Civics in FfH2

That sounds a good answer to it. For making the event trigger periodically, I'd use the same mechanism as Adaptive does.

For the sake of simplicity, I'd choose to pair off political groups...

Hawks (Aggressive) vs Doves (Defensive)
Landowners (Financial) vs Peasants (Expansive)
Church (Spiritual) vs State (Organized)
Labor (Industrious) vs Academia (Philosophical)​

...and choose one pair at random as the "front runners" of that election. The player could then choose to support one side (making them 75% favourites to win) or stay out of it (50% either way). The winning side grants the trait temporarily, unless the player supported the opposition in which case he gets no benefit at all during this election period.

This basically means that the player has some limited control over the results of the elections, but can't use it to simply choose a free trait for himself.

One thing I would change: Labor vs Academia isn't that tense - there isn't much for them to fight over, and often a lot of sympathy on the part of academia for labor. Some kinds of skilled labor also depend on academia.

How about Labor versus Merchants (or Rich, or Elite, or something) and Peasants versus Academia?

Overall though, I think this is a really great mechanic for Republic.
 
I have read most of this, and disagree completely.
The strangest thing I have seen here is that people think slavery and Agrarianisam are good civics.
Slavery will bury you in unhappines and prevent you from having those 30 pop cities and agrarianisam is ok, but there are far better options in the same line. I have played FFH for some time and just switched to FF and I newer run the 2.

What I think should be done is to remove the unhappines from republic. It makes no sence in the medieval D&D setting of FFH.
It's just sad when your ally the Mercurian Republic, asks you to make war to the Infernal Republic. Becouse every AI takes the civic becouse of a hard coded hatred for unhappynes.
 
One thing I would change: Labor vs Academia isn't that tense - there isn't much for them to fight over, and often a lot of sympathy on the part of academia for labor. Some kinds of skilled labor also depend on academia.

How about Labor versus Merchants (or Rich, or Elite, or something) and Peasants versus Academia?

Overall though, I think this is a really great mechanic for Republic.

Aye - I'd agree that Labor and Academia aren't as polar-opposite as Hawks/Doves, but they are different enough that they'll want to prioritize different things in the Senate. In the FfH setting, we're talking Workers vs Sages. Labor therefore is Industrious/Great Engineer, "Academia" is Philosophical/Great Scientist. It's actually a pretty poor name for the group - the comparison should be more physical/labor vs mental/intellectualism.

With the Landowners vs Peasants - there were a good number of riots, insurrections and even the occasional uprising based on how each was treated, so they do make pretty good opponents. The Landowners in that case represent the rich merchants whilst the Peasants are the poorer populace (Landowner is linked to Financial and Great Merchant, Peasants are linked to Expansive and a substantial Health/Happy boost).

How about good design versus feature bloat?

I'm quite happy with the design of this one really.
 
I have read most of this, and disagree completely.
The strangest thing I have seen here is that people think slavery and Agrarianisam are good civics.
Slavery will bury you in unhappines and prevent you from having those 30 pop cities and agrarianisam is ok, but there are far better options in the same line. I have played FFH for some time and just switched to FF and I newer run the 2.

What I think should be done is to remove the unhappines from republic. It makes no sence in the medieval D&D setting of FFH.
It's just sad when your ally the Mercurian Republic, asks you to make war to the Infernal Republic. Becouse every AI takes the civic becouse of a hard coded hatred for unhappynes.

I think you're in the minority there. Most people seem to think Agriarianism (in conjunction with Aristocracy) is overall the best economy civic.

It seems obvious to me that it is: whatever all the other Economy civics do, more :food: and more :health: equals more Population. And Population means almost everything.

Conquest is situationally better, but if you don't use Conquest, you're not going to lose out on much. Conquest is only good at specific points in city development where you have a large amount of excess food relative to the population. For large, equilibrium cities, Conquest doesn't do much.

Foreign Trade is very map- and civ-dependent; it's mainly for Cultural victory. Mercantilism is almost always worse than every other civic, and Guardians of Nature is good for Elven civs and few others.

How about good design versus feature bloat?

How about snarky comments versus meaningful contribution?

Seriously, if you have something useful to say, it probably takes more than one sentence to say it.

As for "bloat", that's exactly what we have in the civics right now.
 
Aye - I'd agree that Labor and Academia aren't as polar-opposite as Hawks/Doves, but they are different enough that they'll want to prioritize different things in the Senate. In the FfH setting, we're talking Workers vs Sages. Labor therefore is Industrious/Great Engineer, "Academia" is Philosophical/Great Scientist. It's actually a pretty poor name for the group - the comparison should be more physical/labor vs mental/intellectualism.

With the Landowners vs Peasants - there were a good number of riots, insurrections and even the occasional uprising based on how each was treated, so they do make pretty good opponents. The Landowners in that case represent the rich merchants whilst the Peasants are the poorer populace (Landowner is linked to Financial and Great Merchant, Peasants are linked to Expansive and a substantial Health/Happy boost).

I see what you're saying - I certainly think Landowners are opposed to both Peasants and Labor.

I do understand Senethro's concern that the elections are a bit "bloated" - it adds a whole extra set of events that aren't really that meaningful. It's also another thing people will savescum for. (Oh man, I really want Industrious so I can finish this wonder, so I'll reload until they win the election.)

What if, upon switching to Republic, you just picked a new civilizational trait? Or gained the Adapative trait? Upon switching from Republic, you lose the trait.

Adaptive is sort of like elections anyway - I don't think it's odd that the player might basically decide who "wins the elections", and I think it's generally better for the player to control that sort of thing anyway. Otherwise, if Republic doesn't grant Adaptive, it should still grant the player's choice for the same reason. Without Adaptive, the player could still change traits every ~20 turns (the limit between revolutions).
 
Slavery is great for Mahala at least. Slaves can be turned into Lunatics for 33 gold or Stygs/Battlemasters for 70. Pillage one Town, win four battles and you got yourself a free unit.

Given the high cost and low return of many FFH buildings I rarely find population whipping useful except in combination with Sacrifice the Weak. But its always useful for captured cities where the alternative is to allow the excess population to starve.

I wouldn't claim Slavery is anything but a temporary civic, but its certainly more useful than Foreign Trade/Mercantilism and a few others which don't even have a civ/religion specific usage.

Also, how much do Slaves sell for in CoE slave trade right now?

Agrarianism: If its not so powerful, how about posing some saves from vanilla FFH games where you haven't used it exclusively to turn 250 Normal speed (i.e. most of the game)

Edit: I should really learn to type faster.

As for "bloat", that's exactly what we have in the civics right now.
I disagree. We have some underutilized civics because others are too powerful. Membership isn't a real civics category, so that puts FFH with 4 civics categories compared to Civ4's 5. We bid farewell to Education and Healthcare, while retaining their interesting choices. Now, who'd have predicted that two years ago or how well it would work?
 
Slavery is great for Mahala at least. Slaves can be turned into Lunatics for 33 gold or Stygs/Battlemasters for 70. Pillage one Town, win four battles and you got yourself a free unit.

Given the high cost and low return of many FFH buildings I rarely find population whipping useful except in combination with Sacrifice the Weak. But its always useful for captured cities where the alternative is to allow the excess population to starve.

I wouldn't claim Slavery is anything but a temporary civic, but its certainly more useful than Foreign Trade/Mercantilism and a few others which don't even have a civ/religion specific usage.

Also, how much do Slaves sell for in CoE slave trade right now?

Agrarianism: If its not so powerful, how about posing some saves from vanilla FFH games where you haven't used it exclusively to turn 250 Normal speed (i.e. most of the game)

Edit: I should really learn to type faster.


I disagree. We have some underutilized civics because others are too powerful. Membership isn't a real civics category, so that puts FFH with 4 civics categories compared to Civ4's 5. We bid farewell to Education and Healthcare, while retaining their interesting choices. Now, who'd have predicted that two years ago or how well it would work?

We both seem to agree that Agrarianism is generally the optimal Economy civic. So I think we'd agree that the Civics don't necessarily work that well. Perhaps the Civic categories were more bloated before, but bloat is now the main problem in Cultural Values, while balance is the problem in Economy and Labor.
 
I think you're in the minority there. Most people seem to think Agriarianism (in conjunction with Aristocracy) is overall the best economy civic.

It seems obvious to me that it is: whatever all the other Economy civics do, more :food: and more :health: equals more Population. And Population means almost everything.

Conquest is situationally better, but if you don't use Conquest, you're not going to lose out on much. Conquest is only good at specific points in city development where you have a large amount of excess food relative to the population. For large, equilibrium cities, Conquest doesn't do much.

Foreign Trade is very map- and civ-dependent; it's mainly for Cultural victory. Mercantilism is almost always worse than every other civic, and Guardians of Nature is good for Elven civs and few others.

I don't realy see what they see in the combination.
It's true that conquest is only good for rushing a large army in minimal time but it still has it's uses.
Mercentalism is blessed when you have little friends and a lot of people who would prefer your head on a plate to a nice trade.
But a combo of Foregin trade and eather Industry or militairy state is imposibly good when you are runing a large costal empire, especialy if you have the great lighthouse. Get a few allies and you have your self a cash flow dream.

By it self militairy state is esential for a large warring empire. And industry gives you production bonuses that do not require you to murder half of your population. To me, eather of those is infinitely better than slavery or agrarianism, the +1 food does not realy make a diference.

And I don't realy see the need for any major changes with the civics. The changes you people sugjested sound scary unfun to me. They have the potential to complicate the game up to a point where the game becomes a battle against the interface rather than a fun time.
 
Interesting points Apotheoser. I applaud your diligence here and your attempts to improve the game, although I have to admit that I disagree on many of your points. As you point out, there are really two parts to your posts; in my words, the first deal with whether the civics are logically representative of actual civic implementation, and the second is that their effects are poorly done in the game.

For the first part, as some people have said, I think you may be overly concerned with the naming, that is, semantics. I understand a desire for accuracy, so I can understand that you feel a ‘crusade’ has a religious connotation. I have two points for that. First, my dictionary has the third meaning of crusade as being ‘A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.’ So, I’m not sure that even in English, a crusade infers a religious war. More importantly, though, we need to separate its efficacy as a Civic from its name. If Kael changed the civic’s name from ‘Crusade’ to ‘Sabathial’s call to arms’ would it really change anything?

I also disagree fundamentally in an underlying point, concerning whether civics should be tied to specific Civilizations. I think an error made by many Mod makers is that they start at the ‘low’ level, designing Civ’s, units, buildings, etc. but not looking at their interplay and how they affect the mod as a whole. ‘Sabathal’s call to arms’ IS THE Bannor Strategy. You cannot remove it without fundamentally changing the Bannor. So, in my opinion, good design starts with the following thoughts: ‘I think it would be neat to have a powerful civilization that is very ‘lawful’ (in D & D terms) that is characterized by extreme loyalty and single-mindedness. They don’t have a lot of individual powerful attributes; their power is their ability to sacrifice everything for making war.’ OK, that is the idea, a neat idea. How do we implement it? If the best way to implement the idea for the civilization is through a Civic, then my view is that is good design. And, indeed, the Bannor are my favorite (not most powerful, my favorite to play) as the challenge is to have the infrastructure necessary to call the crusade (sorry, I’m using that name) and it impacts how you build, war, and develop from the first turns.

Again, I think we ought to look at Arete by its effects, not by what the word arête means. I’m not a programmer or designer, but I suspect it is much easier to change the name of a civic than to actually change how it is implemented.

I also disagree fundamentally on a few points because my view is that you have to give some latitude to the difference between living in Erebus and living in a world like ours. For example, with religion,, in Erebus, we have a REAL pantheon of gods and priests with extraordinary powers and impacts on life. So, I disagree fundamentally that following religion and non-state temples is equivalent to Liberty, representing free choice.

Why can’t building temples mean that you are actually getting favor from the god and the priests that follow it? If a civilization decides that it will include the powers of the local religions in the government, won’t the priests there be performing services for the populace, like healing diseases which may increase life expectancy by 45 years? Wouldn’t this make people ‘happier’? My view is that without the religion civic, the priests are only healing members of their own congregation, a limited use, and it is hard to get priest to work the temples; but when the religious civic is run, and they effectively are invited to participate in the government, they open their doors to all comers. Perhaps even more important, the gods themselves are honored, and in FfH, all of the gods have real power. I view this as fundamentally different form simply the desire for free religion or liberty.

Likewise, it is not simply ‘cultural value’. Your statement that ‘The alternative is that people seem to just be happy that the temples are there, even if they're not using them. Again, this is a weird sort of semi-"Liberty" concept - diversity provides happiness or something’ is, in my opinion, plain wrong. When the plague comes into the town the mothers are taking their children to all of the priests who are up to their eyeballs curing it, but fortunately, with lots of temples and open religion, there are many priests and many people are cured. I have similar comments about your other views of religion in FfH here.

I also disagree with your view on Social Order, again because I feel it represents something far different from your view which is more abstract. My view is that ‘Social Order’ means that the government is handing (some) power over to the Order religion, and with it its stranglehold on many things, but with its tremendously well run bureaucracy. So, I don’t think of it as the value of ‘stability and order in their life’, as you say; I think of it as the priests of Order eliminating the prevalent corruption which would be rampant in an FfH type world.

I can go on with other specific picks, but I think you understand my general point – I think when you enter a new world or experience and you see effects, the game designer should be given the benefit of the doubt. Instead of concentrating on the words used, think of the effects of the civic and see if you can make sense of how it fits into this strange world.

Civics and Play

As far as balancing the civics from a play standpoint, this is always an interesting and important topic. I’m not sure how to interpret ‘Suffice it to say, the Civics don't really seem balanced. More to the point, they're so similar that's it's generally obvious which ones are mathematically superior to the others, even if you're playing the game the same way.’ This seems a little contradictory.

My view is that civics are best if they are balanced. However, I don’t view balanced as the same as not mattering. If one civic gives more food and the other gives more science, they are different. A key to strategy is using the civics to match your strategy using workers, building, wonders, and type of victory. So, in regular BtS, we can build a cottage economy or a specialist economy. If you use a specialist economy you want representation – but this doesn’t mean that it is simply ‘an accounting problem’. Civ IV in all of its incarnations is dominated by focus. You focus your civ on a specific type to achieve your strategy. In FfH, the importance of synergy is even greater, so we see the ‘Calabim-agrarian-aristocracy’ and we decide if we want Ashen Veil and sacrifice the weak, etc. The point is that these decisions are integrated, and at competitive levels (meaning the level played is competitive for the given player), they matter quite a lot.

I have to admit I do think the civics can be improved from a game play perspective, but the issue for a game designer is experience across many players, civs, map-types, etc. I think we already see differences of opinion as to how good the civics are. People who like to play the Hippus on Pangaea maps may say foreign trade is useless, while people playing the Lanun on Large archipelago will say otherwise. I know I always am either at City-states or god-king; however, I suspect that I’m not using aristocracy and theocracy more because of poor play on my part than from a lack of balance; however, I’m not sure so these kinds of threads can be useful to find the experience of other players.

Finally, you said, ‘Even if everyone thinks I'm a long-winded moron, hopefully people start a discussion based on what I've said, generating some more interesting and coherent Civic ideas, for what is otherwise a great mod.’ I think it is a good post and I think the debate here is helpful. I’m probably one of the most long-winded guys here! I do admit I think you should have started the post more objectively, saying, ‘I think the civics can be improved’ instead of a thumb’s down and ‘the civics are a total mess.’ You may say this is just semantics itself, but to me it isn’t. When you wrote a very long post, people will react viscerally to the impression they get early. You wrote a very thoughtful piece, so I’m recommending that you think about how to get your ideas out most effectively; I think you have a lot to add even if I disagree on a lot of it!

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
I don't realy see what they see in the combination.
It's true that conquest is only good for rushing a large army in minimal time but it still has it's uses.
Mercentalism is blessed when you have little friends and a lot of people who would prefer your head on a plate to a nice trade.
But a combo of Foregin trade and eather Industry or militairy state is imposibly good when you are runing a large costal empire, especialy if you have the great lighthouse. Get a few allies and you have your self a cash flow dream.

By it self militairy state is esential for a large warring empire. And industry gives you production bonuses that do not require you to murder half of your population. To me, eather of those is infinitely better than slavery or agrarianism, the +1 food does not realy make a diference.

And I don't realy see the need for any major changes with the civics. The changes you people sugjested sound scary unfun to me. They have the potential to complicate the game up to a point where the game becomes a battle against the interface rather than a fun time.

Well, the Agri-stocracy combination is intuitive: farms get +1 :food: from agri, -1 :food: from Aristo, but then +2 :commerce: from Aristo. You also lose 1 :hammers: from farms in agri, but if you build farms on grasslands, there are no :hammers: to lose, so there's really no penalty.

Since farms still make bonus :food: (even though the civics cancel out), you can work more tiles (and even more tiles with Sanitation). Then you build Cottages on your Plains tiles - and you can work more Cottages because you have Farms on your grasslands, while still keeping some of the :commerce: on the farms.

Now, in a map with small islands or long, skinny continents, this won't work as well. You won't have as many rivers or as many grassland tiles. Plus, since you have a lot of water tiles, you already have a lot of :commerce:, and you'll get even more from more trade routes. So yeah, if that's the map you play on, the strategy is different. Most maps aren't like that, so most people don't play like that.

You mention Industry but you need to remember that is in Fall Further only; it's not in regular Fall from Heaven. Further, Industry is a very late tech. You have to use different civics for hundreds of turns before getting to Industry, so it probably should be better than others (which it is).

I think you are somewhat confused about the Civics though. You CAN have Agrarianism and Industry: one is Labor and one is Economy. You CAN have Agrarianism and Military State.

Finally, you need to realize that Conquest isn't ALWAYS good for rushing a military quickly. It's only good if you happen to have excess food. If you have a large popluation city, there probably isn't much excess food and therefore Conquest doesn't add much.
 
Interesting points Apotheoser. I applaud your diligence here and your attempts to improve the game, although I have to admit that I disagree on many of your points. As you point out, there are really two parts to your posts; in my words, the first deal with whether the civics are logically representative of actual civic implementation, and the second is that their effects are poorly done in the game.

For the first part, as some people have said, I think you may be overly concerned with the naming, that is, semantics. I understand a desire for accuracy, so I can understand that you feel a ‘crusade’ has a religious connotation. I have two points for that. First, my dictionary has the third meaning of crusade as being ‘A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.’ So, I’m not sure that even in English, a crusade infers a religious war. More importantly, though, we need to separate its efficacy as a Civic from its name. If Kael changed the civic’s name from ‘Crusade’ to ‘Sabathial’s call to arms’ would it really change anything?

I also disagree fundamentally in an underlying point, concerning whether civics should be tied to specific Civilizations. I think an error made by many Mod makers is that they start at the ‘low’ level, designing Civ’s, units, buildings, etc. but not looking at their interplay and how they affect the mod as a whole. ‘Sabathal’s call to arms’ IS THE Bannor Strategy. You cannot remove it without fundamentally changing the Bannor. So, in my opinion, good design starts with the following thoughts: ‘I think it would be neat to have a powerful civilization that is very ‘lawful’ (in D & D terms) that is characterized by extreme loyalty and single-mindedness. They don’t have a lot of individual powerful attributes; their power is their ability to sacrifice everything for making war.’ OK, that is the idea, a neat idea. How do we implement it? If the best way to implement the idea for the civilization is through a Civic, then my view is that is good design. And, indeed, the Bannor are my favorite (not most powerful, my favorite to play) as the challenge is to have the infrastructure necessary to call the crusade (sorry, I’m using that name) and it impacts how you build, war, and develop from the first turns.

Again, I think we ought to look at Arete by its effects, not by what the word arête means. I’m not a programmer or designer, but I suspect it is much easier to change the name of a civic than to actually change how it is implemented.

I also disagree fundamentally on a few points because my view is that you have to give some latitude to the difference between living in Erebus and living in a world like ours. For example, with religion,, in Erebus, we have a REAL pantheon of gods and priests with extraordinary powers and impacts on life. So, I disagree fundamentally that following religion and non-state temples is equivalent to Liberty, representing free choice.

Why can’t building temples mean that you are actually getting favor from the god and the priests that follow it? If a civilization decides that it will include the powers of the local religions in the government, won’t the priests there be performing services for the populace, like healing diseases which may increase life expectancy by 45 years? Wouldn’t this make people ‘happier’? My view is that without the religion civic, the priests are only healing members of their own congregation, a limited use, and it is hard to get priest to work the temples; but when the religious civic is run, and they effectively are invited to participate in the government, they open their doors to all comers. Perhaps even more important, the gods themselves are honored, and in FfH, all of the gods have real power. I view this as fundamentally different form simply the desire for free religion or liberty.

Likewise, it is not simply ‘cultural value’. Your statement that ‘The alternative is that people seem to just be happy that the temples are there, even if they're not using them. Again, this is a weird sort of semi-"Liberty" concept - diversity provides happiness or something’ is, in my opinion, plain wrong. When the plague comes into the town the mothers are taking their children to all of the priests who are up to their eyeballs curing it, but fortunately, with lots of temples and open religion, there are many priests and many people are cured. I have similar comments about your other views of religion in FfH here.

I also disagree with your view on Social Order, again because I feel it represents something far different from your view which is more abstract. My view is that ‘Social Order’ means that the government is handing (some) power over to the Order religion, and with it its stranglehold on many things, but with its tremendously well run bureaucracy. So, I don’t think of it as the value of ‘stability and order in their life’, as you say; I think of it as the priests of Order eliminating the prevalent corruption which would be rampant in an FfH type world.

I can go on with other specific picks, but I think you understand my general point – I think when you enter a new world or experience and you see effects, the game designer should be given the benefit of the doubt. Instead of concentrating on the words used, think of the effects of the civic and see if you can make sense of how it fits into this strange world.

Civics and Play

As far as balancing the civics from a play standpoint, this is always an interesting and important topic. I’m not sure how to interpret ‘Suffice it to say, the Civics don't really seem balanced. More to the point, they're so similar that's it's generally obvious which ones are mathematically superior to the others, even if you're playing the game the same way.’ This seems a little contradictory.

My view is that civics are best if they are balanced. However, I don’t view balanced as the same as not mattering. If one civic gives more food and the other gives more science, they are different. A key to strategy is using the civics to match your strategy using workers, building, wonders, and type of victory. So, in regular BtS, we can build a cottage economy or a specialist economy. If you use a specialist economy you want representation – but this doesn’t mean that it is simply ‘an accounting problem’. Civ IV in all of its incarnations is dominated by focus. You focus your civ on a specific type to achieve your strategy. In FfH, the importance of synergy is even greater, so we see the ‘Calabim-agrarian-aristocracy’ and we decide if we want Ashen Veil and sacrifice the weak, etc. The point is that these decisions are integrated, and at competitive levels (meaning the level played is competitive for the given player), they matter quite a lot.

I have to admit I do think the civics can be improved from a game play perspective, but the issue for a game designer is experience across many players, civs, map-types, etc. I think we already see differences of opinion as to how good the civics are. People who like to play the Hippus on Pangaea maps may say foreign trade is useless, while people playing the Lanun on Large archipelago will say otherwise. I know I always am either at City-states or god-king; however, I suspect that I’m not using aristocracy and theocracy more because of poor play on my part than from a lack of balance; however, I’m not sure so these kinds of threads can be useful to find the experience of other players.

Finally, you said, ‘Even if everyone thinks I'm a long-winded moron, hopefully people start a discussion based on what I've said, generating some more interesting and coherent Civic ideas, for what is otherwise a great mod.’ I think it is a good post and I think the debate here is helpful. I’m probably one of the most long-winded guys here! I do admit I think you should have started the post more objectively, saying, ‘I think the civics can be improved’ instead of a thumb’s down and ‘the civics are a total mess.’ You may say this is just semantics itself, but to me it isn’t. When you wrote a very long post, people will react viscerally to the impression they get early. You wrote a very thoughtful piece, so I’m recommending that you think about how to get your ideas out most effectively; I think you have a lot to add even if I disagree on a lot of it!

Best wishes,

Breunor

Well, I have to agree with much of what you say. I think I failed to articulate the balance issues, especially on Cultural Values. As you point out I raised two contradictory objections (choices are totally obvious, but they also don't matter).

I also see your points about my "thematic" objections. What I really failed to do here was to post alternatives that were (1) consistent in the ways I criticized the currents Civics for, and (2) interesting to gameplay. I'll try to do that in my next post.

I admit, I'm only vaguely familiar with the FfH backstory, although I am very familiar with the D&D rules (such as alignment, magic schools, et cetera). The Bannor Crusade idea has been a bit of a sticking point. I came to learn from some replies that we actually can have 6 civics categories, and I think the solution lies therein.
 
Finally - Some Concrete Suggestions (part 1)
I'm sure these will be controversial. I've only been thinking of them for a few days so I'm sure of them are overpowered, either alone or in combination with others.

But the point is that they are dramatically different from one another, often with more bonuses and penalties than their original counterparts. In other words, I think they are more interesting, but I also hope they are not "bloated" or boring. I tried to make them about specific choices in play-style, in both a mechanical way and a role-play (or "thematic") way. I won't go into all of those reasons right here, since there are so many Civics. If there are any that jump out to people as particularly bizarre, I'll be happy to explain my idea (and admit that it's probably ridiculous!)

Hopefully, it sparks more discussion, regardless of opinions of my own ideas. Please read each category before commenting; some things have been moved around, not eliminated (like sacrificing population to rush production). Obviously some of the Technology requirements should be adjusted as a balancing mechanic. If it's a totally new civic, I've included the relevant technology.

Also, I outline 6 categories here. I'm told that's entirely possible to do. Some of the categories are more or less similar; others are drastically different.

Government
Despotism - Medium upkeep. Starting government civic. Increased maintenance penalty for number of cities.

God-King - Low upkeep. Huge bonus to :hammers: and :commerce: in capital. No :mad: in capital. No :gp: in capital. Increased maintenance penalty for distance from capital, decreased for number of cities.

Aristocracy - High upkeep. Melee, ranged, and mounted units you train start with +5 experience. (not drafted, summoned, or mercenary units). +2 :culture: in each city. Forts grow to Citadels twice as fast.

Magisterium - Medium upkeep. Mage's Guild: +:science: and reduces city maintenance costs. Adepts, mages, and archmages provide :).

Theocracy - Low upkeep. No non-state :religion: spread. Unlimited Priests. Cities with state :religion: build buildings faster. Disciple units build faster.

Republic - Medium upkeep. Large war weariness penalty. Upon switching to Republic, you get a free civilizational trait. If you switch off Republic, you lose that trait. Large reduction to maintenance from number of cities.

Legal
Barbarism - Medium Upkeep. Starting Legal civic. No bonuses or penalties.

Vassalage - Low upkeep. Can Draft units; draftees are 0 xp Warriors. -1:commerce: in plots that produce 2:commerce: or more, except in capital city and cities with Winter/Summer Palace.

Bureaucracy - High upkeep. Can spend gold to rush production. Can increase the :science: slider beyond 100%, effectively spending :gold: for :science:. (Obviously, if the treasury is empty, you will still be forced to lower the :science: slider until your budget is balanced).

Free Cities - Low upkeep. +:) in largest cities. +:health: in all cities. +1 free specialist per city.

The Great Dreaming - Requires Octopus Overlords state religion. Requires Mind Stapling. I have no idea what it should do.

Labor
Tribalism - Low upkeep. Default Labor civic. No bonuses or penalties.

Forced Labor - High upkeep. :food: builds buildings. Alters your alignment downward 1 step (Good->Neutral, Neutral->Evil). +1:hammers: from mine and quarry.

Guilds - Low upkeep. +2:gold: and +1:hammers: from each Town. Cottages grown to Towns twice as fast. No foreign:traderoute:.

Caste System - No upkeep. +1:) and +2:culture: per specialist. Workers build improvements faster.

Peasant Collectives - Medium upkeep.
Windmill:+1:food:, +1:hammers:
Watermill: +1:hammers:, +1:commerce:
Lumbermill: +1:hammers:, +1:commerce:
 
Part 2 (due to restrictions on images)
Economy
Decentralization - Low upkeep. Default Economy civic. No bonuses or penalties.

Agrarian - Medium upkeep. +1:food: on plots that produce 2 or more. -1:hammers: on plots that produce 2 or more.

Conquest - :food: builds units. +2 xp per unit. +free units. Medium upkeep.

Mercantilism - Medium upkeep. No foreign trade routes. +1:traderoute: per city. +3:commerce: per specialist.

Foreign Trade - Low upkeep. +1:traderoute: per city. Additional +1:traderoute: in coastal cities. +20%:culture:. +:) from Harbor, Shipyard, and Smuggler's Port.

Guardians of Nature - Medium upkeep. +5:health: in all cities. -10%:hammers:. +2:) from Grove. +1:) from Forest, Ancient Forest, Jungle. Workers can build Animal Lairs within cultural borders (the lair is chosen randomly from those appropriate to the square. Removes all other improvements).

Cultural Values
Expediency - No upkeep. Default Cultural Value. No modifiers or penalties.

Hearth & Home - No upkeep. Requires Festivals. The :food: threshold for the next population increase is reduced. +1:) per luxury resource. -20% military production.

Duty - Low upkeep. +1:) from each Temple, Courthouse, and Basilica. Small reduction in maintenance costs.

Fortune and Glory - Low upkeep. Great Generals can be produced by military victories. +free units. Increased gold from blockades and pillaging.

Excellence - Medium upkeep. All specialists produce +1:culture:. In addition, Bards produce another +1:culture:, Sages produce +1:science:, and Engineers produce +1:hammers:.

Sacrifice the Weak - Medium upkeep. Requires Ashen Veil state :religion:. Can Sacrifice population to rush production. Citizens eat 1.5 instead of 2 food. -20%:gp:. +10%:gold:. +4:yuck:. Moves alignment down one step (Neutral -> Evil).

Knowledge - Low upkeep. Library, Mage's Guild, and Alchemist Lab: These buildings provide more +:science:, +:culture:, and get built 50% faster.

Justice - High upkeep. Requires Order state :religion:. +1:hammers: per :). Causes :mad: in civilizations without Justice. Moves alignment up one step (Neutral -> Good).

Special Sauce (I have no idea what to call this category)
Undercouncil

Overcouncil

Crusade - Bannor only.

Empyrean special civic - requires Empyrean state religion. Might include Overcouncil access.

Council of Esus special civic - requires Council of Esus state religion. Includes Undercouncil access. Don't know what else it should do.
 
Some very interesting suggestions here. I think that including all of those civics would be a little bloat-ish, but some of the ideas are fantastic. I especially like

Republic - Medium upkeep. Large war weariness penalty. Upon switching to Republic, you get a free civilizational trait. If you switch off Republic, you lose that trait. Large reduction to maintenance from number of cities.

and

Fortune and Glory - Low upkeep. Great Generals can produced by military victories. +free units. + from Privateers and pillaging.
 
That would allow Good civs to join the Undecouncil and vice versa. Also, a single rival missionary may ban you from the Council you're in.

Ah, but that just opens possibilities for new tactics when you have open boarders with someone not on the council. It'd be like sneaking a spy into the enemy's palace with the mission of infiltrating and sabotaging. After all you'd want to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. What better way is there for good and evil to keep tabs on each other than by joining their council.

A single rival missionary couldn't ban you from a council unless you only have the required religion for said council in one city. Besides it's real easy to get rid of any religion you don't want in a city by using your priests with the inquisition promotion to remove all but the state religion.
 
God-King - Low upkeep. Huge bonus to :hammers: and :commerce: in capital. No :mad: in capital. No :gp: in capital. Increased maintenance penalty for distance from capital, decreased for number of cities.

It all looks real good to me, except the no :gp: part in this one. After all when running it you're more likely to build the various wonders in the capital so you can beat your opponents to finishing them. So how about a -25% :gp: or even -50% :gp: in the capital.

Edit for an idea on this one.
The Great Dreaming - Requires Octopus Overlords state :religion:. Requires Mind Stapling. I have no idea what it should do.

How about? Prevents hell terrain from spreading in your cultural boarders regardless of your alignment and reverts any hell terrain already in your boarders back to normal. The idea behind this is your people are so devoted to the Octopus Overlord that he uses his powers to keep your lands cool and wet.

Alternately, it could have harbors provide +1 :hammers: and +1 :commerce: in each sea tile but -1 :hammers: in each land tile for your coastal cities. Because in the trance state of the dream your people learn to get more out of the sea, but forget how to get the most out of the land.
 
Wow!

Apotheoser, I think I now understand what you were saying and trying to get at. First, I really like what you have here (for instance, I think aristocracy would dominate the late game). Like you, I'm not positive how good the balance is here, it would have to be tested especially in combination. However, I'll explain why below, I actually like these ideas more for REGULAR civ and BtS than I do for FfH -- but they may be a good rule (or even a good option) for FfH also! Regardless, I am impressed with your vision and creativity!

In my words, I think what you are trying to say and do is to make the civics more defining of the civilization, making them have far more impact; yours do. The civics choice would be more defining of the way the civilization develops. I now understand your earlier comments that civics don't matter very much, and I understand the perspective.


So, oddly I really love this kind of idea for Civ IV and Bts! I always felt that Civ IV was a little blasé in terms of the different Civ's. They were defined by one unique unit, one unique building, and two characteristics defined by the leader. I often thought I could have swapped out CIv's and played the game pretty much identically. I never felt 'immersed' by the civilization, that the terrain and usual game mechanics would dictate play more than any flavor. A civic system like the one here could, in my opinion, add a lot of flavor.

The 'granddaddy' game of the Civ series can be thought of as the board game Civilization. There, Civ's are somewhat generic (besides location) but the Civ is defined by the purchase of 'Civilization cards' like pottery, drama, architecture, etc. Later in the game you will get most of them, but early on the purchase of these cards differentiated the civilization. The civics proposed here do a similar job.

I'm not quite as sure I would prefer it for FfH; from a pure 'feel' standpoint, the single reason I prefer FfH to regular Civ the most is because in FfH, I feel 'immersed'. I'm not sure if it is the rules, the lore, the artwork, or all of them, but when I play the Bannor, I 'feel' like I'm playing the Bannor. So, I'm a little worried that having civics like these may be a little TOO much -- if the civics add so much flavor, they may overwhelm the mechanics that are being used now to make the Civ's unique. Civics are a key part of the game, so making them more important may be good, but we don't want civics to dominate.

However, if I can argue with myself, I think they are interesting and kind of cool even for FfH. I certainly would be interested in trying them out. My ideal, then, would be something like this for a mod, a 'strong civic' version of FfH.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
I agree with you, for the most part. One thing I would like to counter, though is "Religion" is just a bad name for a "Cultural Value." I understand where you are coming from, and I agree with your complaints about how it is implemented, but Religion can be a cultural value.

Second, your comments on city-state:
"City States" doesn't answer the question the "Government" category asks: "Who is in power"? [...] A God King could appoint mayors to rule on his behalf.
The cities are in charge. It's in the name. If a god-king was manipulating the city mayors, it wouldn't be city states. In ancient Greece, each city-state had its own government system. The only thing each city-state had in common was a language and a nationality. If they weren't fighting foreigners, they were fighting each other.

In general, here's the feeling I get from the civics: It feels like someone came up with the civics and THEN created categories that "best" fit them. This creates incongruencies between the different options. Here's how it should work: create the categories, and then, like you said, create civics that answer the "questions" they ask.
 
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