Civics Improvements Suggestions

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Here's something I just came across. The Mercantilism civic uses a tag for <iSharedCivicTradeRouteModifier>. Its effect is supposed to be -25 trade income from nations with same civic.

Does this tag even do anything any more, now that trade routes have been replaced by connectedness? I tried looking through the sources files and I could only find references in the CvInfos files. My guess is that this was taken out of the source files along with everything else that depended on trade routes. If this is true, then it's a bullet point we don't need.

I can check, I put it on my to do list.

Edit: I think it's still being used:

int CvCity::totalTradeModifier(CvCity* pOtherCity) const
{
	int iModifier = 100;

	iModifier += getTradeRouteModifier();

	iModifier += getPopulationTradeModifier();
	
/************************************************************************************************/
/* Afforess	                  Start		 03/8/10                                                */
/*                                                                                              */
/*                                                                                              */
/************************************************************************************************/
	iModifier += GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getTradeModifier();
/************************************************************************************************/
/* Afforess	                     END                                                            */
/************************************************************************************************/

	if (isConnectedToCapital())
	{
		iModifier += GC.getDefineINT("CAPITAL_TRADE_MODIFIER");
	}

	if (NULL != pOtherCity)
	{
		if (area() != pOtherCity->area())
		{
			iModifier += GC.getDefineINT("OVERSEAS_TRADE_MODIFIER");
		}

		if (getTeam() != pOtherCity->getTeam())
		{
			iModifier += getForeignTradeRouteModifier();
/************************************************************************************************/
/* Afforess	                  Start		 3/8/09                                                 */
/*                                                                                              */
/*                                                                                              */
/************************************************************************************************/
			iModifier += GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getForeignTradeRouteModifier();
			iModifier += GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getForeignTradeModifier();
			CvPlayer &kOtherPlayer = GET_PLAYER(pOtherCity->getOwnerINLINE());
			CvPlayer &kPlayer = GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE());
			for (int iI = 0; iI < GC.getNumCivicOptionInfos(); iI++)
			{
				if (kPlayer.getCivics((CivicOptionTypes)iI) == kOtherPlayer.getCivics((CivicOptionTypes)iI))
				{
					iModifier += GC.getCivicInfo(kPlayer.getCivics((CivicOptionTypes)iI)).getSharedCivicTradeRouteModifier();
				}
			}
/************************************************************************************************/
/* Afforess	                     END                                                            */
/************************************************************************************************/	
			iModifier += getPeaceTradeModifier(pOtherCity->getTeam());
		}
	}

	return iModifier;
}

I need to check the revision where Trade Routes have been removed but I think this modifier applies to the trade created by connectedness too.

Edit2: ok, it's probably not being used. totalTradeModifier is used inside a loop for Trade Routes which is never being passed because number of trade routes is set to 0.

 

[nionios]

More cuts sound great; less civic choices means less frustration over balancing each and every one of them.

I agree.Also I find a bit confusing that some civics of different categories affect same aspects of the game.I believe each category should be focused on specific aspects.

 

[Vokarya]

I agree.Also I find a bit confusing that some civics of different categories affect same aspects of the game.I believe each category should be focused on specific aspects.

I agree too; that's why I am trying to cut some of the specific effects. There are only so many categories to go around, though. Some categories also overlap; the Government category defines your form of government but the Rule category defines who really has the power (who is the upper class).

 

[Vokarya]

I made some more notes on bullet points I think we can cut.

Banditry: This has +25% maintenance from city distance and +25% maintenance from number of cities that I think we can cut. I think we should try to keep the starter civics to as few bullet points as possible. A negative or two to prod you out of the starter civics would work, but not more than that. Banditry still has +100% maintenance for distant units. This will get you to change your Military civic.

Folklore: This has +5% national stability (religious freedom) that I don't think helps much. Like Banditry, this is a starter civic. If this civic is going to have positives, it should be keyed towards things you do BEFORE you get a religion. Once a religion spreads to your lands, you should want to change civics to one that allows a state religion.

Intolerant: This civic has way too many bullet points. I think we should start by removing the +25% maintenance for overseas cities and the Causes your civilization to have Fixed Borders. Also, I think we should reduce the 1.25 gold from Priest to a round 1. The .25 just looks silly.

Mercantile: This has +1 happiness in largest cities that I don't think is necessary or appropriate to an economic civic. Mercantile might be worth cutting down even further and restoring the +1 free specialist that Mercantilism has in BTS.

M.A.D.: This is both the civic of nuclear weaponry (allows Warhead Factory, +50% construction of Missile units, allows MAD targeting) but also mass-produced units (+50% unit production, can draft). I think it should probably be the nuclear civic and that's all. We could make MAD +100% Missile production. This covers all nuclear units except the A-Bomb, which by the time MAD comes around, is obsolete and replaced by the Tactical Nuke.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

My only doubt is about Intolerant and removing Fixed Borders from it.

 

[Arakhor]

I agree. I think that Intolerant nations should definitely have fixed borders. The rest looks sensible.

 

[Vokarya]

OK. I was just thinking Intolerant had too many bullet points. I'll leave the fixed borders.

 

[Vokarya]

I noticed a couple of things about Monarchy that I don't think are working very well.

First, Monarchy has a higher RevIndex increase than Despotism when switching to it. Either they should be switched or I think Monarchy could stand to be neutral.

Second, I really feel that the +50% extra unhappiness from overcrowding is pushing me out of Monarchy and into Republic too fast. This is despite having a very big empire, which is not what we are trying to push. I'm willing to test it some more, but I am pretty convinced that if we want Monarchy to be viable in the later eras (Medieval-Renaissance), it can't increase unhappiness that way.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

But you get a huge happiness bonus for military units. If we do it your way, we should probably cap happiness from military units.

 

[Vokarya]

But you get a huge happiness bonus for military units. If we do it your way, we should probably cap happiness from military units.

I generally use 4-6 units for garrison duty. I was still having unhappiness problems.

I think this is a subject for field testing. Maybe there is something that I am not aware of.

I don't have that many things left on my to-do list, but it's still a good-sized list. Once I get done, I want to get down to fine-tuning the minor concepts.

 

[Vokarya]

Back to Public Works for a bit. I had an idea. What if Public Works didn't grant any health at all? Most of the Welfare civics grant some level of health and this would be a good way to differentiate Public Works. You would have to rely on health from buildings and resources. Instead, Public Works would increase the speed of getting buildings built and improvements growing. This would be a way to use the improvement growth tag.

I'd also like to avoid micro-effects where possible. Bonuses for building or improving only one specific kind of thing don't usually feel right to me. I'd prefer boosting a larger field; thus sweeping away Public Works' bonuses to specific buildings in favor of an overall building bonus.

This is what I am looking at for the total effects of Public Works:

• (Keep) +25% Worker Speed
• (Add) +25% Improvement Growth
• (Add) +25% production all cities, -25% military unit production all cities
• (Keep, or possibly delete) +1 happiness in X largest cities (this varies by world size, like Representation in BTS)
• (Keep) Revolution effects: 30 stability for change, 1 local stability, 1 national stability

This is what would be deleted:

• +1 health all cities
• +1 health from Aqueduct/Water Treatment Plant, Bath House
• +50% production of Sewer System/Water Treatment Plant/Waste Digester, Public Transportation/Personal Rapid Train

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Back to Public Works for a bit. I had an idea. What if Public Works didn't grant any health at all? Most of the Welfare civics grant some level of health and this would be a good way to differentiate Public Works. You would have to rely on health from buildings and resources. Instead, Public Works would increase the speed of getting buildings built and improvements growing. This would be a way to use the improvement growth tag.

I'd also like to avoid micro-effects where possible. Bonuses for building or improving only one specific kind of thing don't usually feel right to me. I'd prefer boosting a larger field; thus sweeping away Public Works' bonuses to specific buildings in favor of an overall building bonus.

This is what I am looking at for the total effects of Public Works:

• (Keep) +25% Worker Speed
• (Add) +25% Improvement Growth
• (Add) +25% production all cities, -25% military unit production all cities
• (Keep, or possibly delete) +1 happiness in X largest cities (this varies by world size, like Representation in BTS)
• (Keep) Revolution effects: 30 stability for change, 1 local stability, 1 national stability

This is what would be deleted:

• +1 health all cities
• +1 health from Aqueduct/Water Treatment Plant, Bath House
• +50% production of Sewer System/Water Treatment Plant/Waste Digester, Public Transportation/Personal Rapid Train

Looks good

 

[Arakhor]

That seems like a very sensible idea. It could even be a contender for a later-game civic too.

 

[aggri1]

Regarding the proposed "+25% production all cities, -25% military unit production all cities": I realise that this is not quite the same as "+25% building production", but the latter is simpler and achieves most of the same effect - excepting of course the building of workers and such. I prefer simple effects, and RoM AND already has so many complicated things with mixed effects, that any opportunity to simplify without "dumbing down" is welcome as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers, A.

 

[Vokarya]

Regarding the proposed "+25% production all cities, -25% military unit production all cities": I realise that this is not quite the same as "+25% building production", but the latter is simpler and achieves most of the same effect - excepting of course the building of workers and such. I prefer simple effects, and RoM AND already has so many complicated things with mixed effects, that any opportunity to simplify without "dumbing down" is welcome as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers, A.

If I could, I would. That is not directly supported in the XML. Buildings that provide +X% building production are actually created by combining +X% production with -X% unit production. The game text manager can interpret this combination for buildings but not for civics.

I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying that it is not currently supported at the level that I can program. Having just building production be a tag for civics would be useful, not only for Public Works but also for Mobilization as well (giving it a very large penalty for building production, rather than the current large production penalty and military production bonus).

 

[Vokarya]

No one has objected to my proposal to remove the Patrician civic. If we remove the civic, then I think we can shuffle the civic buildings around a little.

• Villa gets shared between Nobility and Bourgeois.
• Manor goes from Nobility to Vassalage (the Military civic).
• Shanty Town goes from Vassalage to Caste and moves techs to City Planning.

This will give Caste a civic building, but I don't want it showing up too early.

 

[Vokarya]

So here's one more thing. Post-Scarcity allows unlimited Engineer specialists. I think we should extend it to unlimited Artists and Scientists as well. The point of Post-Scarcity is that everyone's needs are met, so they are free to do whatever they really want. I don't think any of the other specialist types are appropriate here.

 

[Arakhor]

The Post-Scarcity idea sounds sensible. As for Nobility/Patrician/Senate, I think it's a shame that we'd be losing a civic choice, but there does appear to be significant overlap, yes.

 

[<Nexus>]

The Post-Scarcity idea sounds sensible. As for Nobility/Patrician/Senate, I think it's a shame that we'd be losing a civic choice, but there does appear to be significant overlap, yes.

For a long time I also wanted to cut it but it's not that easy with modules. Finally I had an idea for it but now it is cut from the main mod

This is what I came up for it:

• Increased capital gold bonus to +20%
• Added +20% production in capital
• Added +20% distance to palace and number of cities maintenance

I like to make civics useful in different conditions. The above would make it more useful for small civs.

 

[Vokarya]

The Post-Scarcity idea sounds sensible. As for Nobility/Patrician/Senate, I think it's a shame that we'd be losing a civic choice, but there does appear to be significant overlap, yes.

The Nobility/Patrician/Senate concepts are just too overlapping to be good. For me, having Nobility and Patrician appear at the same tech and in the same category without being paired opposites (like Interventionism vs. Protectionism, both at Mercantilism) is a big red flag. Nobility as a subordinate oligarchy and Senate as a more-independent oligarchy work for me. Patrician feels like it is just a decadent oligarchy (extra gold in Capital, extra gold from Merchant/Bazaar/Market).

I don't mind having lots of civic choices, but they need to be choices that have real differences. Patrician doesn't do that.