Civics in FfH2

On the councils part, couldn't we just remove them as a civic choice and add in two world wonders for them similar to the Apostolic Palace in the vanilla game? Then the membership in them be based on having the required religions. If you want to ensure only belonging to one the other or neither base said membership on how many of your cities have each of the two religions. To belong to neither you either have to not have either religion or have an equal number of cities having each. Thus if all your cities have both you'd belong to neither.

Also, while on the subject of the councils, the voting needs a serious overhaul. After all it's rather ridiculous that there can be three members and it only takes one of them to vote yes for the resolution to pass. While such a vote could happen in vanilla it was based on a weighted system involving, iirc, the population and/or number of cities of each member. So perhaps giving each vote a similar weight and show this on the pop-up window would solve this problem. In fact if it was a straight up total population of your cities is how many votes you got them the results would make more sense. So if I had 10 cities and they all had a population of 20 then my vote would be counted as 200 votes. Thus the powerful civs would have more control over what does and doesn't pass than the weak civs. Then if you choose the defy option that effectively doubles your vote count for that voting cycle and makes you immune to the resolution's effects even if it passes, at least until the next voting cycle. With, of course, the unhappiness problem if you defy the resolution. This unhappiness amount could be based on your current alignment and what resolution is defied and in some cases it's a happiness boost to defy instead of an unhappiness penalty. for instance if my alignment is evil and I defy the resolution to band death magic, then my population is happy about that defiance since they want the death magic.

As for the other civics and their categories.
Religion sounds to me like a modification of the "Free Religion" civic from vanilla. So perhaps rename it to that Most of these cultural values are really about happiness and not culture so move them to a new Happiness Values section. In this category is only the civics that modify happiness. Each that boosts happiness should have some smaller unhappy aspect to it. Such that what boosts happiness under one might cause unhappiness in another, or some other cause for unhappiness that's fitting.

Happiness Values

Consumption has plus happiness and unhappiness as others suggested as well as the added happiness from the current settings of it, but adding unhappiness for each non-state religion temple (thus negating the happy bonus of having those extra temple). Remove the gold bonus. Since a gold bonus really goes into the labor civics where you're either boosting production, income or both at some other expense.

Pacifism add +1 happiness per specialist then it'd fit with the idea of boosting happiness in this category.

Free Religion it keeps the happiness bonus it has now, but adds an unhappiness for each building that increases the unhealthiness (such as forges). After all, in the medieval times you also went to the church for your health care needs. This also fits into the fantasy realm where the priests and clerics practiced healing magics. This civic could also change your alignment to neutral (it reverts to your default alignment when you change to a different civic). Of course, with these changes, all civs would need start with Nationhood selected instead of religion. Also, have no state religion when running this civic, since the whole point is the populace can worship whomever they want.

Social Order could be renamed to Justice. Add happiness bonus from the 3 types of palace as was suggested for the nationhood here instead, since those palaces are more about reducing maintenance (anti-corruption) and reducing the crime rate. It could be something like +3 happiness in the city they are built in, +2 happiness in adjacent cities and +1 in all other cities. Or even just a flat +1 happiness in this city and +1 happiness in all cities on this continent. So having all 3 on one continent would give +3 happiness to all cities (+4 in the city that built it since the +1 this city would stack with the all cities).

Nationhood Add +1 happiness for archery range, siege workshop, stables, palisade and walls to go with the one for training yard. Because these offer the populace a sense of pride in their nation and a sense of security from its governing body, thus making them happy.

Government

Crusade move to the Government section adding these two to its current settings +25% military building production (siege workshop, archery range, etc), and -25% non-military building production. After all when you're on a crusade so the whole point is to be at war and building troops to support the war effort. No other aspect of government matters right now.

Economy

Sacrifice the Weak move it over to this section because it's really more about money, food and healthiness/unhealthiness.

Guardian of Nature remove the happiness bonus to the grove and increase what it is on the grove itself. Having it from the grove and the civic when it requires running this civic to gain any happiness from the grove is redundant. Instead add a +1 health, +1 food and +1 commerce from forests, jungles and ancient forests. After all you're teaching the people how to live off the natural environment, thus they can find more food and sell off some of the new-found excess food. This would make this civic a better fit to this category.

On the grove itself make it +1 happiness just from having it (so it's worth building even if you don't run the civic), but +3 if you are also running this civic. After all the grove is basically like a park in the real world. That is a place where people go to relax and have fun.

Cultural Values

After moving several to a different category, we're left just two, Scholarship and Liberty. So let's add a couple more to flesh it out a little better and boost the culture bonuses so a cultural win is as easy as other types of wins.

Scholarship Remove the happiness and unhappiness effects. Add +1 culture per specialist.

Liberty to go with the Arcane Knowledge idea, boost the culture bonus to +180% or leave it at 100% and +1 culture to monument, theater and temples.

Arcane Knowledge +10% culture and +10% science for each type of mana you have. So if you manage to have at least one of each type that would give a total of +180% to culture and Science. The likelihood of actually getting all 18 types at once is rather low on all but huge maps and possibly large maps. In all likelihood you'd be close to a domination win if you owned enough nodes to max out this civic.

On a related, though off topic, note, I feel arcane units should all have a +1 affinity for the 2-3 mana types that civ's palace gives. Thus giving them all the first level spell of those magics for free. In the case of Shamans that can't be upgraded, they could also use a promotion to get the 2nd level of the magics they have an affinity for.

I can't think of a 4th for the cultural values. I haven't spent a lot of time on these ideas, so they might need some adjustment for balance.
 
Just a few cosmetic things.

I think Scholarship should be renamed to Knowledge. And Consumption, to Wealth.

Yes, I'm stealing ideas from alpha centaurii, which still has my favorite civic system to date, ever.
 
Just a few cosmetic things.

I think Scholarship should be renamed to Knowledge. And Consumption, to Wealth.

Yes, I'm stealing ideas from alpha centaurii, which still has my favorite civic system to date, ever.

Hmm, to go with my idea of an Arcane Knowledge how about renaming it to Mundane Knowledge instead of just Knowledge. Ya know, to better fit with the whole fantasy theme.
 
Mundane Knowledge is silly. there's nothing mundane about blowing things apart with a cannon. And more research leads to more arcane power, too.

Also, I'd like to add that your Arcane Knowledge idea is horribly overpowered.

Almost all civs start with 3 mana sources, which means that even with no additional mana, it would be just about the best possible civic choice. More research than Scholarship already. Once you start laying a few mana nodes, you'd never look at anything else.
 
Just commenting, no actual argument:

You bring up a lot of really good points, many of which I have considered but then realized that it may not be likely changes would be implemented. I usually find myself running the same civics every game (unless I'm playing a specific faction where certain civics are more in their flavor).

Personally I don't have an opinion one way or the other about the exactness/perfection of the civics in FFH2 because I play this mod for far more reasons than just the civics. I do, however, think this topic will bring up a lot of really good argument (or agreement), and I look forward to that more than any potential changes in the game.


PS: This was incredibly well written by the way
+1, except I would be pleased if this flowed into .41
 
Mundane Knowledge is silly. there's nothing mundane about blowing things apart with a cannon. And more research leads to more arcane power, too.

Also, I'd like to add that your Arcane Knowledge idea is horribly overpowered.

Almost all civs start with 3 mana sources, which means that even with no additional mana, it would be just about the best possible civic choice. More research than Scholarship already. Once you start laying a few mana nodes, you'd never look at anything else.
Numbers can be manipulated. If # is the number of unique mana you have, AK could provide a bonus of (#-2)x10% to research, meaning Kazad and Hippus would lose if they adopted it before upgrading nodes. Which sounds reasonable. It could also provide, instead of culture, bonus XP for newly-built arcade units, reasoning that your government would send each one on a "tour de realm" before assigning the wand and badge.
 
Social Order could be renamed to Justice. Add happiness bonus from the 3 types of palace as was suggested for the nationhood here instead, since those palaces are more about reducing maintenance (anti-corruption) and reducing the crime rate. It could be something like +3 happiness in the city they are built in, +2 happiness in adjacent cities and +1 in all other cities. Or even just a flat +1 happiness in this city and +1 happiness in all cities on this continent. So having all 3 on one continent would give +3 happiness to all cities (+4 in the city that built it since the +1 this city would stack with the all cities).
I don't know but I always considered Social Order as one of the best civics especially for Calabim as you could have really big cities. If you change it this way, you should at least introduce a new happiness value that's equivalent to the current way Social Order is implemented.
 
I would love to see the civics have more unique methods and differentiate themselves a bit more. I don't think tying each civic into a "collect X to gain benefits" is the way to do this, though. In regards to a civic that gives happiness (or whatever) based on mana, this is already represented by certain mana giving certain benefits (enchantment = :), for example).

Although now that I think about it, a civic that doubled all benefits from mana (not in terms of magic that can be learned, but the cumulative benefits) could be interesting.
 
A reminder about arcane knowledge, the percentage does not have to be 10. I like the idea, but perhaps something like +5% research per unique mana type owned would probably be more balanced. No need for the culture effect, either.
 
Sounds like it would work, though might need to weight in favour of happiness a little (each new resource provides +1 :) whilst it takes 2 absent resources for +1 :mad:).

Also sounds a little like the old Civ3 Market mechanic as I remember it. Each resource provides happiness, but the third and fourth provided an extra one, the fifth and sixth provided two extra and the seventh and eight provided three extra each (allowing a total of 20 happiness from all 8 luxury resources - have I remembered it right?)




Dangerous to take too much control away from the player - but perhaps you could trade a small reduction in overall production (-10% :hammers:) you control in exchange for the city randomly creating buildings and units from a "safe list" (nothing game-changing, just useful city-boosters/defenders such as courthouse, market, archer etc) at no additional cost from time to time (the governor has used the resources you allow him to direct himself to produce the new unit/structure). The chance of free production would be tied to the actual production of the city on a given turn.



Should all be possible through the events system - could even incorporate an element of campaigning on the part of the player (choosing which group you favour, increasing their chances of winning, but with a downside if they still lose). What could the benefit be however if the "Republic Trait" matches the "Leader Trait"? An Aggressive Leader leading an Aggressive Republic for instance...



I'm glad that idea reached fertile FF soil ;)

I thought about this, and I thought that, if that should happen, then instead of gaining a new trait, there would be 'major reforms' event that provides a bonus.

Double-Aggressive leader would get instant free troops, or great commanders, or empower promotions for entire unitclass, double spiritual leader free priests, free religion spread, free temples, double financial would get instant 300 gold bonus or extra commerce in few village tiles, etc. etc.

Event system would have to be used extensively, ala Paradox games (Victoria, EU, Hearts of Iron, CK...) Is it possible to make certain event trigger every X turns, like for elections?



Few more ideas- Nationhood could:
A) Hurt your diplomatic relations (either flat -2 relations or double the 'close borders' penalty)
B) Double or triple 'we yearn to join our motherland' but provide happiness in cities without foreigners
 
I thought about this, and I thought that, if that should happen, then instead of gaining a new trait, there would be 'major reforms' event that provides a bonus.

Double-Aggressive leader would get instant free troops, or great commanders, or empower promotions for entire unitclass, double spiritual leader free priests, free religion spread, free temples, double financial would get instant 300 gold bonus or extra commerce in few village tiles, etc. etc.

Event system would have to be used extensively, ala Paradox games (Victoria, EU, Hearts of Iron, CK...) Is it possible to make certain event trigger every X turns, like for elections?

That sounds a good answer to it. For making the event trigger periodically, I'd use the same mechanism as Adaptive does.

For the sake of simplicity, I'd choose to pair off political groups...

Hawks (Aggressive) vs Doves (Defensive)
Landowners (Financial) vs Peasants (Expansive)
Church (Spiritual) vs State (Organized)
Labor (Industrious) vs Academia (Philosophical)​

...and choose one pair at random as the "front runners" of that election. The player could then choose to support one side (making them 75% favourites to win) or stay out of it (50% either way). The winning side grants the trait temporarily, unless the player supported the opposition in which case he gets no benefit at all during this election period.

This basically means that the player has some limited control over the results of the elections, but can't use it to simply choose a free trait for himself.
 
That sounds a good answer to it. For making the event trigger periodically, I'd use the same mechanism as Adaptive does.

For the sake of simplicity, I'd choose to pair off political groups...

Hawks (Aggressive) vs Doves (Defensive)
Landowners (Financial) vs Peasants (Expansive)
Church (Spiritual) vs State (Organized)
Labor (Industrious) vs Academia (Philosophical)​

...and choose one pair at random as the "front runners" of that election. The player could then choose to support one side (making them 75% favourites to win) or stay out of it (50% either way). The winning side grants the trait temporarily, unless the player supported the opposition in which case he gets no benefit at all during this election period.

This basically means that the player has some limited control over the results of the elections, but can't use it to simply choose a free trait for himself.


Really nice, I like this.

I'd modify part about supporting 'wrong side'. I agree with: Staying out should give a 50-50% chance of either trait, supporting should increase chance of your side winning. But supporting side and losing should still provide the trait, because otherwise it would be too painful to risk support.

Instead I propose penalty for supporting wrong side.

Siding with landowners when peasants win should cause unhappiness, siding with academia when labor wins should cause loss of research, siding with defensive when aggressive wins should cause loss of culture...

Another way would be to make supporting cost gold, hence prohibiting players from supporting a side too often.

There could also be patrons of the arts (creative), demagogues that appeal to masses (charismatic) and extremists. Extremists would appear under critical conditions (high unhappiness and/or AC) and would try to switch you away from republic, making republic great for stable governments, but not so great for unstable.

Example of extremists would be Nobles, that if elected, can be either listened to (adopt Aristocracy), bribed (lose gold), ignored as best as possible (gain weak trait or some similar penalty) or crushed (causes unhappiness and spawns barbarian knights and royal guards)
 
Another possible mechanic for weak civic:

Foreign trade should give +1 happy and +3% gold from each open borders agreement.
 
Really nice, I like this.

I'd modify part about supporting 'wrong side'. I agree with: Staying out should give a 50-50% chance of either trait, supporting should increase chance of your side winning. But supporting side and losing should still provide the trait, because otherwise it would be too painful to risk support.

Instead I propose penalty for supporting wrong side.

Siding with landowners when peasants win should cause unhappiness, siding with academia when labor wins should cause loss of research, siding with defensive when aggressive wins should cause loss of culture...

I had thought about something like that, but it does quickly become quite complex to find enough different downsides that are feasible within the framework of the events system (without adding additional event triggers etc to make follow on events). It's possible - but trickier than I would like it to be.

TheJopa said:
Another way would be to make supporting cost gold, hence prohibiting players from supporting a side too often.

This might well work though. The only problem becomes how much gold to make it - is 100 a lot or a little at the stage where Republic is in use? Should the cost guarantee your side wins, or just boost it as the original version did?

====

The other thing I'm considering is just bumping the probability of your side winning upto 80% - giving you 4 out of 5 times (rather than 3 out of 4). It would probably be worth the risk to make sure you get Organized if you had no real religious emphasis or Financial if your economy needed the boost. There's no real "loss" for losing it, you just don't get the bonus from it this time around. I currently have it set to a 2/3 (or ~67%) chance of an election triggering every 25 turns (Standard Speed), so you shouldn't be waiting too long for the next one.[/QUOTE]
 
Mundane Knowledge is silly. there's nothing mundane about blowing things apart with a cannon. And more research leads to more arcane power, too.

In a world of magic, anything accomplished through non-magical means is referred to as mundane. The definition of mundane is: 1. of the world; esp., worldly, as distinguished from heavenly, spiritual, etc. (the etc would include magical/arcane). 2. commonplace, everyday, ordinary, etc.

Blowing things apart with a cannon is, in fact, mundane, because it relies on the use of ordinary chemical reactions to propel a piece of metal or stone out of a metal cylinder. Nothing in this action or the construction of the cannon, ammunition nor explosive powder is heavenly, spiritual or magical.

Also, I'd like to add that your Arcane Knowledge idea is horribly overpowered.

Almost all civs start with 3 mana sources, which means that even with no additional mana, it would be just about the best possible civic choice. More research than Scholarship already. Once you start laying a few mana nodes, you'd never look at anything else.

It sounds to me like you're assuming the Arcane Knowledge would be available near the start of the game. No, this would require researching a higher end tech. I'm thinking of having this available with "Strength of Will" as this is where you also unlock Archmages. Thus it'd be after obtaining scholarship.
 
Then the membership in them be based on having the required religions. If you want to ensure only belonging to one the other or neither base said membership on how many of your cities have each of the two religions. To belong to neither you either have to not have either religion or have an equal number of cities having each. Thus if all your cities have both you'd belong to neither.

That would allow Good civs to join the Undecouncil and vice versa. Also, a single rival missionary may ban you from the Council you're in.
 
In a world of magic, anything accomplished through non-magical means is referred to as mundane. The definition of mundane is: 1. of the world; esp., worldly, as distinguished from heavenly, spiritual, etc. (the etc would include magical/arcane). 2. commonplace, everyday, ordinary, etc.

The definition is right, but it is the default term for knowledge that mortals have. So, it is alright if you say "Knowledge of the Ether", "Divine Knowledge", since they are not ordinary, but saying "Mundane Knowledge" sounds redundant.

Blowing things apart with a cannon is, in fact, mundane, because it relies on the use of ordinary chemical reactions to propel a piece of metal or stone out of a metal cylinder. Nothing in this action or the construction of the cannon, ammunition nor explosive powder is heavenly, spiritual or magical.

Sure it is, as is forging a sword, building a barracks or fletching an arrow.
 
I currently have it set to a 2/3 (or ~67%) chance of an election triggering every 25 turns (Standard Speed), so you shouldn't be waiting too long for the next one.
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Cool, so we get to play with this actually? :D

Can you set event to trigger turn after you adopt republic, to prevent going on for 50 turns without trait?
 
TheJopa said:
Cool, so we get to play with this actually? :D

Can you set event to trigger turn after you adopt republic, to prevent going on for 50 turns without trait?

That's the plan - not sure where to hang it yet, but I'll find somewhere.

I'm having to use Feats to track which Trait is the Republic Trait though (so that it can be removed come election day), so it won't be a something that can be used directly with FfH - it'll need a small chunk of the FF DLL.
 
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