Civilisation Attributes open discussion
- Thread starter Leoreth
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ShinobiHus92
Chieftain
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Sounds like a great idea! It certainly makes the game dynamic and interesting! I asume as time goes on your leader will change automatically? Or a pop-up appears stated that you now controll this leader moving foward etc
urbestfriend
Chieftain
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I'm going to go against the grain and say that I don't think thats a very good idea. I think it's bad in and out of game and I'm just going to give some bullet points as to why I think so:
Takes away player planning: The AI leaderhead changes happen with very little input from the player, and while some happen from set dates, others are based on factors like civics and religion choice, which the player cannot account for. And while some amount of variance and dynamic play is good, we should also encourage players to think long term and plan around the AI's abilities, not punish them because they planned to sabotage an enemy in a specific way except oh no things are different now and you wasted your time.
Loss of a cohesive civ: I like playing as a civ and making it feel like my own. Like I'm really building this special civ that I can pilot because I know it inside and out. That from turn 1 to turn 2000 I'm taking every part of the civ and maximizing it and optimizing it to the fullest, and a huge part of that is that I have this one special trait that I'm stuck with and I can't just swap it around whenever it suits me. I'm not going to deny there may be some skill in swapping leaderheads to use the right trait at the right time but personally, I feel like you lose something aesthetically pleasing from this.
More knowledge required: I don't know all the leaderheads in this game and I've played well over 100 games of this mod. I don't know the triggers for half the leaderhead switches. I'm wouldn't be surprised if Leo couldn't tell you 2/3 of them off the top of his head. This is a lot of random bits of trivia that players aren't expected to know because it just isn't all that relevant in most situations - except now it is, and it's going to send players running to the civpedia or a guide too many times imo just to figure out their own civ.
Balance: This is the big one. It is already hard enough to balance say, 6 civics in the same category against each other. How do we make state planning vs free market balanced? Thats been a huge ever changing part of the mod since the start and is something still being actively worked on. Now take all the work done on balancing those... and throw them in the dumpster because now those civic swaps can come with new traits you have to balance with each other and the civics. For every. single. Civ. in the freaking mod. And the problem only gets worse as new civs and leaderheads are added. Speaking of...
Development Priorities: I would so much rather see Leoreth spend time polishing the currently existing traits to a perfect shine, where every one feels unique and fair, rather than trying to make 50-100 traits that, lets be honest, are probably going to involve some Copy and Paste. I'd rather see new interesting civs added rather then trying to spend time picking out and balancing 10 leaderheads and their conditions.
Overall I think this is an idea that while it sounds cool at first, opens up a way too big can of worms to feasibly control. I'd be interested in hearing other opinions or thoughts however.
Takes away player planning: The AI leaderhead changes happen with very little input from the player, and while some happen from set dates, others are based on factors like civics and religion choice, which the player cannot account for. And while some amount of variance and dynamic play is good, we should also encourage players to think long term and plan around the AI's abilities, not punish them because they planned to sabotage an enemy in a specific way except oh no things are different now and you wasted your time.
Loss of a cohesive civ: I like playing as a civ and making it feel like my own. Like I'm really building this special civ that I can pilot because I know it inside and out. That from turn 1 to turn 2000 I'm taking every part of the civ and maximizing it and optimizing it to the fullest, and a huge part of that is that I have this one special trait that I'm stuck with and I can't just swap it around whenever it suits me. I'm not going to deny there may be some skill in swapping leaderheads to use the right trait at the right time but personally, I feel like you lose something aesthetically pleasing from this.
More knowledge required: I don't know all the leaderheads in this game and I've played well over 100 games of this mod. I don't know the triggers for half the leaderhead switches. I'm wouldn't be surprised if Leo couldn't tell you 2/3 of them off the top of his head. This is a lot of random bits of trivia that players aren't expected to know because it just isn't all that relevant in most situations - except now it is, and it's going to send players running to the civpedia or a guide too many times imo just to figure out their own civ.
Balance: This is the big one. It is already hard enough to balance say, 6 civics in the same category against each other. How do we make state planning vs free market balanced? Thats been a huge ever changing part of the mod since the start and is something still being actively worked on. Now take all the work done on balancing those... and throw them in the dumpster because now those civic swaps can come with new traits you have to balance with each other and the civics. For every. single. Civ. in the freaking mod. And the problem only gets worse as new civs and leaderheads are added. Speaking of...
Development Priorities: I would so much rather see Leoreth spend time polishing the currently existing traits to a perfect shine, where every one feels unique and fair, rather than trying to make 50-100 traits that, lets be honest, are probably going to involve some Copy and Paste. I'd rather see new interesting civs added rather then trying to spend time picking out and balancing 10 leaderheads and their conditions.
Overall I think this is an idea that while it sounds cool at first, opens up a way too big can of worms to feasibly control. I'd be interested in hearing other opinions or thoughts however.
Enyavar
Prince
- Joined
- May 16, 2015
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- 510
That's why I already covered ~40 leaderheads in my post already. If anything in that direction gets realized, we should recycle the current Unique Powers, and also not go overboard with some of the lesser figures. Past-UHV-leaders like Baibars and Nasser don't need awesome Unique Powers in my opinion. Neither do Franco or George I. or Bhutto.
Yes, that is a major issue. I would suggest that this would need to be done via revolution (civic change), but probably only going forward: Genghis would be tied to "Mongolian Conquest", but once you leave that Civic towards Kublai's "Mongolian Tributary or higher" civic, you just cannot return to Genghis.
The AI-players would just remain triggered just as they currently are.
Yeah, there are a lot of concerns. I already adressed the first: It is up to the player to plan when he (permanently?) switches the leaderhead towards a more favorable civic and UP.
I don't fully get the loss of cohesion. If you play for UHV, you already have to make your plans, and the way I described the process, it would make for better historicity in playthrough. Instead of remaining "King Alfred" into the 20th century. England's current unique power is fully useless until the age of Imperialism.
On the "more knowledge required": I already think that before each playthrough, you have to do all the research on UHV, UP, UB, the potential zone switches and even about when they occur. For example, the Turks' core switches two times in the game, the Mongolian core and the Japanese core switch, but the Chinese core doesn't unless you are the AI. Taking all that into account, it wouldn't be that much more complicated, as long as the UPs and leaderheads are listed neatly in the 'pedia.
The rest of your arguments are all fair. This IS Leoreth's mod, and I just wanted to toss an idea into the room. We all know that Leoreth only realizes the 5-10% of ideas that HE thinks are beneficial to the game. And this idea is also not something I would ever expect to be realized in short time, even if Leo (or another mod-modder) gave it a go.
LikeNothing
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2016
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- 116
Some ideas for the English UUs and the French Guard (Garde?).
Redcoat
Starts with Amphibious
(Optional) Remove or reduce Collateral Damage
(Optional) Attack bonus vs Arquebusier and Bombard
Man-of-War
Carries (2 or 3) military units as cargo
Privateer can upgrade to Ship of the Line
Garde
Replaces Rifleman
Available with Nationalism
No XP penalty from Drafting
No or reduced
from Drafting
(Optional) Cannot be Drafted overseas
(Optional) +1 Movement
(Optional) Increased build cost
France doesn't need a second Heavy Cavalry UU, since Gendarme (with Leadership) promoted into Dragoon still functions as an elite Heavy Cavalry, better than regular Dragoons.
Redcoat
Starts with Amphibious
(Optional) Remove or reduce Collateral Damage
(Optional) Attack bonus vs Arquebusier and Bombard
Man-of-War
Carries (2 or 3) military units as cargo
Privateer can upgrade to Ship of the Line
Garde
Replaces Rifleman
Available with Nationalism
No XP penalty from Drafting
No or reduced
from Drafting(Optional) Cannot be Drafted overseas
(Optional) +1 Movement
(Optional) Increased build cost
France doesn't need a second Heavy Cavalry UU, since Gendarme (with Leadership) promoted into Dragoon still functions as an elite Heavy Cavalry, better than regular Dragoons.
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LikeNothing
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2016
- Messages
- 116
New Chinese UP: The Power of Dynastic Cycles
When you enter a new Era, you receive a Stability bonus (Or penalty, depending on balance) for some turns, and your Great People and Great General Thresholds reduced (down to zero, or half, or some other level).
Optional: This only works for the first 4 new Eras you enter. To balance 3000BC China vs 600AD China.
Optional: You also receive the "Rise of Civilization" tech cost discount for some turns.
Optional: Your non-Historical cities become Independents.
Optional: You also receive a small stack of free units:
IRL China has collapsed multiple times and went through multiple cycles of reform and rebirth. This is not just part of China's national mythos (as stated in the opening sentence of Romance of Three Kingdoms) - it's a historical fact, and a very interesting one worthy of study.
But I think most agree it's impractical to represent each major Chinese dynasty as a separate civ in DoC. China will likely be the longest continuously running civ in a game like DoC, as it has always been. That should be what makes it unique and interesting to play, not a detriment.
Put another way, if any civ in game should represent multiple IRL civs/states/regimes/dynasties, it's China. The question is how to simulate this. I've thought of a controlled voluntary collapse (hence, the 3rd Optional above) but perhaps other players may hate it (although perhaps not too much, with my next idea below and the 4th Optional above).
The current Chinese UP has no effect on player or AI choices or tactics. It is functionally equivalent to a moderate boost to iModifierGrowthThreshold, which, even after the boost, still make China's pop growth rate slower than most civs'. This is easily balanced and somewhat useful - just not interesting enough to be noticeable IMHO.
===
New Game Mechanism: Mandate of Heaven (Alt Name: Zhuluzhongyuan)
If your Capital is in China's Core and has at least 50% of your own Culture, you receive no (or reduced) Resistance in the cities you conquer in China's Core and Historical Areas.
Optional: This can also work if your Capital is in China's Historical Area.
Optional: This can also work if your Capital is not in China, but your Religion is Confucian or Taoist.
Optional: You also lose fewer Buildings when conquering these cities.
Optional: You also receive free defenders in these cities after conquering them.
Optional: You also absorb more of the Culture in these cities after conquering them.
Optional: You also receive a Stability boost (equivalent to Conquest Civic) from conquering these cities.
This idea is inspired by both RFCAsia and the Common Universalis Mod of EU4. In RFC Asia if you conquer half of China the other half auto-flips to you. I think a no Resistance bonus is more fun.
Currently, this mechanism would give Mongolia, Japan, Korea, Tibet, Khmer, etc. more motivation and benefits to conquer China. In a future larger map, where I assume there will be more civs in the area like the Manchus, it'd be even more interesting.
When you enter a new Era, you receive a Stability bonus (Or penalty, depending on balance) for some turns, and your Great People and Great General Thresholds reduced (down to zero, or half, or some other level).
Optional: This only works for the first 4 new Eras you enter. To balance 3000BC China vs 600AD China.
Optional: You also receive the "Rise of Civilization" tech cost discount for some turns.
Optional: Your non-Historical cities become Independents.
Optional: You also receive a small stack of free units:
- Classical (Han Dynasty): Horse Archer(s), Chokonu(s), Settler(s)
- Medieval (Tang Dynasty): Horse Archer(s) or Lancer(s), Trebuchet(s), Explorer(s)
- Renaissance (Ming Dynasty): Firelancers or Musketeers, Lancer(s), Galleon(s) or Caravel(s)
- Industrial Onwards: No free units, sorry.
IRL China has collapsed multiple times and went through multiple cycles of reform and rebirth. This is not just part of China's national mythos (as stated in the opening sentence of Romance of Three Kingdoms) - it's a historical fact, and a very interesting one worthy of study.
But I think most agree it's impractical to represent each major Chinese dynasty as a separate civ in DoC. China will likely be the longest continuously running civ in a game like DoC, as it has always been. That should be what makes it unique and interesting to play, not a detriment.
Put another way, if any civ in game should represent multiple IRL civs/states/regimes/dynasties, it's China. The question is how to simulate this. I've thought of a controlled voluntary collapse (hence, the 3rd Optional above) but perhaps other players may hate it (although perhaps not too much, with my next idea below and the 4th Optional above).
The current Chinese UP has no effect on player or AI choices or tactics. It is functionally equivalent to a moderate boost to iModifierGrowthThreshold, which, even after the boost, still make China's pop growth rate slower than most civs'. This is easily balanced and somewhat useful - just not interesting enough to be noticeable IMHO.
===
New Game Mechanism: Mandate of Heaven (Alt Name: Zhuluzhongyuan)
If your Capital is in China's Core and has at least 50% of your own Culture, you receive no (or reduced) Resistance in the cities you conquer in China's Core and Historical Areas.
Optional: This can also work if your Capital is in China's Historical Area.
Optional: This can also work if your Capital is not in China, but your Religion is Confucian or Taoist.
Optional: You also lose fewer Buildings when conquering these cities.
Optional: You also receive free defenders in these cities after conquering them.
Optional: You also absorb more of the Culture in these cities after conquering them.
Optional: You also receive a Stability boost (equivalent to Conquest Civic) from conquering these cities.
This idea is inspired by both RFCAsia and the Common Universalis Mod of EU4. In RFC Asia if you conquer half of China the other half auto-flips to you. I think a no Resistance bonus is more fun.
Currently, this mechanism would give Mongolia, Japan, Korea, Tibet, Khmer, etc. more motivation and benefits to conquer China. In a future larger map, where I assume there will be more civs in the area like the Manchus, it'd be even more interesting.
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Genghis Khaiser
King
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- Aug 10, 2012
- Messages
- 698
Byzantium's UP should be changed. It requires money and by the time you have enough to meet your UHV you don't get barbarians anymore so there's no use of it.
My ideas:
-Same as the original, but not requiring Gold.
-Same as original, but it earns you Gold.
-Same as original, but you can bribe any enemy unit within your territory, or just Core area if it's too OP.
-Something religion-related, like +1 Food or +5% Defense per state religion building (Double per Cathedral).
My ideas:
-Same as the original, but not requiring Gold.
-Same as original, but it earns you Gold.
-Same as original, but you can bribe any enemy unit within your territory, or just Core area if it's too OP.
-Something religion-related, like +1 Food or +5% Defense per state religion building (Double per Cathedral).
LikeNothing
Warlord
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- Dec 25, 2016
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- 116
The Spy movement speed is as much a pain as the 
cost, if not greater IMO. It not just makes the Byzantine UP annoying to micro (especially since barbs spawn semi-randomly within your Cultural Borders) - it makes the UP practically nonexistent most of the time, because you simply cannot move the Spies in place quickly enough for it to make a noticeable difference.
In DoC military units move at the astounding speed of less than 1 km per day (less than 1 km per week/month in the earlier eras). That is (I suppose) qualitatively justified as representing logistics and supply lines. Spies IRL have zero logistics and supply issues compared to armies, and move much faster than armies.
So perhaps one blessing of Byzantine UP being so bad is that it reveals something about Spies generally that should be changed.
cost, if not greater IMO. It not just makes the Byzantine UP annoying to micro (especially since barbs spawn semi-randomly within your Cultural Borders) - it makes the UP practically nonexistent most of the time, because you simply cannot move the Spies in place quickly enough for it to make a noticeable difference.In DoC military units move at the astounding speed of less than 1 km per day (less than 1 km per week/month in the earlier eras). That is (I suppose) qualitatively justified as representing logistics and supply lines. Spies IRL have zero logistics and supply issues compared to armies, and move much faster than armies.
So perhaps one blessing of Byzantine UP being so bad is that it reveals something about Spies generally that should be changed.
MechatronicJazz
Prince
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- Aug 15, 2007
- Messages
- 316
I appreciate that spies might need to be a bit faster to work mechanically well, but I don't think it's useful to draw comparisons to real life speeds. Especially in the early game, any unit is an abstraction for long term activity. Millitary units do not represent a single army moving, they're more like years of sustained warfare in a region. Likewise, spies are more like sustained espionage campaigns. The timescales are always going to be off.The Spy movement speed is as much a pain as the
In DoC military units move at the astounding speed of less than 1 km per day (less than 1 km per week/month in the earlier eras). That is (I suppose) qualitatively justified as representing logistics and supply lines. Spies IRL have zero logistics and supply issues compared to armies, and move much faster than armies.
So perhaps one blessing of Byzantine UP being so bad is that it reveals something about Spies generally that should be changed.
However, if needing to be on top of a unit to bribe it is impractical (if that is how it works; I don't remember), then maybe they need a range they can operate in. What would them fun to use in the game? I think that's the better question in this case than what makes them more realistic. Same goes for the Byzantine UP.
LikeNothing
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2016
- Messages
- 116
I agree! That's what I was referring to by logistics and supply lines.
I agree! But I think all Spy actions require same tile. If Spies had range, the movement speed would be less of an issue in general, but I'm not sure the engine even allows it.
How similar are Spies to armies though? Say, when Chinese Spies wish to conduct an espionage campaign in St. Petersburg, Russia, must they start sustained espionage campaign in East Siberia first, then West Siberia, and then the Urals, and so on?
The whole point of espionage, at least for military purposes, is to have agents that can move much faster than armies (due to lack of supply and logistical issues or enemy resistance) gather intel ahead of time, often before the military campaign strategy is even decided. If espionage takes as much time as military campaigns (as it does in DoC) there would be no point to it.
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Just an idea
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2016
- Messages
- 97
I've started to go through UHVs on Monarch so I thought I could write my thoughts on their UUs, UBs, UPs and UHVs here. Let's start with three civs starting their game 3000 BC.
EGYPT
UU: War Chariot
Chariot with extra strength, immunity to first strikes and desert adaption. In Egypt game you have to fight against Nubians, Greeks and Romans. Most of the territory you'll need to defend is flat terrain so Egypt would be funnily enough probably only civilization that would find regular Chariots somewhat useful. Add extra point of strength to that and War Chariot is very powerful UU for Egypt. One problem with War Chariots (and to lesser extent regular Chariots) have is that you can't build them after unlocking Horsemen even if you wanted.
UB: Obelisk
Monument with +25%
and a priest slot. Egypt's UHV requires lot of culture and so +25% is very useful. I find it useful enough to be worth building in my capital, even though I wouldn't build normal monument there. Priest slot is nice additional bonus and can help spawning a Great Prophet who can speed up researching techs necessary for 2nd UHV.
UP: The Power of the Pharaoh
Monarchy, Deification and Redistribution available at start of the game. This gives Egypt faster growth and faster wonder production in comparison to its rivals in early game. Somewhat unexciting but solid Unique power.
UHVs
1. Have 500 culture by/in 850 BC.
2. Build the Pyramids, the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse by 100 BC.
3. Have 5000 culture by/in 170 AD.
I don't have much to say about these except for 1st and 3rd goal being nearly identical.
BABYLON
UU: Asharittu Bowman
Archer that causes collateral damage when attacking. In my opinion, not a good UU. Babylonian UHV doesn't require you to capture cities so only time you'll be fighting stacks is the war against Persians and you'll have Skirmishers by then. In Babylon UHV game I built Bowmen but I would have been served just as well by regular Archers. In my opinion adding collateral damage to unit that shouldn't be attacking in first place doesn't make a good unique unit.
UB:Edubba
Cheaper Library with +2
. Absolutely crucial for Babylon's tech UHV. I don't have any complaints about this one.
UP: The Power of the Craddle of Civilization
First 5 technologies researched give free techs. Also crucial for tech UHV. It's quite powerful and also quite versitile when not going for UHV.
UHVs
1. Be first to discover Construction, Arithmetics, Writing, Calendar and Contract.
2. Make Babylon the most populous city in the world in 850 BC.
3. Make Babylon the most cultured city in the world in 700 BC.
1st goal is really hard. After that other goals, especially the 3rd one feel almost trivial. I would suggest combining 2nd and 3rd goal. New goal could be expansion goal so Babylon could get some use of it's UU.
I need to go now so I'll be adding my comments on Harappa later.
Edit:
HARAPPA
UU: City Builder
Cheaper Settler that gives extra population to cities it founds. I can't think of a unique unit that would fit Harappan gameplay better. Its unique traits are very helpful for Harappa's UHVs 2 and 3. Military UU would not fit Harappan gameplay.
UB: Reservoir
Cheaper Bath that is available with Masonry and doesn't require Aqueduct. Required for UHV. Also nice synergy with UP.
UP: The Power of Sanitation
During Ancient Era, excess health contributes towards city growth. This helps cities grow faster. Important for 3rd UHV. Notable thing is that cities need be growing for bonus to apply so it doesn't increase cities maximum size.
UHVs
1. Establish trade contact with another civilization by 1600 BC.
2. Build 3 Reservoirs, 2 Granaries and 2 Smokehouses by 1500 BC.
3. Have 30 population by 800 BC.
After hitting my head over and over again against the metaphorical wall that is Babylonia's 1st UHV goal, this was quite relaxing. First two goals are a puzzle so after you get them once they are quite easy. I also like that third goal gives a bit more freedom how to approach it. One minor gripe I have with 2nd goal is that Smokehouses aren't particularly useful to Harappa. For some reason Sheep don't give bonus Health with Smokehouses and by time Harappa can build Roads India has taken over the Cow resource in the area.
EGYPT
UU: War Chariot
Chariot with extra strength, immunity to first strikes and desert adaption. In Egypt game you have to fight against Nubians, Greeks and Romans. Most of the territory you'll need to defend is flat terrain so Egypt would be funnily enough probably only civilization that would find regular Chariots somewhat useful. Add extra point of strength to that and War Chariot is very powerful UU for Egypt. One problem with War Chariots (and to lesser extent regular Chariots) have is that you can't build them after unlocking Horsemen even if you wanted.
UB: Obelisk
Monument with +25%
and a priest slot. Egypt's UHV requires lot of culture and so +25% is very useful. I find it useful enough to be worth building in my capital, even though I wouldn't build normal monument there. Priest slot is nice additional bonus and can help spawning a Great Prophet who can speed up researching techs necessary for 2nd UHV.UP: The Power of the Pharaoh
Monarchy, Deification and Redistribution available at start of the game. This gives Egypt faster growth and faster wonder production in comparison to its rivals in early game. Somewhat unexciting but solid Unique power.
UHVs
1. Have 500 culture by/in 850 BC.
2. Build the Pyramids, the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse by 100 BC.
3. Have 5000 culture by/in 170 AD.
I don't have much to say about these except for 1st and 3rd goal being nearly identical.
BABYLON
UU: Asharittu Bowman
Archer that causes collateral damage when attacking. In my opinion, not a good UU. Babylonian UHV doesn't require you to capture cities so only time you'll be fighting stacks is the war against Persians and you'll have Skirmishers by then. In Babylon UHV game I built Bowmen but I would have been served just as well by regular Archers. In my opinion adding collateral damage to unit that shouldn't be attacking in first place doesn't make a good unique unit.
UB:Edubba
Cheaper Library with +2
. Absolutely crucial for Babylon's tech UHV. I don't have any complaints about this one.UP: The Power of the Craddle of Civilization
First 5 technologies researched give free techs. Also crucial for tech UHV. It's quite powerful and also quite versitile when not going for UHV.
UHVs
1. Be first to discover Construction, Arithmetics, Writing, Calendar and Contract.
2. Make Babylon the most populous city in the world in 850 BC.
3. Make Babylon the most cultured city in the world in 700 BC.
1st goal is really hard. After that other goals, especially the 3rd one feel almost trivial. I would suggest combining 2nd and 3rd goal. New goal could be expansion goal so Babylon could get some use of it's UU.
I need to go now so I'll be adding my comments on Harappa later.
Edit:
HARAPPA
UU: City Builder
Cheaper Settler that gives extra population to cities it founds. I can't think of a unique unit that would fit Harappan gameplay better. Its unique traits are very helpful for Harappa's UHVs 2 and 3. Military UU would not fit Harappan gameplay.
UB: Reservoir
Cheaper Bath that is available with Masonry and doesn't require Aqueduct. Required for UHV. Also nice synergy with UP.
UP: The Power of Sanitation
During Ancient Era, excess health contributes towards city growth. This helps cities grow faster. Important for 3rd UHV. Notable thing is that cities need be growing for bonus to apply so it doesn't increase cities maximum size.
UHVs
1. Establish trade contact with another civilization by 1600 BC.
2. Build 3 Reservoirs, 2 Granaries and 2 Smokehouses by 1500 BC.
3. Have 30 population by 800 BC.
After hitting my head over and over again against the metaphorical wall that is Babylonia's 1st UHV goal, this was quite relaxing. First two goals are a puzzle so after you get them once they are quite easy. I also like that third goal gives a bit more freedom how to approach it. One minor gripe I have with 2nd goal is that Smokehouses aren't particularly useful to Harappa. For some reason Sheep don't give bonus Health with Smokehouses and by time Harappa can build Roads India has taken over the Cow resource in the area.
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JHLee
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2013
- Messages
- 580
I like this suggestion, and I'd like to add something on top of it.
Why not change the 3rd USA UHV condition to building 10 of these Carrier Battlegroups and 30 Fighter/Jet Fighters?
It would also be an reminder to the vanilla "Overwhelm" quest.
JHLee
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2013
- Messages
- 580
I agree on this, but we already have a Riflemen UU in Prussia, and it would be best if we could have more diversity in Europe.
How about a Cannon UU with a higher strength or an Artillery UU that is available earlier, to reflect the Gribeauval reforms?
Concerning the Redcoats, my suggestion is replace the collateral damage with either
a) free Amphibious promotion
or
b) combat bonus against non-gunpowder units (just like Janissaries).
This is because as England, you really don't do much big stack battles against enemy Musketeers.
You usually fight against lower-tier Barbarian/Native/Mughal units, so the collateral damage doesn't make a lot of difference.
Just an idea
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2016
- Messages
- 97
Finally had time to play with China enough to complete their UHVs on Monarch. Here are my thoughts on them.
CHINA
UU: Cho-Ko-Nu and Firelancer
Cho-Ko-Nu is a Crossbowman which causes collateral damage and has an extra first strike. It is also available earlier with Artisanry. I found being able to build them earlier than normal crossbows their most useful trait. China has to face lot of Light Cavalry and Archers won't cut it outside your cities. Collateral damage part wasn't as useful against barbarians and against Mongols one should already have next Chinese UU.
Firelancer is an Arquebusier with one less strength and ability to cause collateral damage. They are also available earlier than normal with Gunpowder. Very useful for fighting Mongol stacks.
UB: Taixue
Library with extra Scientist and Statesman slot. I was already aware that extra specialist slots are useful because China needs lot of Great People for its UHV. Now that I've played on Monarch, I think that extra scientist slot is even more valuable in early game. Scientists really allowed me to keep my research going when I had to drop my reaearch rate to fund my expansion.
UP: The Power of Myriads
+25% Food stored when city grows. This is certainly powerful UP. However I think that it is little unexciting. In game I never felt that I should plan to get maximum mileage from Chinese UP. Sure it seems to be UP that encourages whipping, but in early game China doesn't have that many buildings available, so I found extra happiness from Monarchy more useful.
UHVs
1. Build two Confucian and Taoist Cathedrals by 1000 AD
2. Be the first to discover Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing
3. Experience four Golden Ages by 1800 AD
I really like interaction between two first goals forcing you to balance expansion and science. Second goal requires bit of luck, (In one of my games Persia discovered Compass around 630.) but is doable. Third goal felt like lot of waiting after Mongols.
China also has several wonders which it can normally claim without much competition. They have fun and useful effects. However I felt that one of them, Terracotta Army obsoletes too quickly. I managed to get 1GG from barbarian combat in my final successful game, when I was hoping for two. Missed second by about ten points. Well, maybe problem isn't when it obsoletes but that when it can be build is largely at mercy of early game's random religion spread. I would suggest that Terracotta Army's obsoleting tech is moved back to Commune or religion requirements would check only for state religion.
CHINA
UU: Cho-Ko-Nu and Firelancer
Cho-Ko-Nu is a Crossbowman which causes collateral damage and has an extra first strike. It is also available earlier with Artisanry. I found being able to build them earlier than normal crossbows their most useful trait. China has to face lot of Light Cavalry and Archers won't cut it outside your cities. Collateral damage part wasn't as useful against barbarians and against Mongols one should already have next Chinese UU.
Firelancer is an Arquebusier with one less strength and ability to cause collateral damage. They are also available earlier than normal with Gunpowder. Very useful for fighting Mongol stacks.
UB: Taixue
Library with extra Scientist and Statesman slot. I was already aware that extra specialist slots are useful because China needs lot of Great People for its UHV. Now that I've played on Monarch, I think that extra scientist slot is even more valuable in early game. Scientists really allowed me to keep my research going when I had to drop my reaearch rate to fund my expansion.
UP: The Power of Myriads
+25% Food stored when city grows. This is certainly powerful UP. However I think that it is little unexciting. In game I never felt that I should plan to get maximum mileage from Chinese UP. Sure it seems to be UP that encourages whipping, but in early game China doesn't have that many buildings available, so I found extra happiness from Monarchy more useful.
UHVs
1. Build two Confucian and Taoist Cathedrals by 1000 AD
2. Be the first to discover Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing
3. Experience four Golden Ages by 1800 AD
I really like interaction between two first goals forcing you to balance expansion and science. Second goal requires bit of luck, (In one of my games Persia discovered Compass around 630.) but is doable. Third goal felt like lot of waiting after Mongols.
China also has several wonders which it can normally claim without much competition. They have fun and useful effects. However I felt that one of them, Terracotta Army obsoletes too quickly. I managed to get 1GG from barbarian combat in my final successful game, when I was hoping for two. Missed second by about ten points. Well, maybe problem isn't when it obsoletes but that when it can be build is largely at mercy of early game's random religion spread. I would suggest that Terracotta Army's obsoleting tech is moved back to Commune or religion requirements would check only for state religion.
Genghis Khaiser
King
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2012
- Messages
- 698
China had other UPs long ago but they were changed as they felt pretty OP.
Just an idea
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2016
- Messages
- 97
Next one.
GREECE
UU: Hoplite and Companion
Hoplite is a Spearman with +1 Strength and Shock and Cover promotions. Very strong unit. Mainstay of Greek armies when going for UHV. Only things that can cause any trouble for them in UHV time frame are fortifications and Legionaires.
Companion is Horseman that starts with March and Blitz promotions and doesn't have penalty when fighting in cities. Unit seems to be meant for mopping up already weakened enemy units. I found myself using them because of 2 movement allowed them to get to the front lines quicker. While I used them mainly for their base unit, their unique abilities provided enough value that I think Companion is perfectly serviceable unit.
UB: Odeon
Theater with Stateman slot and +1 Happiness. Most interesting think about this building is that it gives you access to Statemen with Literature. I didn't build any of them during UHV gameplay. Greek UHV doesn't require culture beyond minimum levels required to build wonders so culture modifier is not useful. Greek core cities grow slowly enough that Pagan temples and happiness resources were enough to keep them happy. Specialist slots don't do much because when running Republic, the civic already gives you those slots. And the biggest problem; Greece doesn't have time to build anything that doesn't either boost production, boost military or straight up give extra food or free specialists, because it is busy with units and wonders.
UP: Power of Philosophy
+150% to Great Person birth rate until the end of Classical Era. I think this is a cool OP. It gives Greece a clear game plan; try to get as many GPs as possible.
UHVs
1. Be first to discover Mathematics, Literature, Aesthetics, Philosophy and Medicine.
2. Control Egypt, Phoenicia, Mesopotamia and Persia in 330 BC
3. Build Parthenon, the Colossus, Temple of Artemis and Statue of Zeus by 250BC
Conquest goal encourages rushing Egypt right at start. Such strategy could be discouraged by changing starting Hoplites to Militia and Archers, and giving Greece extra Settler and Worker to compensate. Problem with not conquering early is that that Egypt's and Babylonia's AIs love city spam. I did attempt to take it slow and start my conquests only after building Statue of Zeus. On attempt ended in collapse because of over -20 stability penalty for razing cities in Egypt and even successful one had me at one point losing money while running 0% science because of number of cities maintenance. Before one could just snipe core cities but now UHV requires control of every city in the area.
Required wonders all have nice effects so building the doesn't feel waste. Statue of Zeus especially is amazing for conquest. But speaking of wonders, I think it would be cool if Greece could sometimes build the Oracle. Autoplay starts on Regent had Babylonia build it before Greek start 8/10 starts and rest of the time it was completed before I could connect Marble.
GREECE
UU: Hoplite and Companion
Hoplite is a Spearman with +1 Strength and Shock and Cover promotions. Very strong unit. Mainstay of Greek armies when going for UHV. Only things that can cause any trouble for them in UHV time frame are fortifications and Legionaires.
Companion is Horseman that starts with March and Blitz promotions and doesn't have penalty when fighting in cities. Unit seems to be meant for mopping up already weakened enemy units. I found myself using them because of 2 movement allowed them to get to the front lines quicker. While I used them mainly for their base unit, their unique abilities provided enough value that I think Companion is perfectly serviceable unit.
UB: Odeon
Theater with Stateman slot and +1 Happiness. Most interesting think about this building is that it gives you access to Statemen with Literature. I didn't build any of them during UHV gameplay. Greek UHV doesn't require culture beyond minimum levels required to build wonders so culture modifier is not useful. Greek core cities grow slowly enough that Pagan temples and happiness resources were enough to keep them happy. Specialist slots don't do much because when running Republic, the civic already gives you those slots. And the biggest problem; Greece doesn't have time to build anything that doesn't either boost production, boost military or straight up give extra food or free specialists, because it is busy with units and wonders.
UP: Power of Philosophy
+150% to Great Person birth rate until the end of Classical Era. I think this is a cool OP. It gives Greece a clear game plan; try to get as many GPs as possible.
UHVs
1. Be first to discover Mathematics, Literature, Aesthetics, Philosophy and Medicine.
2. Control Egypt, Phoenicia, Mesopotamia and Persia in 330 BC
3. Build Parthenon, the Colossus, Temple of Artemis and Statue of Zeus by 250BC
Conquest goal encourages rushing Egypt right at start. Such strategy could be discouraged by changing starting Hoplites to Militia and Archers, and giving Greece extra Settler and Worker to compensate. Problem with not conquering early is that that Egypt's and Babylonia's AIs love city spam. I did attempt to take it slow and start my conquests only after building Statue of Zeus. On attempt ended in collapse because of over -20 stability penalty for razing cities in Egypt and even successful one had me at one point losing money while running 0% science because of number of cities maintenance. Before one could just snipe core cities but now UHV requires control of every city in the area.
Required wonders all have nice effects so building the doesn't feel waste. Statue of Zeus especially is amazing for conquest. But speaking of wonders, I think it would be cool if Greece could sometimes build the Oracle. Autoplay starts on Regent had Babylonia build it before Greek start 8/10 starts and rest of the time it was completed before I could connect Marble.
Dracosolon
King
What would be the best way to achieve this? Make its tech requirements come a bit later, or introduce some condition? (Excluding Babylon with, say, a coastal city requirement would make its UHV significantly harder, I think?)
black213
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2010
- Messages
- 1,696
Adding a fish requirement to it was an effective solution in my opinion, in @Imp. Knoedel 's modmod Sunset. Technically Babylon and Egypt can still snatch it if so determined, but unlikely to occur by the AI.
Just an idea
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2016
- Messages
- 97
I don't like idea of resource locking Babylonia out of building Oracle because that would require major rebalancing of their first UHV condition. Something I noticed is that Babylonia and Egypt when AI controlled don't immediately switch to Slavery, so adding civic requirement could work.
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