Civics Improvements Suggestions
- Thread starter os79
- Start date
I'm still thinking about Junta. Junta is the one starter civic that still has a benefit I'd like to remove; the +1 happy from Barracks and Walls/High Walls. But I'm afraid with the current happiness balance, it isn't possible without strangling cities at very small sizes. Is there anything we could do that would work? I'm reluctant to change the starting happiness values. Could we scale down unhappiness from distance a little?
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
In my personal edits I have the happiness bonuses kept and extended into Garrisons onward, but added a small War Weariness penalty. "A military council that oversees national affairs"... I like thinking that something like this could still persist beyond the early eras, if only for roleplay purposes.
Some of the civics I feel should be viable for longer periods of time - except for when civics like Post Scarcity come in and literally obsolete everything else of course. Sometimes I actually feel like Junta should be replaced with something else for the "Starter Civic" since a militaristic ruling class is something that could still be an effective thing even after the archaic days (I like looking at Amestris from 'Fullmetal Alchemist' as an example of this)
I'm not particularly happy with Junta as the name of the first rule civic either, but I can't come up with anything better than "Tradition", and that's been pointed out as overly broad. I really dislike "Patriarchy" for the first civic, so that's not going to happen.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Wasn't "Barbarism" one of the initial civics in the base game? Or was that not a Rule-civic?
Barbarism is a possibility. It was a "Legal" civic in BTS, but that category was such a hodge-podge of concepts. I don't see much reason for making Bureaucracy, Nationhood, and Free Speech mutually exclusive.
If we do make the beginning civic Barbarism, do we keep Junta as a separate civic? I think a real junta requires a standing army so it would have to be post-Renaissance, but that might be overlapping with Single Party too much.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
I like the idea of a nation where the ruling class is essentially the military itself, and while Single Party is similar I think they're different enough in concept to exist together. Single Party doesn't necessarily mean that it's the military that's calling all the shots, just that one group is holding all the power... Which may or may not be the military. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant by overlapping with it ^^;
I was thinking that Single Party's current effects: increased production, decreased culture, and fixed borders would also carry over to a future Junta civic. But there may be something we can distinguish there.
I came up with an idea regarding Junta.
What do you think of giving back Gold and Silver's +1 happiness in exchange for removing all of Junta's happiness boosts? (Just a flat +1 per resource; I don't think we need to give back Forge's bonus. Forge is good enough by itself.)
This would remove any reason to stay in Junta longer than necessary (since it doesn't have any other abilities) and give a longer-term happiness bonus that you have to work a little harder to get, because in order to get happiness from Gold or Silver, you have to claim the tile and build a mine on it or trade something else to another civ to get it. I don't think it would be easy to get both early on, and I think we could justify removing another happiness bonus or two from civics. Senate, Democracy, and Federation all have happiness bonuses and I'm not sure they are so essential to have. In regular BTS, Universal Suffrage does not give happiness and Representation only gives happiness to your largest cities.
What do you think of giving back Gold and Silver's +1 happiness in exchange for removing all of Junta's happiness boosts? (Just a flat +1 per resource; I don't think we need to give back Forge's bonus. Forge is good enough by itself.)
This would remove any reason to stay in Junta longer than necessary (since it doesn't have any other abilities) and give a longer-term happiness bonus that you have to work a little harder to get, because in order to get happiness from Gold or Silver, you have to claim the tile and build a mine on it or trade something else to another civ to get it. I don't think it would be easy to get both early on, and I think we could justify removing another happiness bonus or two from civics. Senate, Democracy, and Federation all have happiness bonuses and I'm not sure they are so essential to have. In regular BTS, Universal Suffrage does not give happiness and Representation only gives happiness to your largest cities.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Those happiness bonuses don't sound all that necessary either, and I'm not fully sure why a barracks present would make people happy.... Unless they were supportive of the military being the ruling class, so seeing military buildings around would be a 'good thing' to them. I think that's different than the (rarely seen) unhappiness penalty "We demand military protection!" so I suppose really isn't needed. I could understand a production boost though, but happiness not as much.
Unlike concepts such as Barbarism, Banditry, and Chiefdom... I think that Junta could have the potential to be viable long after the archaic - so I wouldn't want to see it driven into the ground either xD
Regular BTS was somewhat like that to an extent, where except for the one that 'outlaws' slavery most civics were viable at any given time. This isn't BTS though so...
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I just think Junta is the wrong name for this civic concept at this particular point. I think this civic is supposed to be "rule by being the strongest single person in a small group", rather than "rule with an organized army loyal to you personally", which is what I think Junta should be. So I'm agreeing that Barbarism is a better name at this point.
But what I want is for there to be some way to withstand the extra unhappiness from overcrowding and from distance early in the game, so that's why I think we need just a little more happiness before I take away the almost-guaranteed happiness from what is currently Junta.
But what I want is for there to be some way to withstand the extra unhappiness from overcrowding and from distance early in the game, so that's why I think we need just a little more happiness before I take away the almost-guaranteed happiness from what is currently Junta.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I don't like it.It's not only "unrealistic" but doesn't even guarantee to solve anything (there may be no gold/silver nearby) or even cause more trouble in the later game.
How about a new building or civic building that goes obsolete early?
Barbarism doesn't sound very good to me. How about Strongman? It's also present in C2C.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
It's not only "unrealistic" but doesn't even guarantee to solve anything (there may be no gold/silver nearby) or even cause more trouble in the later game.
How about a new building or civic building that goes obsolete early?
Barbarism doesn't sound very good to me. How about Strongman? It's also present in C2C.
Only thing that makes me think the happiness bonus returning would be a bad thing is that happiness is still abundant in the mid game onwards, so unless that happiness bonus obsoletes at some point, it'd cause more harm than good in the long run. Gold and silver were highly valued in ancient times, so a happiness bonus would make sense, and having it be valued less for happiness and more for financial reasons in the late renessance (Or however you spell that...) onwards would be just fine IMO.
If it's still too 'unrealistic' for you, you can always just mod it out in your modmod - assuming that's the path we take with these resources that is
There's dozens of little changes I've made to my own, like re-ading Jungle unhealthiness and such xD
Barbarism or Strongman, either's good. I'm leaning towards Barbarism myself, but I don't really have any strong opinions for either.
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<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
I just said the same.
It's not a matter of "what I can" but "what I think"
I'm a bit sleepy right now so I apologize xD
I'm not fully in agreement about it not being 'realistic' though since gold and silver seemed like a pretty damn large deal for people in ancient times, took a lot of pride in having a lot of it so a happiness bonus doesn't seem all that out of place - though it depends on how you want to look at it I guess. It could be added just as easily as it could be avoided. What's more important IMO is how it'd affect the gameplay rather than how 'real' it is - and like we've both said, it might cause more problems in the long term, which is why I suggested the happiness obsoleting at some point.
Actually.... Can a happiness bonus obsolete on its own? The only way I know of would be to make the resource obsolete, which wouldn't make sense for Gold and Silver. Unless as you suggested, there was a building that utilized just those resources (and maybe Gems too...?) but obsoleted somewhere in the late to post medieval. Enough time to make use of them and make the building worth its cost.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Which goes to the ruling class, but not ALL your citizens. Cow and other food provide
, but livestock is accessible for all. Gold... not so...Of course not
I don't remember what Idol Shrine does right now, but it could provide +1
with gold and silver (and gems). And Idol does go obsolete...
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Which goes to the ruling class, but not ALL your citizens. Cow and other food provide
Of course not
I don't remember what Idol Shrine does right now, but it could provide +1
I 'unno, there's civilizations that seemed to be pretty rich, and it wasn't just the ruling class. A lot of Happiness bonuses on resources could be argued for/against depending on a number of factors, but right now I just feel that gameplay should be the defining factor, and realism a minor one. Subnautica for example, Nitrogen Narcosis would be an important realism factor when diving outside your sub, but that'd negatively affect the gameplay for a lot of people (Though I'd still love to see a watered down version of it for Survival, and a fully implemented version for Hardcore, but that's off-topic here~) Jungles providing unhealthiness wasn't terribly realistic, it was just there to make jungles more an obstacle. Of course that's not the best of ideas to be honest, but I re-added it personally just because I had grown so accustomed to it being there ^^;
Again, if the happiness is gonna come from these two resources it shouldn't last long. Your suggestion of one of the Shrines or something providing the bonus seems like a good one. That way it's provided, but doesn't last for very long - long enough to be useful, not long enough to unbalance things.
Actually, there is something else that I was planning that I think will work without having to add any extra happiness from resources. This is to remove Monarchy's 1 unhappy/25% tax rate. This will save 1-2 unhappiness in the Classical Era when you need it, as opposed to the Ancient Era where you don't need it as much.
I wasn't quite finished cutting Monarchy down in terms of bullet points when I took away military happiness/overcrowding unhappiness. I split up Monarchy into the essential points, the neutral points, and the points that can be cut.
The really important effects:
I wasn't quite finished cutting Monarchy down in terms of bullet points when I took away military happiness/overcrowding unhappiness. I split up Monarchy into the essential points, the neutral points, and the points that can be cut.
The really important effects:
- -50% maintenance from number of cities.
- -50% maintenance from distance to Palace. Monarchy is supposed to be the civic of big empires.
- Fixed Borders. We've established that authoritarian civics are the ones to get fixed borders.
- Unlimited Noble specialists. The Nobility civic offers the same effects, but I'm willing to let both civics have this. Noble is not quite as good as any other specialist type: it combines 2/3 of a Merchant (Noble gives +2 gold, Merchant gives +3) with 1/4 of an Artist (Noble gives +1 culture, Artist gives +4). 0.67+0.25 = 0.92, slightly worse than 1 other specialist, but not enough to be really problematic.
- +1 relations with other civics running Monarchy. I'm not sure why Monarchy gets singled out for this benefit.
- No unhappiness in capital. This is a nice effect, but I find that the capital is almost always the biggest city and able to afford to build the most happiness-increasing buildings. So it's not what I would call essential.
- +1 gold from Walls, High Walls, Castle. I want to stop gold from snowballing. Nobility also gives this benefit, and I don't think it should double up.
- +50% production of Walls, High Walls, Castle. I think this overlaps too much with Feudal, and I think this particular effect can stay with Feudal. Feudal is the decentralized, cities-on-their-own civic.
- +1 unhappy/25% tax rate. First of all, I associate tax rate unhappiness with democratic civics (Liberal, President) that encourage open dissent. Second, without military happiness, there is less need for unhappiness as a counterweight.
I think your ideas are great. I think however you are slightly underestimating the power of nobles. Because they produce "generic" GPP they can be very useful in getting great people you want. For example if you have a religion and want the shrine you can build one temple, assign one priest and set the rest of your specialists as nobles. This allows you to produce lots of priest GPP with only one priest slot (I think, I have only tried it a couple of times). Really does not change your analysis, but I thought I would point it out.
