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Civilisation Attributes open discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    Recently I've been thinking about the South American civs and how to improve them. Here I will focus Brazil, but soon I hope to share some ideas for Argentina and Colombia as well.

    While I consider that in general the mod does a good job with the Brazil (particularly in gameplay terms), I see several issues regarding historical and uniqueness aspects that I try to discuss here. I tried to be concise, but I was not successful, so that's the reason of the spoiler tag in the bellow section:

    UHVs
    Spoiler :


    One of issues already stressed here is the first UHV, named Golden Law that requires several slave plantations and pastures by 1880. There are both gameplay and historical reasons for change it. Slavery was an essential element in Brazilian history and society and have deep impacts even today. Giving its importance, I agree that we should represent it somehow, but I think that the UHV is not the ideal tool for it. Going back to the game, typically a Brazilian game will involve much trading slaves with other civs since the start, something that usually involves a degree of luck - since usually the African civs are already collapsed and generally you don't have a reliable source for it. This gameplay aspect led me to hunt native units in Africa, including taking cities there, to ensure that I will have at least some of them until the UHV. (Please note that it has been some time that I've last played with Brazil, but I feel that nothing much relevant regarding it changed since).

    The problem here, in my vision, is both the luck factor and the ahistorical behavior encouraged by the UHV. Historically speaking, the most intense period of slave trade was before Brazilian independence, during the 18th century. In 1831 - only 9 years after the declaration of independence - Brazil issued the first law prohibiting the slave trade, largely result of British pressure. The law had little practical effect by then, but the growing external (British) and abolitionist pressure in this issue led to increased repression to slave trade until 1850, when the transatlantic slave trade was officially (and in practice) abolished; slavery, though, only ended in 1888, when the last slaves were formally freed in Brazil. So, going back to the game, we have very few turns where the slave trade would be historically accurate. And Brazil never maintained a military force in Africa to ensure the transatlantic flow of slaves.

    I thought about some alternative UHVs, but honestly I didn't come with something very unique or particularly interesting to replace it. Two ideas popped in my mind: the founding of Brasília (1960), which was a major effort for Brazil, and the (until at least recently) international diplomatic reputation and soft power that Brazil have. The former could be included on UHV3, perhaps with additional requirements (certain culture or commerce values/outputs) and changing the deadline to 1960. The latter option could be somewhat similar to German UHV3, requiring positive relations with X civilizations (particularly other Latin American ones) and something related to the UN (Brazil was somewhat important in the UN creation, something reflected in the fact that Brazilian representative always make the first speech in the UN General Assembly).

    A minor note in the UHVs names: the first, Golden Law, is not quite good as already pointed. I think that even better than the Logoncal's option is just the Monarchy or Empire, which are the names more commonly used by the historiography. Pindorama is sure interesting (it is Brazil's name in the indigenous languages for those who don't know); a minor correction (if you want proper Portuguese) for the second UHV is Maracanã (with a "~").



    UB: I think that the Fazenda is a good choice for Brazil, because these estates were not only common in all Brazil but also were the organizational basis of Brazilian society until the 20th century. Being said that, the fazenda has its roots more in colonial times than in independent Brazil. Also, perhaps using the name Casa Grande (literally "Big House", which was the main landowner's residence) may be better, since fazenda is commonly used as the name of all large estates and rural properties and not a particular building. I would also slightly change the effect: an increased (additional to the current existent) commerce yield to plantations and possibly other improvements if the player runs Slavery of Colonialism civics. That way we have an elegant way of representing the importance of slavery in Brazilian history and encourages the player to behave historically, maintaining these civics in late game without relying in luck or invading Africa to obtain new slaves.

    If you want a more modern UB, I think about two options: the Sambódromo (the special arena for carnival and large events that most large cities have; replaces the obsolete Arena but is available late in game. There is a possible art available in History Rewritten as the carnaval) or the churrascaria (a typical restaurant that serves Brazilian barbecue and food; I'm not sure about what building would replace or if we do have an adequate art).


    UU: While I think that the madeireiro is gameplay-wise adequate as UU, I honestly think that it is quite poor representing something unique for Brazil. Although deforestation was a common issue during all Brazilian history and still is, only in the first decades of colonization the logging economy (of brazilwood) was important to Brazil.

    Nonetheless, it may be somewhat difficult to choose an excellent UU replacement. I honestly don't see other good civilian UUs options. Military UU also presents some difficulties: Brazilian military forces were and are largely based in the Western military traditions, which are similar to many other civs in game. Civ 5 and 6 respectively chose the Pracinha (the nickname of Brazilian soldiers that fought WW2 in Italy) and the battleship class Minas Gerais as UU, but neither were truly unique Brazilian: the former were trained, equipped and fought under US command and model; the latter was British-built. Ironically, probably the most unique unit would be the bandeirante, a colonial unit that in game is a Portuguese UU.

    Fortunately, Brazil was one of the few Latin American countries that was able to develop a national arms industry, which offers us some possible (very) late-game UUs. There are two options more easily available here in download database: the Tucano and the Astros II. The first, which has art here, is a light attack aircraft that could be a very cheap replacement for one of the later aircraft (Jet Fighter or Stealth Bomber) units with worse stats. The latter, that has art here, is a replacement for the Mobile Artillery that also can be cheaper, but without the malus in combat strength. Finally, a last option is the Infantaria de Selva, the renowned jungle specialized corps of the Brazilian Army that operate mainly in the Amazon; the only problem here is that I couldn't find a good art for it, but we can easily make one with a reskinned Marine or Paratrooper with bonus fighting in jungle/rainforest tiles.


    One last suggestion for Brazil is to change some of the leaders civics preferences. Pedro II's favorites (Slavery and Catholicism) are ok (although could be Monarchy) representing 19th century Brazil, but Vargas favorite civics (Free Enterprise and Catholicism) seems weird to me. His policies, which resulted in major changes in Brazil's economy and society during 1930s-1950s, were quite the opposite of Free Enterprise: he favored economic nationalism, state-sponsored industrialization, and social welfare. I think that his favorite civic should be changed for this reason, probably to Nationhood or Central Planning.

    Edit: corrected the name/link of the Tucano. Originally I quoted the more modern version (Super Tucano) of the aircraft, but considering the art available, service history and production it is better to use the older one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  2. Cacaso

    Cacaso Chieftain

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    The "Sambódromo" would be an excellent UB, it could replace the arena, in addition to the natural effect of +2 happiness, it could add + 1 / + 2 :gold: and + 1 / + 2 :culture: , (to represent wealth that tourism attracts during carnival and its cultural relevance)
    In relation to changing the name "Fazenda" to "Casa grande" I also agree. UB "Churrascaria" would also be cool.
    Regarding UU, I think that due to the history of lesser Brazilian military involvement, a civilian UU would be more appropriate, so I think that "Madeireiro" is perfect.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
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  3. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Yeah, as much as I'm personally frustrated by how gold/culture goals can delay scientific progess and I don't find them very interesting for the most part, I understand the reasoning in many cases. For example, ignoring the gold goal, human player Mali can become a scientific powerhouse, possibly even outstripping European civs in many cases. At the end of the day, it's a question of what the civilization in question prioritized and how they advanced. IRL Mali became very wealthy but by most considerations stagnated technologically so to encourage the player to prioritize wealth is reasonable in this case. If we're going to take issue with a gold or culture goal it should be in the case that it unduely interferes with a civ that should also advance significantly scientifically.
     
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Yeah. I guess for Mali it would be interesting to change it to gift X gold to other civs? Considering how Mansa Musa is famous for spending enough money in Egypt to tank their economy. It's functionally the same but feels more like you're actually working your way towards something, and you get at least some diplo bonuses out of it.
     
  5. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Chieftain

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    That makes it even worse because you wouldn't be able to use the money the way you choose
     
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  6. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Remove the 'gift' requirement, so that you can use it to e.g. buy technologies?
     
  7. Caesar Augustus

    Caesar Augustus Prince

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    I mean it might not make it much better but it definitely doesn't make it worse.
     
  8. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    If you remove the gift requirement it is exactly the current UHV. Or you mean rather than gift it is "Spend X gold"?
     
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  9. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    If we go with the Sambódromo UB, I really liked your proposed effect. The building itself could be available with Tourism.

    About the UU, I'm still unsure about the madeireiro because it does not represent an uniqueness of Brazil. I will not go Königsberg here, but again, logging was only economically relevant during the first decades of colonization. As you know, deforestation in Brazil was, and still is, mostly done to open areas for pasture or agricultural fields and not exploitation of wood. The wood profits are somewhat subsidiary here because the whole point of the deforestation is to make available land for cattle or cash crops (traditionally sugar cane, recently soy). If we think about, it makes more sense to have an UU called "lumberjack" for Canada (considering its economic relevance and cultural impact) than the madeireiro to Brazil.

    I agree that having an UU useful for the UHVs is desirable, but again I don't think that the madeireiro should be the UU and honestly don't see any other good civilian UU candidates. If we change the UHV1 to the diplomatic goal that I've proposed, a cheap military unit like the ones presented above could be useful in the sense that you could produce several and gift it to other civs in order to improve relations. Additionally, this would also have the fortunate result of representing the fact that both these military vehicles were successful exports in 1980s and early 1990s.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  10. catacau

    catacau Chieftain

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    UU for Brazil: Great football player, replace great artists
     
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  11. DanLT3

    DanLT3 Warlord

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    Brazil wins World Cup results in a Golden Age. And if they loose any game it will result in a Recession.
     
  12. Crimean Lord

    Crimean Lord Warlord

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    P means "Perfect SUGGESTION" - there are so many features for such units (for example they could combine great artist and bussinesman's bonuses)
     
  13. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Chieftain

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    ENGLAND -
    UHV 1 - I think that it would be more historically accurate for a goal like colonise every continent by 1770 (4 or 5 in North America, 1 or 2 in South Central and Caribbean, 4 in Asia and 1 in the other 2) and imperialise them by 1860 (At least 8 in every continent apart from South America which only needs 4 or 5) Plus maybe the Cape to Cairo railway at a similar date.
    Starting situation - with the colonise every continent goal being easier, it gives a chance to make them weaker in the early game. This can represent how they didn't sart colonising until later - in the current game you can conquer the Inca and Aztec empires. 3 ways to weaken them early on
    1 - Start with less technologies
    2 - Start at 1066
    3 - Start as England and have to conquer Scotland and Ireland. Start with 1 or 2 settlers to settle London and possibly Plymouth and not a big enough army to conquer the indepent cities in Dublin and Edinburgh that can spawn so that England have to fight them rather than settling.
    UHV 3 - With these extra weaknesses this goal may need to be changed if it is too difficult. It's called the industrial revolution but it doesn't feel like it because for me it feels like industrialising once you start powering your cities so maybe there could be a goal like power 10 cities by 18XX AD along with the technological goal.
    I do like this idea for UHV 2 or maybe even have a larger navy than all other countries combined except you don't have to do it for mutliple turns in a row, it can be any turn by 18XX AD.
     
  14. Steb

    Steb King

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    I agree with these. The colonization goal really should be about a full-fledged British Empire. It should be challenging and intense.

    I've never been a fan of the "Be the first to discover eight Renaissance and eight Industrial technologies" goal and similar goals for Germany and Japan, not least because their wording is ambiguous. But I also don't find them super fun. They're easy if you're a tech leader, tedious if you're matched with other civs (you have to carefully choose which techs to pursue). I'm not sure what it would take to make them better. But for England, I think a more thematic Industrial Revolution goal could be better—something about increased production, powering cities, coal resources? It can include a tech component too. I also don't really like that the Renaissance is involved in the goal—England and Britain weren't centers of the Renaissance, though I guess you could make a case for the Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution. Still, I think the focus should really be on the industrial era.
     
  15. Orbii

    Orbii Warlord

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    Agreed with these comments --- the "first to discover X technologies in Y era" are challenging, but can be quite tedious. I have also always been fond of the "strongest navy" suggestions for UHV2 as well. So rather than a "largest navy" goal where number of ships is important, both the quantity and quality of ships matters, which reflects how the Royal Navy historically was both the largest navy in the world as well as the first to reach some incredibly notable technological breakthroughs (i.e. the Dreadnought). This builds an implicit tech goal into UHV2, and I have always found goals with implicit objectives to be really rewarding (e.g. Iran's UHV1 (OB with European nations) is essentially an implicit goal to war the Ottomans, as the Ottomans generally war Europeans and you get free OB with mutual nations at war despite relations).
     
  16. Dragonxander PR

    Dragonxander PR Emperor of the Drakons

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    Maybe the strongest navy can be measured by adding up the base strengths of the ships, is that doable?
     
  17. Rogue_Trooper

    Rogue_Trooper Chieftain

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    Thank you Leoreth (and others) for creating and continuing to develop such a fantastic game! I've been playing for a long time and lurking in the background here.

    I really like these ideas about England. I think a UHV should revolve around the Industrial Revolution. Discover steam engine by ..., acquire .. sheep and ... cotton resources before ...., have a city that produces the most hammers for a 100 year period from .... to ....

    We needs the new map for this to work though. There's no "industrial midlands and the north" in the current map - it's too small.
     
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  18. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Chieftain

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    I think there could even be a goal about making London the world's largest city (as part of the industrial revolution goal?) which would make you need Chemistry and Consumerism so that you can build a supermarket.
     
  19. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Having to conquer Scotland and Ireland would be much better than the implied unity that the game currently portrays
     
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  20. LukeAtmey

    LukeAtmey Chieftain

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    America UHV suggestion:

    I'd suggest tweaking the wonder requirement to include World Trade Center instead of the United Nation. I understand the UN have their headquarters in New York, but I feel building the WTC specifically would be more of an American thing than founding the intergovernmental UN. Naturally it could see the expiration date for that UHV goal extend to 1970s, giving a little bit more breathing room. The one potential downside I see here though is it could again further encourage the player to stick to the civics that support the Americans current UP, but then again maybe that's the strategy that's meant for the US?
     

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