Civilisation Attributes open discussion

[Leoreth]

I have been thinking about the attributes of existing civilisations, such as their unique units, buildings and abilities, as well as their UHV goals, and what could be changed for them.

I don't want to steer the discussion too much by starting off with my own ideas, and instead start an open discussion about ideas you have for existing civs and what you would like to see changed.

Of course, open discussion also means that nothing here is bound to be implemented, but I really want to collect some ideas.

 

[Theophilos]

Some my random opinions:

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EGPYT UHV:

I have said this elsewhere but I think the 3rd uhv is basically a given due to the requirement to get culture buildings for 1st UHV, and all the culture you get from the wonders you build. All really need to do is use culture slider/get a great artist. I think it would be better to have a uhv like this to replace the 3rd one:

NEW KINGDOM
Aquire the New Kingdom lands by X date/turn through conquest or vassalization. (this means taking jerusalem and taking the phonecean starting place).

(this is assuming no other changes are made to the uhv)

Maybe replacing the 1st uhv instead of 3rd might be better IDK. I just think they are just too similar. If you plan to do one, you are likely to succeed in the other.


EGYPT UNIQUE UNITs:

Acquiring "riding", a very low level technology, obsoletes the unique unit. If possible, it should be looked for a way to stop this from happening. (horseman is very bad compared to the egypt chariot for fighting on that land vs invaders who have bonus against heavy cavalry, such as the "horseman"). IDK how to fix this though. Or maybe it is intended? IDK either way, currently made it so it is optimal to not research horseriding for as long as possible to build up unique units

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BYZANTINE UNIQUE POWER:

The ability to "bribe" barbarians does not seem to be very useable. You have to basically hope and pray a horse archer will land on top of your spy, and even then its not a great "pay off". IDK what to do about it. At first I thought it would be good to have it always allow to build units with coins, but then I realized can already do that with citizenship which byzantines probably like.

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CONGO UHV:

I think the 1st uhv is just too luck based. Played it so many times and if not much protestant spreads, you are just doomed. Or, the religion just doesnt come. Maybe it would be better to have it have X amount of pleased and maybe even x amount of friendly relations by X date. That would mean, you would still have to get in contact with civilizations, and converting to a common religion would aid in removing religion malus and improving relations. That is just a brainstorm IDK what a good solution is

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Those are just some random things I thought to myself while playing the mod. They might not be great ideas but at least it is something to start a conversation lol

 

[phoenixfire7]

EGPYT UHV:

I have said this elsewhere but I think the 3rd uhv is basically a given due to the requirement to get culture buildings for 1st UHV, and all the culture you get from the wonders you build. All really need to do is use culture slider/get a great artist. I think it would be better to have a uhv like this to replace the 3rd one:

NEW KINGDOM
Aquire the New Kingdom lands by X date/turn through conquest or vassalization. (this means taking jerusalem and taking the phonecean starting place).

(this is assuming no other changes are made to the uhv)

Maybe replacing the 1st uhv instead of 3rd might be better IDK. I just think they are just too similar. If you plan to do one, you are likely to succeed in the other.

Egypt have a conquest goal in the Civilizations reborn modmod and the 2 culture goals both count as 1. It would be interesting if this were implemented into the base game.

 

[Steb]

I think goals requiring to have a certain amount of gold at a certain date should be replaced. They're simply not fun: they require you to forgo science, culture, units, etc. in favor of gold, and then forbid you to use it until the victory date. Other goals asking you to accumulate stuff (e.g. culture) at least allow you to benefit from the stuff.

I think this concerns Byzantium, Carthage, the Inca, the Tamils, and Mali. For the sake of diversity, one of them could keep the goal as is—I suggest Mali, since it fits with the accounts of Mansa Musa's enormous wealth. But for the others, it would be easy to replace them with something like:

• Acquire X gold (you still need to generate wealth, but at least you can now do something with it)
• Acquire X gold from Y (Colombia has this where Y = "selling resources", the Vikings where Y = "pillaging, conquering, etc.")
• Spend X gold
• Spend X gold on Y (e.g. Y = "diplomacy". This is something I designed for the Muisca in Civilizations Reborn.)
• Perform X trade missions with Great Merchants

For Carthage, I really want to give them a Circumnavigation of Africa goal instead of the gold UHV.

 

[1SDANi]

Egypt have a conquest goal in the Civilizations reborn modmod and the 2 culture goals both count as 1. It would be interesting if this were implemented into the base game.

The conquest goal is only interesting with the Nubians IMO. If DoC were to get an additional UHV, it should probably be something else.

Indonesia's 3rd UHV NEEDS a rework. It's grindy and not even that difficult. Maybe something Muslim/Religion related?

Also, I said it before and I'll say it again, I have no clue what would be a good replacement, but America's UP railroads civic choices really hard. Discussion?

 

[KeeperOT7Keys]

I think goals requiring to have a certain amount of gold at a certain date should be replaced. They're simply not fun: they require you to forgo science, culture, units, etc. in favor of gold, and then forbid you to use it until the victory date. Other goals asking you to accumulate stuff (e.g. culture) at least allow you to benefit from the stuff.

I think this concerns Byzantium, Carthage, the Inca, the Tamils, and Mali. For the sake of diversity, one of them could keep the goal as is—I suggest Mali, since it fits with the accounts of Mansa Musa's enormous wealth. But for the others, it would be easy to replace them with something like:

• Acquire X gold (you still need to generate wealth, but at least you can now do something with it)
• Acquire X gold from Y (Colombia has this where Y = "selling resources", the Vikings where Y = "pillaging, conquering, etc.")
• Spend X gold
• Spend X gold on Y (e.g. Y = "diplomacy". This is something I designed for the Muisca in Civilizations Reborn.)
• Perform X trade missions with Great Merchants

For Carthage, I really want to give them a Circumnavigation of Africa goal instead of the gold UHV.

I agree, also another solution could be adding some kind of incentive to creating gold. currently it only functions as savings and it is counter productive in game sense.
(Idk how is it right now but) if we allow civs to get positive % bonus from open borders, then it might incentivize saving gold until you meet with the other civs and then spending it to get a fast but late science boost.
I think this can historically model some civs like Mali or Inca, so you would save your gold until contacting Europeans.

 

[Logoncal]

Can i just point out Brazil's 1st UHV is called Golden Law and it requires you to get Slave Plantations.

 

[Leoreth]

Suggest a better name then.

 

[Leoreth]

I sort of see the point about the gold accumulation goals. It really depends though, like some culture goals they are a good mechanism to delay scientific progress even in the hands of a capable player.

I have played Phoenicia recently and agree that their gold goal is very out of place. I have some ideas on how to restructure their UHV already.

When it comes to Byzantium, maybe it's an interesting idea to combine the complaints about their gold goal and their uninteresting UP? I could imagine giving Byzantium a new UP that gives some sort of benefit based on the amount of gold in their treasury. That seems fitting considering how the reputation of the Byzantine Empire was strongly based on their wealth. You could go a number of ways with this, for example +1 trade route in capital per 1000 gold in treasury.

Lastly, please don't bring up modmods in this thread. I ignore those threads for a reason.

 

[1SDANi]

Lastly, please don't bring up modmods in this thread. I ignore those threads for a reason.

Also, as pointed out above, modmodmods generally make so many interlocking changes to the base modmod of DoC that implementing a single change by its lonesome can end up with a completely different effect than it does in its source.

In other words, unless you're suggesting Leoreth merge DoC with a modmod, it's generally a better idea to suggest general concepts from the modmod that you liked rather than the mechanics specifically, especially since this is a discussion thread and is more about gathering interesting ideas and gauging community interest than actually hammering out something to specifically implement into the modmod

 

[Steb]

I sort of see the point about the gold accumulation goals. It really depends though, like some culture goals they are a good mechanism to delay scientific progress even in the hands of a capable player.

I have played Phoenicia recently and agree that their gold goal is very out of place. I have some ideas on how to restructure their UHV already.

When it comes to Byzantium, maybe it's an interesting idea to combine the complaints about their gold goal and their uninteresting UP? I could imagine giving Byzantium a new UP that gives some sort of benefit based on the amount of gold in their treasury. That seems fitting considering how the reputation of the Byzantine Empire was strongly based on their wealth. You could go a number of ways with this, for example +1 trade route in capital per 1000 gold in treasury.

Lastly, please don't bring up modmods in this thread. I ignore those threads for a reason.

I'm not opposed to a goal that forces you to accumulate gold if there's some good reason for it. If a civilization was known to prioritize its treasury to the point they'd fall behind in other respects (e.g. mercantilism in European countries?), then sure, let's have a goal like this! Or if it synergizes well with the UP, etc. But let's avoid these goals if the idea is to show that a country was successful in trade or wealthy in general.

I agree that for Byzantium it would be interesting to link the UP to the UHV somehow.

(Regarding the modmodmods, I agree they're not relevant here. I mentioned the Muisca goal design because that is functionally equivalent to suggesting such a design, but with the added benefit that it's been implemented, so we know it can be done, and interested people can go check it out. I'm not suggesting that elements from Civilization Reborn should be imported into the mod or anything like that.)

 

[TsarAndreas]

What about a goal that links to income from trade routes?

When I play, I occasionally check where my trade route income is coming from so I have a rough idea who I should like or who I can ignore. But if a UHV was linked to generating a certain amount of income through trade?

It might focus a player to:
- use certain civics
- prioritise certain buildings (e.g. post offices)
- be nicer to certain civilisations
- work harder to maintain open borders/line of sight

An example UHV could be:
- generate 1000 commerce from trade by [date]
- generate 500 commerce from trade with 5 trading partners

I’m not exactly sure which UHVs this would apply to specifically, but a commerce oriented goal might make players more interested in an area of the game that is potentially taken for granted or poorly understood.

Apologies for the lack of specificity!

 

[Hickman888]

Babylon:
The 2nd and 3rd goals (make Babylon the most populous city, make Babylon the most cultured city) can easily be combined into a single goal: Make Babylon the world's largest and most cultured city in 850 BC.

This leaves us room for a third, more ambitious goal, "Babylonian Captivity: Control two cities on the Mediterranean" (Jerusalem and Sur).

Korea: My issue with the Korean goals is that 2 of the 3 of them, build a Buddhist and Confucian cathedral and be the first to research printing, are essentially just mini versions of the Chinese goals (build 4 cathedrals and be the first to research 4 technologies, including printing). I like historical goals that are unique for every nation, so to that end, I propose two new historical goals for Korea:

1. Settle three different great people in your cities by 1200 AD
2. Construct Cheomseongdae by 700 AD

Also, I'm not sure if a Korean Great Prophet can use his "Great Mission" to spread Confucianism in Korea, but if not, that should be allowed. As Korea gameplay stands currently, you not only need to conquer a city with Confucianism in it in order to spread it back to your core cities to build Cheomseongdae, you also need to control two cities outside the peninsula in order to construct your cathedrals. I think my proposed changes would create a more historically accurate Korean game, while maintaining a challenge. The "Sink 20 ships" goal is fine.

Byzantium:
There was talk in this thread about removing goals that require the player to stockpile gold, because that can be boring. Personally, I don't mind these goals, and my Byzantium game was interesting, as I used my Great non-merchant-People to bulb new technologies while I kept my research at 0% to stockpile gold. I did remember Constantinople spent most of my Byzantine game building the Theodesian Walls and the Hagia Sophia, as that city has relatively poor . So here is my idea:

Change the first historical goal from "Have 5000 in 1000 AD" to "Construct the Hagia Sophia, Theodesian Walls, and Mount Athos by 1000 AD". Byzantiums unique power is changed to "Crossroads of the World: For every 1000 in the treasury, your capital receives +10% " (alternatively, +20% wonder production). This way, the player is still incentivized to stockpile gold to a certain extent, but the player can decide how much they want to spend on boosting vs researching more technologies.

Indonesia:
I'm still playing through this civilization, so I don't have any strong recommendations. But personally, I feel that two population goals, with the final one being so far ahead from the 2nd goal (1500 to 1940) isn't great. Especially because, unlike military, infrastructure, or technology goals, controlling 11% of the worlds population doesn't really require proactive gameplay, it just requires a lot of "End Turn". I'm with 1SDAN about changing the goal to involve something about converting to Islam.

 

[merijn_v1]

Personally, I like it if a civ has 3 UHV that cover a aspect of the game. Similar UHV with a different date can be combined, like the 1st and 3rd Egyptian UHV. This opens up room for a third UHV. That gives a 3rd aspect you have to focus on, which I think will make the game more interresting. I don't have suggestions for replacement UHV (yet).

I don't know for sure if a Byzantine UP like "for every X gold in treasure" will really incentivise the player to accumulate much gold, at least not with the slider. With an UP like this I think I would have research rates as normal, but try to put out as much great merchants as possible to accumulate gold. But this is not bad per se.

 

[Leoreth]

What about a goal that links to income from trade routes?

When I play, I occasionally check where my trade route income is coming from so I have a rough idea who I should like or who I can ignore. But if a UHV was linked to generating a certain amount of income through trade?

It might focus a player to:
- use certain civics
- prioritise certain buildings (e.g. post offices)
- be nicer to certain civilisations
- work harder to maintain open borders/line of sight

An example UHV could be:
- generate 1000 commerce from trade by [date]
- generate 500 commerce from trade with 5 trading partners

Good points, I have also thought about goals that rely on trade routes. There are many interesting interactions here.

Byzantium:
There was talk in this thread about removing goals that require the player to stockpile gold, because that can be boring. Personally, I don't mind these goals, and my Byzantium game was interesting, as I used my Great non-merchant-People to bulb new technologies while I kept my research at 0% to stockpile gold. I did remember Constantinople spent most of my Byzantine game building the Theodesian Walls and the Hagia Sophia, as that city has relatively poor . So here is my idea:

Change the first historical goal from "Have 5000 in 1000 AD" to "Construct the Hagia Sophia, Theodesian Walls, and Mount Athos by 1000 AD". Byzantiums unique power is changed to "Crossroads of the World: For every 1000 in the treasury, your capital receives +10% " (alternatively, +20% wonder production). This way, the player is still incentivized to stockpile gold to a certain extent, but the player can decide how much they want to spend on boosting vs researching more technologies.

True, that's a cool idea that addresses a real problem.

 

[Steb]

I have one last thing to say about gold accumulation goals: the timing of the goal relative to the rest of the UHV matters. If you accumulate gold early, complete the goal, and then get to spend your treasury while you work towards the other goals, that can be a lot of fun. I'm reminded of Japan, whose cultural goal cripples them early on but then creates an interesting dynamic of catching up. So really, what I'm against is gold accumulation goals that end the UHV. In those cases, you're really just incrementing a number while nothing much happens.

 

[1SDANi]

I have one last thing to say about gold accumulation goals: the timing of the goal relative to the rest of the UHV matters. If you accumulate gold early, complete the goal, and then get to spend your treasury while you work towards the other goals, that can be a lot of fun. I'm reminded of Japan, whose cultural goal cripples them early on but then creates an interesting dynamic of catching up. So really, what I'm against is gold accumulation goals that end the UHV. In those cases, you're really just incrementing a number while nothing much happens.

I personally had a lot of fun with Carthage trying to move Great Merchants as far east as I could before time ran out to eek out the last few thousand gold I needed left. IMO Carthage is in that really cool position where getting the most out of Great Merchants is a massive risk-reward game with how far away the best cities are and how many barbarians are between you and them.

 

[BaneFire]

Echoing some of the thoughts already in this thread
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Americans:
Current UP is way too railroaded towards their particular civics, I understand that's kind of the point of the USA but still. Maybe something like "Cultural Hegemony: x% increase in trade route output with civs that have the same civics as you and that you have more culture than"
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Argentinians:
Merge UHV1 and UHV2 so it's either "6 golden ages by 2000", or maybe something more like "4 golden ages by 1980". New UHV3 should be something about the relative prosperity of the Argentine economy in the early 1900s, unsure what.
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Aztecs:
UHV3 is super boring. Make it something like "Sunset Invasion: Capture one European city", or "Quetzalcoatl's Wrath: Raze x European colonies in the Americas"
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Brazilians:
I know Brazil gets a lot of hate but I love it. I think Golden Law is fine, it implies the law is golden because of how many slaves it freed.
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Byzantines:
I disagree with any UHV1 that is about making money, the Byzantines just aren't a civ that is about economics. Instead I would make it about the pre-Orthodox/Catholic split. Something like:
UP: "Patriarchate of Constantinople: +1GP points/turn in the capital for every Orthodox city, +2 if you hold the Orthodox holy city, +3 if you hold Orthodox and Catholic holy city"
UHV1: "Convert x cities to Orthodox before 1000" or "Ensure that there are twice as many Orthodox cities as Catholic cities before 1000"
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Congolese:
UHV1: "Bastion of Christianity: Control at least x Christian (Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant) cities in Africa by 1800"
UHV2: "Sell slaves to x different civilisations by 1800"
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English
UHV2: "Have the largest navy in the world for x consecutive turns" or if that's too easy "Have the largest navy in the world that is at least twice larger than the second largest navy in the world, for x consecutive turns"
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Inca
UHV2: "Mountain Civilisation: Have an average city population of x by 1700"
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Phoenicia
UHV2: "Raze Rome"
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Russia
UH3: "Have 5 friendly vassals"
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Tamils
UHV1: "Lost Continent of Lemuria: Discover Australia by 800AD"
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Other people's suggestions will fill in the gaps

 

[TsarAndreas]

Echoing some of the thoughts already in this thread

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English
UHV2: "Have the largest navy in the world for x consecutive turns" or if that's too easy "Have the largest navy in the world that is at least twice larger than the second largest navy in the world, for x consecutive turns"
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I love this. It immediately gives you the choice of going for the peaceful option "build, build, build" or the warmonger option "seek and destroy". It also gives England a reason to care what the other Western European nations are up to.

Brilliant suggestion.

 

[urbestfriend]

I really don't like Indonesia's UP. it's very boring, the player can do almost nothing to influence it, and doesn't affect how the player, well, plays the game. Maybe give them a power related to religion spread after the renaissance since as of right now, Islam doesn't really spread to the area like it should in my experience. Maybe something like reduced unhappiness from religions and a religion spreading in your core spreads it to all core cities, or can switch religions without anarchy.