Civilisation Attributes open discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. Cacaso

    Cacaso Chieftain

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    I really hadn't seen this UHV from CIV turkic, but it is very rare for UHVs to require a capital change and in the case of CIV Brasil it has a lot of historical sense besides having synergy with the suggested UP proposal.

    and also the fact that the icon of the resource "Hit football events" has the ball of the UEFA Champioms League, besides that it is very difficult to be able to finish all the 3 wonders necessary in UHV of Brazil, generally Wembley is one of those that England it almost always starts to build before you because of the speed of tech acquisition.
    in relation to requiring to build X stadiums it would be a good option as well, football is a very striking cultural feature of Brazil abroad.
     
  2. WhiteEyes

    WhiteEyes Chieftain

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    The Turks are the weirdest civ we currently have. They have weird UU and UP. They cover a really big area, but never united under single state(except under Mongols). I think there's a lot of their aspect needing attention right now.

    Historical Area
    Most Russian/European Turkic territories like Bulgaria, the Pontic steppe, Volga, Crimea, and Sibir are missing from the historical area. Are the ingame Turks only represent the Gokturk and Seljuk empires?
    Will there be a separate civ for the Western steppe people, or they will simply be barbarians?

    City Names
    Lot of tiles in Central Asia have no city name right now. Some important Turkic cities(which I found randomly in Wikipedia) currently missing on the map including:
    Balanjar, Samandar, Qashliq, Tyumen, Pliska, Sredets(Sofia), Bakhcisaray, Balasagun, Turkistan, Qirim, Tmutarakan and Astrakhan.
    Some would overlap with the existing Turkic name though. I'm no expert at geography so I can't make a proper city name suggestion yet.

    On the CityNameManager, Turks should also have iLangMongolian to make up for their lack of city name especially around Altai and Eastern Asia.

    UU
    I love the Oghuz, but i also feel bad to use them. Jumping from one friendly city to another into deeper territory, pillaging and kidnaping their workers, then hide back into their cities feels more like a spy than a barbaric raid.
    But removing their infiltrator ability will make the UHV1 impossible though. And I'm not really fond of their name, a generic name like "Oghuz Archer" or "Oghuz Raider" would still sound better than just their ethnicity.

    Anyway, I have an idea for secondary Turkic UU.
    Nomad (replaces Settler)
    Movement: 3
    Strength: 4, but can only defend
    Can build Pasture faster than Worker / Cities built on resources also give pasture yield
    Also spawns as barbarian in Central Asia(and Sahara?) and can be captured with the Turkic UP

    The first Turkic UHV suggests the player to recreate the Gokturk Khaganate at its glory in addition to western Turkic states like Khazar, which means you need to settle 5 to 7 or more cities.
    But the poor, unimproved lands of Transoxania(in 600AD start) means you cannot build enough settlers in time, leaving the only viable but ahistoric strategy is pushing your armies through India and Middle East too early.
    Having fast, capturable Settler replacements not only help you settle the 6% area early, but also portray the "unifying tribes" vibe of the Turks without the need of placing independent cities. They can also become free Worker source for other civ, or when the Turks under peacetime.
    I give them minor strength so they are slightly harder to capture(turn into worker) by other civs. I mean, you are fighting not just stray worker but a whole nomadic community.
    I also suggest the pasture ability so the workers can focus on building roads and plantation(and to work that Orduqent camel tile :rolleyes:).

    Tech
    Give them Politics, so they can choose Elective on the first turn and to give them a bit tech trading advantage over Arabs.

    Should we also reduce their Research Cost modifier a bit? Mongols have 90 ResearchCost so the Turks deserve 100 at most.
    It won't hurt to give them better tech rate. The Turks were also part of the Islamic Golden Age, so having your tech rate go rocketing once you control the Middle East is still historically makes sense.

    In a more extreme suggestion, i would suggest separating the Turk into two civs. The nomadic Turks will represent Cuman, Bulgar, and Tatar in addition to Gokturk. And a new Turkoman civ to represent Turkestan-based states like Seljuk, Timurid, and Uzbek.
    This way the Turks could have most of the Eurasian Steppes in their border in 900AD, getting split eventually into three big empires(Cumania, Seljuk, and Mongolia) in 1200AD, then getting invaded and respawn in Eastern Europe as the Golden Horde.
     
  3. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    I'm not particularly against these changes or spliting the Turks except in regard to the unit named Nomad, since the term is so generic and can be applied to so many other civs.

    But still in the topic about nomads, I think it would be really interesting if we could discuss possible special mechanics/attributes unique for these nomadic civilizations, making their gameplay experience unique and very distinct from the more urbanized ones. Note that the issue of how to properly represent nomadic peoples/empires in our games is an old question debated within the Civ community, since the very core of the series gameplay is actually building and managing cities to grow your empire and win the game.

    Mind you that I don't have any concrete proposal to discuss here about the topic and certainly would be a huge undertaking, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to throw the idea to start a brainstorm discussion here.
     
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Yes I agree, and I have some ideas already, but if so it would be best to make a separate thread for that.
     
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  5. Regulas021

    Regulas021 Chieftain

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    Hey all, couple of wacky ideas here

    Agreed about Canada's UU feeling a little out of place. In pursuing Canada's UHV, or in pursuit of just about anything Canada is inclined to do, the Corvette won't see much action. I propose...

    Unique Unit: Diplomat (Replaces Spy).

    Can do all the same missions as a spy in the base game, but without incurring any penalties when the mission fails. Additionally, it can perform a mission that increases your favorability with the host nation (at the cost of "espionage points"). This would help Canada a bit with their UHV, discourage war like play, and allow for some unique influence to keep things interesting as you wait for more wars to pop off.

    Additionally, people have talked about switching the Canadian UP to the US, which I support. The effect of immigrants generating great people could certainly apply to either country, but it's probably had a larger impact on the US overall, and would make room for an idea I had (no idea on the practicality here):

    Unique Power: Diplomacy

    Allows Canada to make trade deals and other "Nation to Nation" interaction with Independent Nations (Open Borders, Negotiating Peace treaties, etc). Maybe this could be represented in game by the diplomat UU.
    In addition, allows Canada to move units through Independent Nation Territory without declaring war.

    Alright! Moving on then

    For the US, I agree with previous posters that the Pioneer is an outstanding UU. No changes here.

    The Minuteman, however, does feel out of place, both in not performing the historical role, and in being generally unhelpful for the US UHV. Suggestion

    Unique Unit: Carrier Battlegroup (Replaces Carrier, or alternatively, doesn't replace any unit, and is made available with Power Projection)

    40 Strength, Can Bombard, 3 air unit slots, 3 transport slots. I grant it's a big upgrade to the base unit, however it will come quite late in the game, and even with this combo it won't come close to the impact units like the Legion have. This unit would be big for aiding US players in the final steps of the UHV and be very reflective of American foreign policy in the 20th/21st century.

    A different alternative for the US UP:

    Unique Power: Immigrant Labor (someone else can probably name this a bit better, lol)

    Immigrants from the old world also spawn workers in the target city. This would be a major boost to the US during the 18th/19th centuries as they're playing catch up on industrializing the interior, and would be quite representative of the immigrant labor pool that did so much of the hard labor the US benefited from, such as the rail roads.

    Just a few ideas to mull over. Don't know how practical some of them are from a coding perspective. Thanks for reading!
     
  6. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    Another alternative for the Canadian UP could be immigrants generating culture and/or less happiness and stability penalty for foreign culture (reflective of multiculturalism, or at least as it's normally viewed). Definitely agree that the current GP points UP probably fits better with the US.
     
  7. Regulas021

    Regulas021 Chieftain

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    Don’t disagree except to ask whether this would be useful for Canada in terms of how it’s supposed to be played within the mod
     
  8. Regulas021

    Regulas021 Chieftain

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    Russia’s second UHV, “Cold War”, asks it to be the first civ to complete the Manhattan Project and the Moon Landing. This was fine as a vanilla RFC UHV, however...

    1. There’s room for debate on whether the USSR ever even valued these goals

    2. In current DoC, projects exist that the Russians really DID complete (or at least clearly valued very highly): First Satellite and Ballistic Missile

    Next, let’s talk about friendly relations with 5 communist Civs. I like the gameplay this encourages, but again is this UHV supposed to be the aspiration of the civ or more in line with what actually occurred? For alternatives...

    1. Instead of friendly relations, make the goal Vassalize (X) number of communist civs - I feel this is more in line with the relationship of the USSR towards East Germany, Hungary, Poland, North Korea, etc

    2. Moving in a different direction, have the USSR control the most Nuclear Weapons in the world by X year (1950, 1970, 1990 etc), could be a cool way to push the player into an arms race!
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2020
  9. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    I suppose it would help with cultural expansion (for the control X% of Canada goal) as well as help with opposing American culture at the shared border (and possibly also mitigate penalties for American culture bleeding over, if the second part is implemented, though I haven't played as Canada for a while so I don't remember how much of a problem it is realistically). At the very least, it's not any less useful or less synergistic than the current UP IMO.
     
  10. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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    I've never been sure what counts as communist in this mod
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Real life communists never know that either.
     
  12. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Communism is everything good self-proclaimed communist nations ever accomplished, as opposed to fake Communism that is really State Capitalism disguising itself as Communism, which is everything bad self-proclaimed communist nations ever did.
     
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  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    unless you're a tankie, in which case no self-proclaimed communist nation ever did anything bad ever.
     
  14. BluesyCobalt

    BluesyCobalt Chieftain

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    I'm not sure how serious this is, but I wouldn't call a country like China with three separate stock exchanges particularly communist anymore.
     
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  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Yeah, that's the point.
     
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  16. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Communism is a social commune or cooperative typified by the collective often unequal sharing of responsibilities and benefits according to need and output (as opposed to everyone only looking out for themselves) wherein decisions are jointly made by the people or representatives thereof.
     
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I would say communism is a society where democracy is fully implemented on all levels of the economy and all inelastic goods have been decommodified.
     
  18. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    So basically, the Federation in Star Trek.

    In the hopeful brightness of the near future there is only Communism.
     
  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Well, yeah. Star Trek doesn't really highlight this and sometimes writers seem to be confused about what such a society should look like, but sure. I think we would be a lot better off as a society if people mentally pictured Star Trek instead of Stalinist death camps when they heard the word socialism.
     
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  20. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Agreed.

    In case my previous post was too purple in its prose for anyone to get the joke I attempted to convey, I was describing Democracy with stereotypically Communist terms.
     
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