Civilisation Attributes open discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. Cosmos1985

    Cosmos1985 King

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    The Brexit house. Annulls all open border treaties and defensive pacts with continental European civilizations when you build it, but half of your population now believes that you have a vast colonial empire and is the scoreboard leader, no matter what the situation really is. 50% chance for Scottish cities to go independent. Unlocks numerous new LHs which changes every few turns.
     
  2. trevor

    trevor Warlord

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    Something to do with insurance? Lloyd's of London started in a coffee house. Similarly, the life insurance industry got it's contemporary start in Scotland.

    Maybe replace current UP with something else & give the city maintenance bonus to a coffee house/warehouse UB (the idea being that because of insurance the losses from city distance/corruption/etc are recouped)?
     
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  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I was trying to think of a Warehouse UB because it kind of fits, but there is no specific building I could think of to replace it?

    What if it's a Wharf replacement? Like a shipyard, or dockyard? Trade routes, ship production or experience, and maintenance reduction in case the UP is changed would all fit such a building.
     
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  4. Cosmos1985

    Cosmos1985 King

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    With regards to ship production and/or experience, it makes sense for sure, but wouldn't it somehow be "too much" when there is also the Trafalgar Square wonder? I don't know. It does indeed sound quite fitting for the English though, otoh.
     
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Well, technically, the English don't own the Trafalgar Square wonder.
     
  6. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    and it'd help them get Trafalgar
     
  7. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    Common Bench/Exchequer, replaces Civic Square (or Courthouse, or a similar Statesman building)

    Possible Effects:
    • :) or Stability bonus (I think Courthouse already boosts Stability, not sure if Civic Square does?), representing how the Common Law adapts flexibly to local traditions;
    • Earlier unlock than similar buildings, representing how England is a forerunner of the modern parliamentary/representative system & balance of powers;
    • :commerce: or :traderoute: bonus, representing how English Law is generally recognized as the best for commerce (most of the commercial and banking law in the EU remain English Law, post-Brexit);
      • This is also the most consist with current UP & Elizabeth & Victoria's Financial Trait in vanilla CIV; this also benefits Coastal cities more.
    • Allows more Statesman (I am quite sure of this) and/or Merchant (I am less sure of this) Specialist slots.
    The English UUs are early modern/colonial, and its UP (which I think should be changed, btw) is colonial. Ideally the UB should at least somewhat represent pre-colonial England.
     
  8. Publicola

    Publicola King

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    I'm wondering if we could use something like 'Prize Court', to indicate England's naval tradition. Not sure exactly what it'd look like, or what it'd replace, but the bonus should be along the lines of extra :gold: and bonus :hammers: production for pre-Industrial ships -- whenever a British ship seized another nation's ships, the contents were sold in a Prize Court and the ship itself was refitted for use in the British navy.
     
  9. WhiteEyes

    WhiteEyes Chieftain

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    Lets talk about the Arabs and bit of the Moors
    Moorish starting date
    Currently, Arabia have one of the most ahistorical playthrough (the other one being the Turks) due to their explosive expansion IRL and their ingame interaction with the Moors. Historically, the Muslim conquest of Iberia was taken by the Umayyad Caliphate not Moors, with the Emirate of Cordoba going independent later in 756. So, I suggest moving Moorish spawn date to 756. Maybe give them conditional spawn based on Arabia's GPT output, since Arabs have terrible economy in early game.

    UU

    Poor Ghazis get overshadowed by Mobile Guards for lot reasons:
    -No starting xp from Stable
    -Requires Iron/Copper while the MG only requires Horse. Acquiring Horse is much easier for Arabs than Copper or Iron. Unless there is starting road at Cyprus Copper.
    -Unlocked too late, as Arab player I usually beeline Doctrine for Theocracy xp bonus, and already unlocking Mobile Guard along the way.
    -They give no help against the Seljuks
    -They are worse at taking cities compared to MG.
    Possible buff or new UU idea would be giving them first strike or withdraw chance like the MG, make them a Swordsman replacement(that needs no iron nor copper) to have them unlocked early, and no upkeep so you can train lots of them early game without further hurting your economy.

    Also, Mubarizun sounds like a nice alternative UU name for the Ghazi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mubarizun

    UB

    Just like my criticism on The House of Wisdom, the tech UHV is already winnable with the scientist pump from Great Library. No room for science building cause you need to train armies all the time. Not sure what building could replace the Alchemist, maybe buff it to +1:science: per desert resources(date, camel, salt)? Or +1:hammers: for metal resources?

    Leader
    Probably has been talked multiple times but having Saladin not being the leader of the Ayyubid sultanate makes no sense. Maybe we should remove Ayyubid from Egypt dynamic names, the Ayyubids doesn't last very long compared to Fatimid or Mamluk dynasty.

    Great People Names
    Despite often said among the best Muslim figures after Muhammad, Umar and Uthman better suit as Great Statesman than a Great Prophet(theologian). Some good replacement candidates are:
    Abu Hurayrah (Muhammad's companion whose credited in over 5000 hadith)
    Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj (second most popular Hadith collector after Bukhari)
    Abu Hanifa (founder of the most followed Sunni school of law, the Hanafi)
    Al-Shafi'i (founder of Shafi'i school, probably second most followed after Hanafi)

    And, not trying to criticize the UHV but the Umayyad Caliphate controlled most of Iberia, Transoxiana, and even southern Pakistan and France in 750. I wonder if this is possible to do in-game. :undecide:
     
  10. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    Agree on all points.

    Re: Ghazis, there are other UUs which represent essentially volunteer/self-organized units, which therefore should have zero unit maintenance. Albion Legion is probably the best example. The Turkic UU and the second Mongol UU are also comparable in this regard to Ghazis. Minuteman is another (although I think they are overshadowed by Pioneers).

    Re: the speed of the Arab conquests, an easy solution is to give Arabia's starting units extra movement points. This can also apply to other civs with fast conquest goals, e.g. Columbia, Persia and Mongolia.
     
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  11. rmontaruli

    rmontaruli Prince

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    Or instead, trace a roman road along the coast of North Africa.
     
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  12. WhiteEyes

    WhiteEyes Chieftain

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    With some tweak (moving Moorish starting date, starting galley) and bit of luck, it's possible to conquer Marrakech and settle Spain before 711 just with the starting army(Epic speed). I even managed to conquer Madrid, Barcelona, and Marseille before 1000AD.

    About the Arabian UB, I just got another idea:
    Bimaristan/Dar al-Shifa, replaces Hospital
    Unlocked with Civil Service
    Much cheaper :hammers: cost, but only give 2:health:

    if those are not enough, additional effects could be
    10%:science: or +1 scientist slot (like SoI version of Bimaristan)
    Military Units starts with Medic promotion (might overlap with the Red Cross wonder though)

    The Abbassid Caliphate built the first public hospital in history. The hospitals not only functions for treating patients but also serve as medical school. Having a UB that unlocked far before its original version would be a cool idea, and we have no UB Hospital so far.

    By the way, I apologize if my writing isn't concise enough or hard to understand. Presenting my own ideas in a nonnative language is much harder than I thought :blush:
     
  13. Cacaso

    Cacaso Chieftain

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    some suggestions from UP, UB, UHV in relation to civ Brasil:

    UP: The power of "Bossa Nova"

    the first time it moves the capital to a non-coastal city generates a golden age.

    + 1 / + 0.5 happiness in all cities by cultural level.


    (Bossa Nova is a more elite variation of samba, from Bossa Nova there are songs like "Garota de Ipanema" or "Chega de saudade" that are a symbol of Brazilian culture in the world, during the time when these songs were composed occurred the construction of Brasilia and Brazil underwent strong economic development, notably because of the automobile industry, which was then called the "Anos Dourados", which is why the idea of the golden age.

    The part of UP's happiness is due to the Bossa Nova music being a reason of great national pride in Brazil, and this added to the people of Brazil being known for their happiness, I think it would be appropriate to reward the production of culture with happiness. Within the gameplay mechanics normally cities in Brazil reach level 3 or 4 of culture, they hardly reach 5 or 6, so the amount of happiness generated would not be unreasonably large)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bossa_nova


    UHV1: The coffee cycle - Get at least 500 gold by selling coffee by 1830/1850/1880, get at least 2500 gold by selling coffee and rubber by 1880/1920, Build Ironworks by 1930.


    (The first UHV is based on the fact that Brazil has been the largest coffee producer for the last 150 years, so a fact of this historical importance would deserve a UHV, coffee cultivation and especially its export were very important during the second reign (great share of exportations of brazil) and the beginning of the first republic (coffee with milk policy), there were two booms in coffee export from brazil, the first between 1830-1850 (but for gameplay mechanics it is very early since brazil spawn in 1822) the second occurred between 1880-1930.

    Parallel to the coffee cycle occurred the 1879-1912 rubber cycle, the use of gold obtained from the sale of rubber would also be a way to encourage the player to colonize the Amazon, in addition to the end of these two economic cycles added to the great depression of 1929, generated industrialism by replacing imports from Getúlio Vargas, which is the third part of the UHV, to build Ironworks to represent the consolidation of the base industry in Brazil with the inauguration of "CSN - Companhia Siderúrgica Nacinal", which was a great steelworks for steel production obtained by Getúlio Vargas through financing provided by the USA for the entry of Brazil in WW2.)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_production_in_Brazil

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rubber_boom

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companhia_Siderúrgica_Nacional

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getúlio_Vargas



    UHV2: The "Golden Years" - Move the capital to Brasília and connect it by highway to at least 5/6/7 cities until 1950/1960.


    (This UHV would serve to portray the construction of the capital Brasília and the importance of the automotive industry for Brazil, IMO these facts are historically very relevant for Brazil and would be a very different UHV, since no other in the MOD that asks for a change of of capital.

    "Os Anos Dourados" is the way in which part of the 50s is known, where mainly under the government of Juscelino Kubitschek, Brazil builds the capital and important highways to connect various parts of the country, with the new capital as the center)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juscelino_Kubitschek



    UHV3: Brazil of great works (Maracanã, Itaipu, Cristo Redentor, trans-amazônica) - Build the wonders Wembley, Hoover Dam and Cristo Redentor, and a highway that connects the most extreme tile from east to west of Brazil until 1972.


    (This is based on the UHV that is already in the MOD, which is the construction of the wonders that are well known in Brazil: Maracanã, Itaipu and Cristo redentor, I also added the "trans-amazonian" highway which is one of the "pharaonic works "that occurred during the military dictatorship of 1964, together with the construction of the Rio-Niterói bridge and the Itaipu hydroelectric plant, this highway is the third largest in Brazil and connects the Brazilian Northeast to the Amazon (look at the map in this link below), in the game build highways is very simple and cheap so I don’t know if it’s going to be good to add, or if you just leave the wonders.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Amazonian_Highway



    UB - Sambódromo / Carnaval de Rua - replaces arena, in addition to the normal effects, generates + 1 / + 0.5 culture and + 1 / + 0.5 gold for the cultural level of the city (this adjustment by cultural level is interesting because it generates a natural balance of the bonus since it increases with time, and as cities in Brazil rarely reach level 5 of culture, for the most part the game would generate 2, 3 or 4 of culture and gold per city, which is not so exaggerated, if it is, you can put only +0.5 per level or put a fixed bonus of + X culture / gold. As Carnival has existed in Brazil since the 16th century known as "Entrudo" and from the 19th century in the most contemporary way, the UB sambódromo could be available from the spawn)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Carnival


    I believe that these changes will make the gameplay with CIV brasil more focused on the production of culture, building wonders related to Brazil, negotiating diplomatic agreements for the sale of resources or the purchase of technologies, moving the capital from Rio de Janeiro to Brasilia, construction of highways and colonization of the Amazon in search of rubber or area for new cities. These actions are, IMO much more connected with what would be expected from the game with Brazil, concentrating the actions on a more constructive / peaceful game and less on military conquests / Brazil-WestCanada strategy (from previous games I had to capture cities in Africa to try getting slaves, after I bought the ones from the Congo and they didn't produce anymore, or else having to found cities in other regions / capture Buenos Aires to get the required number of pastures. This type of action doesn't make much sense looking at the history of Brazil.

    That other UHV Pindorama, I think it would be better if replaced by another one, since as the new map will have a much larger area it will be very simple to get 20/25/30 jungle tiles and use the workers to build the reserve forests, and that could still generate the situation of building the capital and national park in the amazon and having a city with 20 free specialists, which would be something very strange. on the old map too but on a smaller scale.


    Regarding the dates of the UHVs and the values of the bonuses, we have to discuss to make an appropriate balance, if you want to comment feel free.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  14. SultanRedSnake

    SultanRedSnake Chieftain

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    The Portuguese

    UHV 1 - Have Open Borders agreements with 14 other civs by 1550

    I know this is a carry-over from original RFC. I also see why it seems to make sense: Portugal had a global trading empire and this kinda reflects that. However, I can provide both gameplay and historical reasons why it's ready for an update. Regarding gameplay, it's pretty much a slam-dunk. Historically speaking, seeking "open borders" is arguably the opposite of what the Portuguese sought to accomplish in the Indian ocean. It also leaves out the very strong Crusading element that motivated their push east just as much any commercial desires. It wasn't just a mere mission to get rich off of some spices. The grand strategy envisioned by Afonso de Albuquerque sought to completely close off the Indian ocean; hence the conquests of Hormuz, Malacca, and the attempted seizure of Aden and other strongholds near the Red Sea. WIthin the Indian ocean, far from engaging in good-faith commercial activity that make one think of "open borders", the Portuguese effectively set up a mafia-esque protection racket. These are just reasons to ditch the UHV as it is; I'm not necessarily recommending that this type of thing be captured.

    UHV 2 - Acquire 12 TC resources by 1650

    Various changes, mostly concerning the map, have made this goal considerably easier. Raising it to 14 wouldn't be unreasonable.

    UHV 3 - Control 15 colonies in Brazil, Africa, and Asia by 1700.

    Currently just a settler-spam. The general idea works, but I think making it more specific, similar to England, would add to the challenge. I'd also like to add that the first target of Portugal's expansion was Morocco. Even as late as 1578, at the height of their power, King Sebatao rode off and got himself killed in crusade against Morocco. They were clearly obsessed.

    Proposals:

    The Portuguese referred to their operation in the east as "Casa de India" with its headquarters at Goa. Currently, the player can completely ignore India. This was the true heart of their overseas empire, with Brazil existing as an afterthought until the east was lost to the Dutch. I also think the timeline can be extended to 1800 or so.

    Let me tentatively throw these out there:

    UHV 1 - Allow no Muslim cities in North Africa (say from Morroco to Tunis) in 1550/1600.
    UHV 2 - Control 3 cities in India, 3 cities in Indonesia, and 3 cities in East Africa (the Horn and Swahili coast roughly) by 1650.
    UHV 3 - Control Brazil in 1850.

    One other minor recommendation: Start with Regulated Trade. All overseas trade was conducted as a crown monopoly, not by individual merchants and companies like in England and the Netherlands. And I'm reasonably just about everybody switches right to it anyway. Also, I know the Carrack is already pretty sweet, but hows about letting it bombard city defenses? The Portuguese practically invented that.


    I'm going to run a few tests. Meanwhile I look forward to hearing some feedback. I've been playing and loving this mod since the start and am immensely grateful for Leoreth's hard work.
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Three conquest goals for a civ like Portugal? Nah.
     
  16. SultanRedSnake

    SultanRedSnake Chieftain

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    Ugh I feel like an idiot. I didn't even notice that, despite the different wording for each, that yeah they can all be summarized as "conquest". Back to the drawing board.

    Although I should clarify that I didn't envision #3 as necessarily requiring any conquest. Brazil can be settled; the challenge, in my mind, is that the player has to remain stable enough to prevent the Brazilian spawn. Whether that's reasonable or not is quite another matter (it's ok to tell me I'm crazy). I'd also like to clarify that I still think Portugal is plenty fun to play. Hehe but since you asked my imagination started to run wild.


    Let me spitball another brief list:

    #1 - a) Slave trade?
    b) Total/foreign trade volume?
    c) Lisbon city with highest trade volume?
    d) Throw in some wonder requirements?
    e) Add on first to circumnavigate (Magellan was Portuguese!)
    #2 - Acquire 15 TC resources by 1650
    #3 - Control 5 colonies each in Brazil, Africa, and Asia by 1700 (still 15 total).

    Another idea: Give Portugal the Spice goal and give the Netherlands something else.
     
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  17. WhiteEyes

    WhiteEyes Chieftain

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    Turkic UHV 3 needs the civ to move the capital twice, though not in specific cities.

    On the Brazil topic, I think it's weird that the current Brazil UHV needs the player to "steal" Wembley from England, while England doesn't have any pressure to build Wembley.
    How about renaming the wonder to "Maracana Stadium" (the current one doesn't even have "stadium" in its name), or "FIFA World Cup" to make it less civ-specific.
    Or remove Wembley from the second UHV and add "Be the first civ to control 5 stadiums" to the current third UHV(national park).
    This could be a good alternative UHV idea for Argentine too, by making both civs to rival each other in sports business.
     
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  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Yeah, sorry for the snide reply earlier, didn't have the time to answer more in depth from work.

    I don't mind goals that are ultimately based on territorial control but just plain conquer/settle/control X is not that interesting to me, especially if repeated multiple times. I agree with your overall criticism of the Portuguese UHV.

    One thing I thought of when reading your analysis was that it was really important for Portugal to monopolise the Indian Ocean trade route. It led to their colonies in Africa, their conquests in Arabia and their acquisitions of Goa and Malacca. Maybe it would be cool to give them a variant of the Russian/Canadian railroute goals except it is something along the lines of "Control 50% and allow no foreign control of a coastal trade connection between Lisbon and a colony in India". Basically that means there should be a path between Lisbon and Goa (or another colony) along coast tiles, none of those tiles can be controlled by another civilisation, and Portugal needs to culturally control 50% of those tiles (number obviously up for tuning).

    That way you have an incentive to colonise India, colonise Africa, and conquer Arab/Persian/Native cities in East Africa and the Middle East. Morocco would be a roadblock there as well. It captures their historical golden age much better than the bland "found x colonies" goal while still including the essential concept.

    I honestly like the "control X of sugar, spices, bananas" goal. It has some freedom but it generally directs you where you would go historically (Africa, Indonesia, India, Brazil).

    Now what I've always thought ever since we discussed this, if Great Explorers and "great explorer points" from discovering territory and natural wonders and circumnavigation are added to the game, that should definitely become part of the Portuguese UHV. Like you mention with the circumnavigation goal, which by itself is a bit too simple in my opinion. But something like "create 3 Great Explorers by 1550 AD" with all those different approaches to get Great Explorers would be very fitting for Portugal imo.

    In fact I would also consider a UP that gives Portuguese Great Explorers the ability to act as generals, but one step at a time. If you don't know what I'm talking about, check out the threads about Great Explorers and Natural Wonders in this forum.
     
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  19. SultanRedSnake

    SultanRedSnake Chieftain

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    Goshdarn it I hate you :D:D:D. I mean, of course, that you put form to the general concept I had floating around in my mind but couldn't translate into an elegant, interesting expression in the game. "Conquer stuff" was the best I could do as a starting point. Now we're cooking with gas.

    Agreed. Hehe but I'll insist again that 12 resources is sooooo 1.14. :crazyeye:

    Dude, if I were able to ravage the Indian ocean with Afonso de Albuquerque....:king:

    Thanks for engaging. Knowing this is on your mind is more than enough for me. At this point I have nothing left to add. Keep up the good work.

    (c'moooooon let Carracks bombard cities!)
     
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  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Oh, for sure. Not sure if a redesign can happen before the new map, when the thresholds for all UHV goals need to be reexamined anyway.

    Very good idea! That hadn't occurred to me before.
     

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