Civics redesign

May be it will allow them to sacrifice slave for 10 production at normal speed?

This would be tied to the slave, you can't really tie unit abilities to a civic.

Keeping the Arrakis spice/paradise issue aside, thats really a separate discussion, what about the normal civics?
 
You know , i tried alot of them. Thats a good sign. I mean, with different position and leader they are usefull. This is good idea to adjust civics to improvements.

The thing is that tech tree is big, and in DW you need something half-vanilla-half ffh teching, that means specialisation and beelining necessary techs for religions/leaders civs.

The best way to see what is still necessary to add i think will be to write small table (ugh its not small, really :P) of leaders/civs versus civics. Then check their paths - paths which each civ will choose as optimal, and build some synergies on those paths as viable options for certain leader/civ , that have some synergy.
Those paths dictated by - Traits, UBs, UUs and Offworld Trade resource units.
Then i think it will be more less clear where are holes, what needs to be added, and what we have in abundance.
Sure - there should be no civic that will be universal. Each of them should be viable option in certain circumstances.


I dont know if i am clear enough, hope you understand.

Current civic balance - i find its quite balanced. Just need to check those aviable paths and see if there any option to add some synergy with solar farms/turbines. Example : Some civ should be good with that (Ix?). Ok, Ix... They love Offworld trade, and beeline Liquid Fuel (early military) then Technocrathy>Cybernetics. Hey! there is Refining techniques on that way. That means Turbines. (machines, robots, thinking turbnes)
They have no prefrence to SE/CE, thus thy can get some Economic civic, that will boost windtraps by 1 commerce (hammer?) , and turbines for 1 commerce. , Which unlocked at Liquid Fuel or Refining Techniques.
They are agressive, and they are organized, so Imperialistic civic will not provide great bonus.
Then there can be some Goverment civic ties with Cybernetics as well. I think Technocratic society of thinking machines will love some other type of goverment , than we have atm in Goverment civics list. Lets say Health is less issue for civs that abuse thinking machine factories , perhaps that goverment should provide extra health (Sterile society) and may be something related to unit building (training virtual programms, unit building speed?), so that will be special goverment civic for ones who beeline cybernetic path, and will provide some warmonger synergy and health at goverment slot.
Those just examples, please do not judge strictly, its just direction where we can find new civics/ uses and synergies.
 
Yeah, I've been thinking about trying to find a civic that would boost solar farms and/or turbines, but didn't think of anything good.
Do you think it would fit better balancewise as a labor or economy civic?
+1 commerce to solar farm and turbine1/2/3?
Maybe put it at Sand farms tech? Which is looking very empty these days.

I definitely tried to design civics in terms of nice synergies with leaders and combinations.
Meritocracy/Faufreluches/water discipline/arrakis spice can be pretty powerful, especially with a philosophical leader, run a specialist economy for tech-men, keep settling your newly generated great people, and use spice to boost commerce yield.
Or Hereditary rule/private property/planned economy/arrakis paradise, especially with financial trait, terraforming and building huge cities on cottage economies and keeping them all happy.

Duke Leto is one of the best rulers, since he can swing both ways, so to speak.
 
I think Labor is better actually , because , well, it fits there. The problem i dont know how to call it and to tie it plot-wise.

May be something related to Norms of Efficiency . Some strict demand to be perfect and efficient and scrupulous, and will boost all mech improvements like turbines and windtraps (+1 commerce to both) (need deeper insight and balance) Limitations of consumption, saving resources, anti - wastage concept. Aviable at Refining Techniques or Industrialism perhaps, ?

Edit: solar farms, and solar energy also fit into concept.

Also Some Sterile society as something in style of Technoicatic Goverment can also be viable choice (there are no civics that boost health btw, and perhaps there may be some need of one as mid game choice).
 
I disagree that a civic boosting turbines and solar farms should also boost windtraps, *especially* if it is a labor civic and so is not mutually exclusive with water discipline (which boosts windtraps).

Balance is the most important thing here.

The issue about categories isn't even where it fits logically, it is "which other powerful civics need to be mutually exclusive with this".

Refining techniques is really too late for a civic; part of the civic design was to have all the civics available by the midgame. Planned economy is the latest civic in the game I think, and only because it is *so* powerful (when combined with private property).
 
I disagree that a civic boosting turbines and solar farms should also boost windtraps, *especially* if it is a labor civic and so is not mutually exclusive with water discipline (which boosts windtraps).

Balance is the most important thing here.

The issue about categories isn't even where it fits logically, it is "which other powerful civics need to be mutually exclusive with this".

Refining techniques is really too late for a civic; part of the civic design was to have all the civics available by the midgame. Planned economy is the latest civic in the game I think, and only because it is *so* powerful (when combined with private property).
Well, i see your point and agree about windtraps.

About tehnology - it can be any....Desert Engeneering? Early and Seems fit? Just a diferent tech path abit, need both to activate before you beeline refining techniques.
other choice is Harsh Conditioning - seems bit off-way but thats cool. Fits concept of Labor that scurpulous and saves every penny and drop of any resource. Survival. Something remind me Final Frontier and Survival civ there (Halis?). Dune is harsh place and labor civic in concept of Survival / Hight Efficiency seems good enough.

May be it will be good to move this civic to Economy and boost +1 commerce windtraps too (makes sence) (again, Harsh Planet, Efficient, Scrupulous economy), denying use of Water Discipline, while Computerized Sterile civic (i dont know name) (clean society) (Technoctratic theme when all looks like Drug-store) may be labor civic providing light health bonus and light unit prod speed bonus, and may be some con.
 
Technoctratic theme when all looks like Drug-store

I don't think this is very Dune.

The most technological society is Ix, and their lower classes live in wretched conditions.
They literally engineer semi-human workers with no real initiative, who live only to obey.

There is no squeaky-clean Star Trek style benevolent society in the Dune Universe.

I think I'd rather leave it Labor (so its blocked by Faufreluches and Private Property).
Harsh conditioning is a military and espionage tech, it shouldn't be an economy/government one.

Sand farms is a potential place; CHOAM is another.

Names are hard.
"Energy efficiency"?
 
Because its Labor, so name should be related to labor. Something Discipline perhaps. Efficiency Norms.? Something with Scurpulous? Restricted Consumption? mmm Consumption Norms? CHOAM is good, because of idea to save every penny/ energy/ whatever resource. But still, it should characterize order of labor. Something ruled by Some office / Mercantile house that give strict limits of consumption, according to person social ladder status? Determination by allowance to use resources/goods?
 
I'm not sure that it needs to be thought of as an efficiency issue. It could easily just represent that electricity production is more valuable to the economy, or that the factions' generators are producing more electricity, through superior design or management.
 
I'm not sure that it needs to be thought of as an efficiency issue. It could easily just represent that electricity production is more valuable to the economy, or that the factions' generators are producing more electricity, through superior design or management.

Yesm,, but how electricity related to labor. Labor civic is order of labor arrangement within civ. Slavery, Private property (freedom), Serfdom.... All it is just social order within certain civ. Ladder, hierarchy. Remeber castes in vanilla? Its Labor civic too... Social Order.... So that should be related to some material/ resource access allowance distinction. Social order and electricity are not related enough. Some electricity built concept civic can be good Economic civic, but for labor.... its too economic and unhuman. Labor civic is about social order and relationship between high and low class within society.

Our version of this relationship can be some obidience to some strict norms of behaviour and consumption, and strict comission, which punish anyone who is not efficient and not follow laws (3rd reich allegory of all-around efficciency?)
 
Maybe this could represent denying the basic population anything significant in terms of electricity, to funnel the remainder off into government factories and such?

So the underclasses are heavily rationed in terms of their access to material goods.

A lot of Houses run their fiefs that way.
 
Maybe this could represent denying the basic population anything significant in terms of electricity, to funnel the remainder off into government factories and such?

So the underclasses are heavily rationed in terms of their access to material goods.

A lot of Houses run their fiefs that way.

Yes, that what i trying to tell you about. Strict norms of consumption and strict laws. Obidience to those laws, and something like 3rd reich germany Efficiency fanaticism. "If you weak, invalid , not efficient, not beneficial you should die/ be very low on ladder" concept. Lower ladder heavilly rationed in terms of access to material goods - completely agree.

CHOAM seems to be appropriate tech.
Saving each penny/ energy / whatever originates from.... greed and fear of over-consumption of vital resources.
 
http://forum.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2988

i found this interisting article by some guy from Dune novels forums.

Also there is term "Hydraulic Despotism" used by one of posters.
IIRC, FH also based Leto's absolute control over society based on the concept of "Hydraulic Despotism" in which ancient socieities, including China, at times had absolute control over water thus obtained control over the population. The obvious analogy is that Leto II also had absolute control over the spice which he used to control his empire.

Something like this name can be good name for this new civic we talking about.
 
Hydraulic despotism is about using control of a resource (historically water) to control the population by controlling access (if your farm doesn't get water, you can't grow crops and you die - so you do whatever the ruler says).

I'm not sure how well that fits with a civic that boosts commerce yields from turbines and solar farms. Hydraulic despotism is about threatening to deprive access to a single really key resource; keeping underclasses poor and with few consumer goods doesn't really qualify.
The nobles and power groups are controlled by Leto through rationing Spice; the underclasses never got any spice anyway. Leto's hydraulic despotism is about controlling the upper classes, not the lower classes.
 
just bonus to solar/turbine 1c is not enough , perhaps some more bonus and some con, to tie it, because it exist in dune universe, and there is no mention about it in game.

GD will not bonus water or whatever. It can be related to spice, and choam can be good tech for it.

In name of integrating into a game something Relevant to books you can make adjustments. What will bonus HD? nothing actually related to water or spice. Perhaps that will be its mali. And it might bonus something other, not relevant, as just "another solution" feature.
Can we increase bonus for Turbines and add some mali related to spice?
 
just bonus to solar/turbine 1c is not enough ... Can we increase bonus for Turbines and add some mali related to spice?

We had discussed this with no conclusion on some other thread. The problem is that there isn't much difference between solar farm and wind turbine. Can we add some civics or techs which make them develop differently? Otherwise they are partly redundant hammer bonus improvements, and there seems little reason to keep both.
 
We had discussed this with no conclusion on some other thread. The problem is that there isn't much difference between solar farm and wind turbine. Can we add some civics or techs which make them develop differently? Otherwise they are partly redundant hammer bonus improvements, and there seems little reason to keep both.

I think that This civic can bonus solar for 1 hammer and turbine for commerce (2?) , and mali spice using in some way or just some other improvements (like spice harvesters - -1 or -2 c for spice harvester tile/ spice worked tile in bfc)

This will make solars production improvement, turbines commercial improvements, and spice tiles bit less improtant but also less profitable), Its good for non Phi civs which have little of spice, and have alot of flat land and not enough mesas, and alot of wells. (which destroy spice)
This will also work good with paradise civic , and more than that it will work awesome lore book-wise - Becasue Leto II actually gone this path - Arrakis Paradise and Hydraulic Despotism.
Tech should be Sand Farms perhaps or even Academies.
 
These are separate issues.

There is one issue that is about differentiating turbines from solar farms, to make both interestig.
One way of doing this would be to allow turbines on mesa and flat, and solar farms being more valuable, but only available in sinks.

The issue discussed here though is different, it is to compare turbine/generators vs cottages vs specialists. At the moment, cottage economies or specialist economies are the dominant way to go. What we want to consider is having a turbine/generator economy as an alternative - or at least to encourage these to sometimes be more valuable than cottagespam.

just bonus to solar/turbine 1c is not enough
I disagree that a 1c bonus is not strong enough compared to other civics. Compare to slavery, which boosts mines, and you can only have a handful of mines, whereas you can have many turbines. With a 1c bonus, a level 2 turbine is 2h2c, which is a pretty respectable yield.

So my suggestions would be:
Mine Level 1/2/3, +2h/3h/4h, buildable only on mesa. +1 hammer from slavery.
Solar farm: 2h, buildable only in sink. +1 hammer from tech1, tech2 (need not be the same as now) +1c from CivicX. Expensive to build (worker time)
Turbine level 1/2/3. 1h1c/2h1c/3h1c. Builable on mesa and rock and rugged, but not in sink. Bring the requirement for turbine level 2 slightly earlier in tech tree, so it is similar (or same) as mine2.
Cottage, as current.

So we will get: windtrap/turbine/mines on mesa, cottage/solar farm on graben, cottage/turbine on rock/rugged.

Mine > turbine with slavery, but turbine > mine with civicX.

GD will not bonus water or whatever. It can be related to spice, and choam can be good tech for it.

In name of integrating into a game something Relevant to books you can make adjustments. What will bonus HD? nothing actually related to water or spice. Perhaps that will be its mali. And it might bonus something other, not relevant, as just "another solution" feature.
Can we increase bonus for Turbines and add some mali related to spice?

I don't understand what you're saying here.
I also don't understand why somethnig that is good for wind turbines would be bad for Spice.

I would also suggest that the Hydraulic Empire of Leto II is not something that makes any sense in the timeline we are talking about in this mod,around Dune and children of Dune. It is something that only exists in the far future, with Leto II the worm as absolute tyrant.
 
I think that This civic can bonus solar for 1 hammer and turbine for commerce (2?)

A 2c bonus for turbines would make a level 1 turbine, available very early, give 1h3c. That is far too much. You would risk the AI building those instead of windtraps, and having pathetic cities.

Becasue Leto II actually gone this path - Arrakis Paradise and Hydraulic Despotism.

This makes no sense to me. What does hydraulic despotism in terms of controllnig which nobles get spice have to do with building wind turbines?
 
I thinking about synergy and about concepts in books. Even if its in far future, that can have its version in game, as time-line prequisite.
why turbines/solar vs Spice? Because turbines and solar farms seems to be ecological, not extracting improvements. Ones that not deplete Arrakis.
Turbine can be just economical building being something like cottage with civicX , but less commerce and more production.
Solar can be just industrial improvement which aviable on plain terrain and is better than mine with civic X.
 
Back
Top Bottom