there are some options that allow you to play with this. You can start in a later era to have more civics unlocked. Or, if you prefer, you can use world builder to give yourself and/or the AI techs. There's also the option of editing the xml files for civics to remove the tech prerequisites. I suggest you play around with these options if you're looking for a more flexible game.

Just as a final point, I very much disagree that civics are useless for any large portion of the game. Certainly they are less important at the very beginning before you've unlocked many options, but they quickly become very important to your play style. If you've only played a few times then it's possible you haven't yet gotten a feel for what civics can do for you. They're balanced so that different combinations work for different strategies and situations. Unless you try many different strategies over several games, it's likely that some civics won't ever appeal to you. So play around, see what works for you, and ultimately, do what makes your games the most fun for you. Good luck!

No, I dont want all civics to be unlocked at the start of the game as that would not be feasible with the "rise from the ashes to greatness" theme of the game. Civics should have a separate progression not depending entirely on research. The fact is everything, I mean everything in the game depends on research which is a major design flaw for a civilization game. Veterans keep saying civ 4 is better but I dont see it due to reasons like that...

Anyway, I acknowledged the efforts of the modders so far but this game could be much more greater which is why I lament about it

 

[Afforess]

Yeah, the Civics needs to be re-balanced, resigned or something....

You know I have only play this mod only a few times. From the start, I noticed one major thing: Civics are almost useless for good chunk of the game. They have no real no real impact especially in the beginning of game, expect maybe slavery.
Its stupid to say we are trying to keep things as historically as possible cause it will never be. It's a game . Your goal as a modder and a fan is to make it balanced, fair, and intuitively dynamic as possible. If slavery has too much significance then boost another civic to make it as a counter or an alternative. Give the player some real choice...
Another "glaring problem" is the fact that you have to "research" Civics to use them in the first place. I'm a noob in this game...can someone please explain me why?? Now let's talk about historical accuracy: did civilizations have to "research" slavery to implement it in society....?

Anyway, pushing this mod to the limits would require some real efforts and commitment which is hard to come by.

You seem to have complaints about core features of this mod, which suggests it is not for you. I think you will have a much easier time looking elsewhere for a different mod than trying to fight a hopeless battle against the ocean tides.

 

[Caymon]

I've been customizing the XML for various civics to make it more balanced in my games.

Slavery:
I remove the production and commerce bonuses. You have to build the slave market to get anything out of it. But it allows you to escape the -33% penalties of Barter.
I also remove the free slave specialist for the Slave Market. It is not overpowered any more. Also, I add +.25 unhappiness per 1 population. It really gets to be a challenge managing slaves when cities get bigger - a good thing for gameplay.
Does coinage look a little more desirable now?!

Monarchy:
I remove the +1 happiness per military unit. It is so easy to spam military units in AND. But given the new unhappiness mechanics introduced (distance from capital, etc.), I nerf the population from overcrowding to +20% (instead of +50%). Now monarchy may or may not be better than despotism. You essentially sacrifice some happiness for cheaper maintenance. I also nerf the military unit (archers, noble nights, etc.) production bonuses to +15%.
I also remove the no unhappiness in capital.

Divine Cult:
Due to decreased unhappiness from overcrowding, I do the same with Divine Cult. (-20% from population overcrowding instead of -50%)

Republic:
Since Republic is typically meant for smaller civs, I add no unhappiness in capital. That way smaller civs can go tall. It was harder before, since they already have limited resources due to limited land area.

I experiment all the time, but these changes I really like and I think bring more balance into the game.

If you guys like, I can post the XML file of my changes so you can try it.

 

[<Nexus>]

I've been customizing the XML for various civics to make it more balanced in my games.

Slavery:
I remove the production and commerce bonuses. You have to build the slave market to get anything out of it. But it allows you to escape the -33% penalties of Barter.
I also remove the free slave specialist for the Slave Market. It is not overpowered any more. Also, I add +.25 unhappiness per 1 population. It really gets to be a challenge managing slaves when cities get bigger - a good thing for gameplay.
Does coinage look a little more desirable now?!

That doesn't make much sense IMO. The 0.25 unhappiness/pop doesn't mean that 1/4 of your population is slaves. Actually your rich citizens would be rather for having free labor to serve all their desires. I suggest to change the penalty for slave specialist instead, so the greater part of your city is enslaved, the more restless they are.
But I agree that moving the bonuses from the civic to its building does make sense. I did the same for my own modmod.

Monarchy:
I remove the +1 happiness per military unit. It is so easy to spam military units in AND. But given the new unhappiness mechanics introduced (distance from capital, etc.), I nerf the population from overcrowding to +20% (instead of +50%). Now monarchy may or may not be better than despotism. You essentially sacrifice some happiness for cheaper maintenance. I also nerf the military unit (archers, noble nights, etc.) production bonuses to +15%.
I also remove the no unhappiness in capital.

+1 /military: I never understood that. Why? It makes more sense for Junta where the military presence is there to "promote peace and security".
But I disagree on removing the always in capital. The presence of the ruler always had a strong influence.

Republic:
Since Republic is typically meant for smaller civs, I add no unhappiness in capital. That way smaller civs can go tall. It was harder before, since they already have limited resources due to limited land area.

Instead of the no unhappiness in capital I suggest to decrease the population from overcrowding (-20 maybe?), that would affect not only your capital but all your cities.

 

[Mordachai]

Very cool ideas.
Maybe Monarchy should + ? to palace...

The 1/4 might be steep for unhappiness - might be fine. Tying it to actual slave specialists could be good too. Worth playing around with those settings (and would the AI be able to handle it?)

Love the no unhappiness in capital with republic. Makes sense in terms of encouraging small empire. Could just jack the + for first 5 cities even higher.

I'd certainly give a game a try with your settings. Why not?!

 

[Afforess]

+1 /military: I never understood that. Why? It makes more sense for Junta where the military presence is there to "promote peace and security".

The +1 from military represents the ability of the monarchy to enforce rule through military force. No other form of government is as legitimized by the military except Monarchy. (Dictators use a cult of personality, not purely military force).

I don't really agree with any of Cayman's changes, but I suppose that is the essence of modding is about. I don't plan on including any of the changes in the official mod, but to each their own.

Perhaps Cayman should start a mod-mod for custom civic changes?

 

[Mordachai]

I imagine you need a pretty thick skin modding. Everyone has opinions - everyone has criticisms, and nothing generates a perfect game every time - there's always something else to experiment with.

I've modded a few things myself - nothing remotely as extensively as you have - but I feel for you constantly seeing others saying "I know what's best!"



Thanks for a great mod!

 

[Caymon]

I've experimented with mod modding, though I'm not sure how to make it so it is stand alone instead of modifying the core xml files. I copy over the schemas and the relevant Civic/BuildingInfo code. But when I zero a value it ends up still being the value it was originally. Not sure how to get around this. I would love to be able to add another new perspective to AND for people who want it.

Actually, I like the idea of the military presence creating happiness in monarchy. The historical approach is good, but implementation in game play just doesn't feel balanced. Just stick a bunch of military units in your cities and never have to worry about happiness! Not quite conductive to interesting game play from the happiness perspective in my opinion.
If there was a way to cap the amount of happiness from military units I'm all for that. Perhaps also making it so there is 0.5 happiness per unit instead of 1, but I tried that and it didn't work.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Upkeep for Military should be higher, as has been mentioned, its TOO EASY to spam Military units, for minimal cost.

Also, they should have a reduced happiness effect, as the general population is discontented with having to provide GDP for "Defence" spending, with no welfare benefit

0.5 happy per military unit, with cost to raise higher.

 

[<Nexus>]

The +1 from military represents the ability of the monarchy to enforce rule through military force.

That is rather Junta. Don't know how it would work in AND2, since Junta is designed to be a poor choice...
But in my modmod Junta is no longer the starting civic and will be useful in later eras too.

No other form of government is as legitimized by the military except Monarchy. (Dictators use a cult of personality, not purely military force).

I rather disagree on that. The core reasoning is birthright: I am a king because my father was a king, whose father also was a king, whose father...
I'm just thinking of modern England: how much effect does military presence have there? Sure it is also a good question what civic is Great Britain running: Monarchy, Republic or Democracy?

I don't really agree with any of Cayman's changes, but I suppose that is the essence of modding is about. I don't plan on including any of the changes in the official mod, but to each their own.

Of course not
But as I am working on a modmod "reforming" the civics system, I am very happy too hear other opinions.

I've experimented with mod modding, though I'm not sure how to make it so it is stand alone instead of modifying the core xml files. I copy over the schemas and the relevant Civic/BuildingInfo code. But when I zero a value it ends up still being the value it was originally. Not sure how to get around this. I would love to be able to add another new perspective to AND for people who want it.

You need to use bForceOverwrite

<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
			<Type>CIVIC_CHIEFDOM</Type>
			<bForceOverwrite>1</bForceOverwrite>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_CHIEFDOM</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_CHIEFDOM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_CHIEFDOM_STRATEGY</Strategy>

 

[Arakhor]

The UK is running a parliamentary democracy.

 

[Mordachai]

...with a monarchical figurehead "for the feels"