Civilisation Attributes open discussion

[Xfactor]

A small suggestion regarding the Greek/Persian rivalary - would it be possible to implement some Persian conqs which spawn in Anatolia/Near Constantinopole? I've always thought that Persians are strong when played by the player, but when the AI plays them, hey usually lack in something... Greek AI and Roman AI get alot of conquerers so they can forge their historical empires, so was just wondering if Persia can't get some kind of a small boost to threaten the Greeks in a way. Usually after the greek conqs AI persia very rearly recovers , if they've even done anything.

As for England - i fully support "butchering" them early - i've been played 1SDAN's version DoC , where England starts just with 1 settler - to settle London basically, and 3xbows + 1 Longbow, Independant Scotland(3xbows) spawns and Independant Ireland(2?xbows) as well once you land on the island , which is quite interesting. The AI handles it poorly , even though they get conqs for Ireland (not sure on scotland) , but they always fall behind and are no where near what the England in Leo's DoC can do.
My suggestion is here pretty much the same as the other people - you can give them 2 settlers + 4xbows when a player starts with them, to hinder a bit the ability for explosive growth, and spawn indy scotland + ireland once England spawns as well. Nerfing the starting situation will definetly delay some of the early growth and "balance out" gameplay.

As for the UHVs - i like the idea for settling additional cities on each continent in 1860 , on top of the original 1730 goal. Currently i have no ideas for the 3rd UHV (industrialization) , but i'd like to sound of something like getting specific techs which kicked off the age + X amount of cities have access to "power".

 

[EmperorNorton]

Thank you Leoreth (and others) for creating and continuing to develop such a fantastic game! I've been playing for a long time and lurking in the background here.

I really like these ideas about England. I think a UHV should revolve around the Industrial Revolution. Discover steam engine by ..., acquire .. sheep and ... cotton resources before ...., have a city that produces the most hammers for a 100 year period from .... to ....

A total hammer goal sounds cool, or maybe average hammer output per city in core. If implemented right it seems like that would naturally encourage industrialization, building factories and coal power, attracting the steel industry, etc.

 

[phoenixfire7]

Maybe the industrial revolution goal could be: power 10 cities and make London the world's largest and most productive city in 1860 AD. Instead of a tech goal, this makes you get the techs for powering cities and making London big. The problem is I don't think the AI would become that technologically advanced so a goal with clear numbers like 25 population and 300 hammers per turn might be better if there is barely any competition with the AI.

 

[Rogue_Trooper]

Having to conquer Scotland and Ireland would be much better than the implied unity that the game currently portrays

With the new map a great idea. Currently the map's too small for this kind of "individual county" type specification.

 

[Rogue_Trooper]

Maybe the industrial revolution goal could be: power 10 cities and make London the world's largest and most productive city in 1860 AD. Instead of a tech goal, this makes you get the techs for powering cities and making London big. The problem is I don't think the AI would become that technologically advanced so a goal with clear numbers like 25 population and 300 hammers per turn might be better if there is barely any competition with the AI.

I think of London as being more of a commercial and cultural city in the game. Manchester's your archetypal mill town (using cotton and sheep resources from the colonies) with Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, Sheffield as production powerhouses (because that's where the foundries, rail workshops, shipbuilding, etc, were). I suppose it's whatever fits the map and your choice of city placements.

 

[phoenixfire7]

I think the normal city placement is London, Plymouth, Edinburgh and there's not really space for any other decent cities so a more production based north doesn't seem to fit in that well (even in the new map, it's still about the same).

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

This is a list of my suggestions and proposals for many civs.

Spoiler [B]America[/B] :

· UP: It should implement Canada’s power. They get more immigrants than anyone while Canada’s power doesn’t get that many, making their power useless.

· UHV: UHV2 should include Hollywood and the WTC rather than the UN.

Spoiler [B]Aztecs[/B] :

UU: They have the Jaguar, but to have another unit along, the Eagle warrior was actually a higher rank within the Aztec army, my suggestion is that it replaces the Spearman or Pikeman, having good movement on forests and hills. Another one could be the Atlatl (Skirmisher/Longbowman), more effective either against Barbarians or at conquering cities.

· UHV: “Enslave 20 Old World Units” is doable and has no time limit, but it’s tedious. A suggestion would be “Enslave 20 units and raze two/three foreign colonies by 1800 AD”.

Spoiler [B]Babylon[/B] :

· UHV: I agree with what someone said about fusing the culture and population UHVs, so I suggest “Make Babylon the most cultured and populated city in 700 BC”, while UHV3 would be either “Have three Wonders in your capital by 600 BC” or “Build the Hanging Gardens and the Ishtar Gate by 600 BC”.

Spoiler [B]Canada[/B] :

· UP: Either there should be more immigrants or the power should be changed. I propose either something that makes peaceful city acquisition easier or extra culture and GP points everytime you end wars through diplomacy.

Spoiler [B]Colombia[/B] :

· UHV: Controlling every single city in South America is rather tedious. My suggestion is “Allow no European colonies in South America and control or vassalize Peru, Argentina, Chile, and Brazil by/in 1920”.

Spoiler [B]Egypt[/B] :

· UHV: The Great Sphinx should be added to UHV2 for accuracy, but neither it nor the Pyramids can be built historically accurately on time without whipping. Such ability could be enabled with either the Sphinx, their unique building, or the Pyramids.

Spoiler [B]France[/B] :

· UHV: The second UHV should be changed to either 1815 or 1830 AD, and maybe add 45 or 50 per cent of each to make up for the extended date. Napoleon’s empire didn’t even start until 1804, so if anything should remain in 1800 of that UHV is the North America part.
The third UHV should also include the Triumphal Arch.

Spoiler [B]HRE/Austria[/B] :

· UHV: The second UHV somehow represents the Habsburg possessions. While Spain was one of them, it was either in personal union or as the cadet branch rather than a German domain, and Spain administered many territories in the Netherlands and Italy. So, my proposal is “Have a total of three/six Catholic vassals and Defensive Pact partners in 1650 AD” (Also counting your partners’ vassals).
The third UHV should be “eight or all European independent civilizations” just in case there are not even eight civs in Europe.

Spoiler [B]Greece[/B] :

· UU: In order to make the conquest faster, Companions should also have the Commando promotion and add their healing and movements benefits to units within the same tile.

· UHV: 2nd UHV requirement could use a few more turns and accuracy by being extended to either 315 or 300 BC.

Spoiler [B]Indonesia[/B] :

· UHV: Others have already said what I think of the UP and the third UHV, so I’ll say the first UHV’s population requirements aren’t clear: Total city population units? That population statistic? If so, how is it increased?

Spoiler [B]Italy[/B] :

· UHV: 3rd UHV should also include Ethiopia and Somalia.

Spoiler [B]Japan[/B] :

· UHV: First UHV should have a military complement beyond the implied garrison with the Himeji castle, like having a certain number of Samurais, Castles, and/or Great Generals. Rebel and Ainu units could spawn at certain times in order to give Samurais experience while they have to wait to invade Korea.
Third UHV should be extended to either 1945 or 1950, and add another land like Polynesia.

Spoiler [B]Maya[/B] :

· UHV: Most guides recommend building the Temple of Kukulcan either in Tikal or Danibaan as Yucatan has very poor production. A Stone resource should be added there.

Spoiler [B]Mexico[/B] :

· UB: The Charreada Arena is pretty cool, but something more representative of Mexico could be the Ranch (Estate or Granary, same Mounted Unit bonuses as Charreada Arena and +1 extra food per Pasture, Farm, and Plantation)

· UP: This power should also affect Desert tiles.

· UHV: The first UHV is pretty boring and the 2nd one is interesting but it means you have to play in a historically inaccurate way, as Mexico was more about defending from internal and foreign enemies from its conception to the early 20th century. I’ll have to admit that I’m struggling to come up for better ideas but as for the 1st UHV, it should represent either the Reformation or the Porfiriate. My ideas are the following:
UHV1: Acquire three technologies through trade and have a Golden Age by 1910 AD.
UHV2: Get one/two Great General(s) without ever losing a city by 1910/1940 AD. This means you’ll have to defend yourself from the Americans and conquer Spanish colonies nearby. French and Spanish interventions could also be represented by having conqueror events only for the human player.

Spoiler [B]Phoenicia/Carthage[/B] :

· UHV: The unique power conflicts with the 3rd UHV, pretty much like Byzantium. Use your power to make it easier to conquer Spain and Rome and lose a probability of winning the last requirement? It should be a “by” requirement instead of an “in” requirement.

Spoiler [B]Poland[/B] :

· UHV: The third requirement shouldn’t exclude Judaism, so it should be “Build a Jewish Sanhedrin and a Cathedral of each Christian religion by 1600 AD”.

Spoiler [B]Prussia/Germany[/B] :

· UHV: The second requirement should be extended to either 1945 or 1950 in order to have some accuracy. To make it more accurate, I suggest adding Central Europe and “have a defensive pact or friendly relations with a total of five other European civilizations in 1950 AD”.

Spoiler [B]Turkestan[/B] :

· UHV: The first requirement is almost unwinnable in the 600 AD scenario, as the Middle East has little to no improved lands to pillage.

 

[brett0007]

On Byzantium, Should the UU be tied to Constantinople? Something like every pop gives 10 or 5% trade routes, or while holding Constantinople you get a diplo boost with all christian civs or something along these lines.
Name it, "The power of the City of the Worlds Desire"

 

[phoenixfire7]

Maybe there should be bonuses for making Constantinople a big city

 

[Hickman888]

France:

1.) Unique units- France currently has two unique units, the Gendarme and the Guard, both heavy cavalry, and unlocked with Combined Arms and Biology respectively. When I think of Napoleon, however, I think about his awesome use of artillery, and how he marched all over Europe and Egypt to conquer. I don't necessarily think of his cavalry. Furthermore, with the French conquest goal being at 1800 AD, the player will probably do the majority of their conquests in the 17th and 18th centuries, well before the discovery of biology. So to both of these ends, I propose both of these units get replaced with two new ones:

Garde Impériale: Replaces the Musketeer, unlocked with Combined Arms, starts with Leadership promotion, has 2 movement points.
Gribeauval: Replaces the Cannon, unlocked with Combined Arms, starts with Leadership promotion, has 2 movement points.

These proposed unique units do a lot to help the player who is choosing to go for a French historical victory: First, the historical French player will be beelining towards the bottom half of the tech tree in the Renaissance, in order to research Civil Liberties so that they can build the Louvre, National Gallery, and adopt Tolerance right away. Making these units unlock at Combined Arms will make them just a bit more accessible to the player who had to beeline to Civil Liberites first. (If you feel that unlocking these unique units at Combined Arms is too early, I still propose putting both of these unique units together at Replaceable Parts, as it would help reduce the tech burden on the player in the 17th and 18th centuries, when the French player has a lot going on.) Second, their 2 movement points allow the player to quickly move around and besiege Europe, encouraging the player to do the majority of their conquests after unlocking these units. And third, the Leadership promotion, taken from the French Gendarme and Guard, will allow the French player to quickly become the most elite fighting force in Europe.

2.) Wonders- The Triumphal Arch (Arc de Triomphe) is currently not a required wonder for the French. Wikipedia tells me that Napoleon ordered the construction in 1806, but due to delays from the fall of the empire, it wasn't finished until 1836. Since the timeline of the game assumes that Napoleon was conquering in the 18th century, I think we should make the Arc de Triomphe not only required for the 3rd French goal, but make it available a bit earlier, at Measurement. Similar to how the Greeks can leverage the Statue of Zeus for military expansionism, this wonder, coupled with the leadership promoted French units, will allow the Grande Armée to quickly occupy Europe. And later on down the line, if the French are encouraged to build this wonder, it would be captured by a Prussian historical player, who can then use the wonder for similar effects with their Panzers. Secondly, the Eiffel Tower provides +50% . Building this wonder in Paris doesn't serve a purpose, as Paris should have achieved Legendary culture in 1700 anyways. Maybe a "+10% per culture level" would more fitting, as it would also help the player recruit more great people to use for the Eiffel Tower's power. (Maximum of 3 great people used to start a golden age.)

3.) Small issues/Nitpicking- The third goal, titled "City of Lights", just requires the player to construct the required wonders. In fact, once the player has gotten Legendary culture in Paris, there is little need to build the remaining wonders in Paris, especially because it has poor production. This goal should be changed to "Construct the following wonders in Paris". Building off that, the French wine and the iron on the hills to the north of Marseille should swap tiles. This would allow Paris to have at least one production resource it can utilize in the construction of its many wonders. Napoleon's favorite civic is Revolutionism, despite this civic being unlocked in the mid/late 19th century. I think a more proper "favorite civic" of his would be Nationhood. And lastly, to further incentivize the player to do the majority of their European conquests in the Renaissance, the French player should start the game with less swordsmen, and more crossbowmen.

 

[phoenixfire7]

The new unique units could possibly get added without removing the old ones

 

[BaneFire]

You know I'm surprised we haven't really mentioned America's UHV1. To me there's nothing more un-immersive than playing America and doing marine invasions of various Caribbean islands in the 1810s. Yes America has intervened in the Caribbean historically, yes they took efforts to remove Spain from the Carribean, but beyond that, it's not exactly like American minutemen were naval-invading the Barbados in Galleons in the 1820s as they currently are.
Some of it makes sense (Mexico, Canada) but some doesn't. I know that generic conquest UHVs get a lot of hate, but to be honest I think they're fine, they make you do some military stuff while letting you work on your econ/tech once you've achieved them. Therefore I propose something a bit simpler:

America UHV1: "Empire of Liberty", "Sea to Shining Sea" or keep the current "Manifest Destiny". "Control or vassalise Mexico, California, Canada, Cuba, the Philippines, Guam and Samoa by 19xx".

Along with this, I would also like to see Spain+Mexico start with colonies in California in the 1700AD start. The combination of this means as America instead of the current gameplay which is kind of dull, that is suiciding Grenadiers into Caribbean ports, your new gameplay would be rushing California+Mexico, then either building up California to get ships out of San Francisco+Seattle, or capturing/founding the Panama Canal to get your east coast navy to ship stuff to the Pacific.

 

[phoenixfire7]

Puerto Rico and Liberia are the other places that could be included. It would also be cool if some kind of civil war mechanic could be added

 

[Leoreth]

I'm one of the people with the widespread distaste for conquest goals, especially if so fine grained and specific. Can we think of something indirect that drives America towards early conquest?

To be honest, I don't really like how the military aspect of their UHV is so frontloaded though. That's not very historically accurate for the most part, because the US wasn't really about picking fights with major powers until the 20th century really, it was mostly expansionism at the expense of native peoples and Mexico. And the fact that you're forced to go for conquest early makes you rush that part and you wind up fairly powerful early if successful, when a more historical experience would be to build up semi peacefully and then suddenly become really powerful.

Not sure if the current third goal is actually powerful but I'd love a Pax Americana goal to be actually somewhat impressive because of the dominance that the US had at their 1990 peak.

Maybe the first goal can be freed for something else then. Just bullying Mexico around and acquiring some islands is underwhelming imo.

 

[1SDANi]

I'm one of the people with the widespread distaste for conquest goals, especially if so fine grained and specific. Can we think of something indirect that drives America towards early conquest?

To be honest, I don't really like how the military aspect of their UHV is so frontloaded though. That's not very historically accurate for the most part, because the US wasn't really about picking fights with major powers until the 20th century really, it was mostly expansionism at the expense of native peoples and Mexico. And the fact that you're forced to go for conquest early makes you rush that part and you wind up fairly powerful early if successful, when a more historical experience would be to build up semi peacefully and then suddenly become really powerful.

Not sure if the current third goal is actually powerful but I'd love a Pax Americana goal to be actually somewhat impressive because of the dominance that the US had at their 1990 peak.

Maybe the first goal can be freed for something else then. Just bullying Mexico around and acquiring some islands is underwhelming imo.

Lemme spitball some

Control (culturally every tile) Alaska and the mainland United States? I can see getting your culture over all of the tiles Alaska and the desert hills in the west as quite a challenge, though perhaps that'd encourage ahistorical culture growth.

Control the 5 (6? 7?) most economically powerful cities in the New World? Choose whatever number that meets a good median between smallness and encouraging players to settle and build up California. Would encourage historical expansion, though perhaps at the cost of the midwest.

Be the most Commercially and Agrarianly Powerful nation in the New World? Agrarianly isn't in any dictionaries but it conveys the idea well. This would hopefully encourage settling and building up the midwest and Californina, but perhaps other New World Civs aren't powerful enough to actually force it or be much of a challenge. I don't play much 1700 AD games so I wouldn't know.

 

[KeeperOT7Keys]

be 2x the size of the 2nd largest and 3x populous from the 2nd most populated country in the Americas by ~1900?
or a small domination victory condition that only checks the Americas? I think having half of the population in the Americas would be a hard but interesting goal.

 

[ozqar]

Just throwing out some ideas for the US.

UHV1 (From Sea to Shining Sea): Have a total (accumulated?) output of X hammers/production and X food in cities connected by railroad network AND free from slaves by (maybe?) 1865 .
This should encourage settling a lot of cities (since it's the total that counts, not the average) and keep expansion in historical lands (easy to connect by railway), giving some flexibility as to how far into Mexico / Canada the player wants to go, and highlight the economic development and settling aspect of american expansionism, including the use of railroad. By counting only cities that have no slaves, the player has also a dilemma on whether to keep slaves in the south, but not being able to count those cities towards the UHV, or free them in a historical fashion. By accumulated I mean to count and add it every turn (or every so many turns) so that the player has an incentive to act as quickly as possible for example in getting rid of slavery.

UHV2 (Arsenal of Democracy): Have X civs in Europe, X civs in Asia and X civs in the Americas with positive views towards you and in full control of their core territory by 1950.
The name refers to a specific policy in WW2, but I think it applies well to a broader period/context, although it could be another name if "democracy" is not wanted specifically. This should encourage the player to develop its military capacity, have to play an active role in world affairs and yet not abuse its industrial/military power to conquer everything. The goal then combines both WW1 and WW2 and also captures most of the "ensure no European colonies in North and South America" goal. Many US allies and partners during this period were not democracies (Saudis, Thais, Russians, Latin American dictatorships, etc), so I refrained from adding "sharing your government civics" in the condition.

UHV3 (Leader of the Free World): Have a total (accumulated?) cultural, scientific, and economic output of X by all civs, incl. yourself, (sharing your government civics and positive views towards you) OR (sharing a military alliance with you) by 2000; or a phrasing like (the current) 75% of the cultural and economic output by (the same civs) would also work.
This is similar to current UV3, but it includes culture to refer to the soft power of the US. This implicitly encourages the player to build the wonders currently in UHV2, but it also allows the player to let their allies take some wonders. It includes both NATO in the scope as well as Asian, North and South American, and other countries that are strong trading partners of the US. The OR condition is meant to encourage the player to actively seek countries adopt democracy, hence referring to the Cold War but also to a long history of interventions across the Global South justified by "giving freedom" to the people there, while it also includes non-democratic allies like Saudi Arabia. It also encourages the player to protect trade across the world (ie, stopping blockades), since it wants all its allies to be trading. I removed the military power part of the current UHV3 because that is partially needed to install democracies, ensure you have the power to protect trade, etc. I included a shared scientific goal because no civ has that currently, and while the US does most of its scientific developments by itself (and that is allowed in the UHV), it does have some shared research investments like with the ISS and the Human Genome project, which can also be reflected in the UHV.

Edits: Some corrections above. But also, I'm thinking the UHV3 I proposed perhaps should rather be: X % of cultural and scientific output by yourself, and X % of economic output shared by civs with close ties as described above. That would be more historical.

 

[Leoreth]

Why not let cities with slaves count for three fifths? Seems like a fair compromise.

American history does have a lot of snappy phrases you can us for historical goals. Good branding.

 

[ozqar]

Oh yeah, slave-using cities could count at a lower percentage, that could also work. I wanted to reflect a bit of the conflicts of the civil rights movement in the 19th Century by explicitly excluding slave-owning cities, thus also having the player go through some experience akin to the american civil war and the economic dilemmas it represented for the country.

Here are some for the Aztecs:
UHV1 (The City at the Navel of the Moon): Have a population of X and a culture of X in Tenochtitlan by 1520.
The name refer's to the etymology of the word Mexico and the Aztec worldvision which saw Tenochtitlan at the intersection of the axes of the universe. It's the same as the current UHV, except that it includes also a culture goal. This reflects not only the city's engineering and demographic feats, but also the city's temples, palaces and festivals. I generally find that "the most populous city" goals are not really nice because they are so much luck dependent, so perhaps a concrete population target would work well instead.

I don't have anything to say about UHV2 for now

UHV3 (Blood for the Fifth Sun): Sacrifice X units by 1820
I added 1820 as deadline, because in a game where the Aztecs were never colonized, I would still like at 1820 for Mexico to spawn - not as a post-colonial Latin American nation, but as a modern state inheritor of the Aztec empire (more on that below). The name refers to the Aztec belief that we lived in the fifth age (or sun) of the universe, and that human sacrifice kept the sun going. I don't think that "old world" units should necessarily be part of this UHV, but I'm also not 100% what counts as old world there. For example, I see that if the Aztecs survive the European conquerors but there are European colonies elsewhere in the region, units from those cities should count towards the goal, but the same goes for units from the mayas, incas, and independent or new indigenous civs. Going to Europe/Asia to get some units for sacrifice is actually quite ahistorical for an empire that was always land-based. Finally, I think the UHV condition should be the sacrifice of the units, rather than simply the enslavement.

Change to UP: Human sacrifices grant culture instead of or in addition to happiness.
Currently sacrifices grant happiness, but sacrifices were in Aztec society part of the religious order of the world, not popular entertainment (although, yes, people watched them). Sacrifices meant that the priesthood and the elites were keeping the order of the universe, akin of having a faithful society, so culture points are better fitting. This also aligns with UHV1 now having a culture component.

Additional UU: Oztomecatl (replaces spy)
The Aztecs traders (pochteca) had a special class of merchants called oztomecatl, that acted as spies as well as importers of luxury materials. The oztomecatl were a key component of aztec society, especially in that they imported the luxury materials demanded by the noble and religious elite.
- has a new spy mission that provides access to a luxury resource (for X turns) in the city where they are stationed, and
- grants both gold and espionage points while stationed in a foreign city
Espionage points are not so useful against independents, but this makes the UU useful in the region, and fitting for aztec history.

The Aztec to Mexico transition
In a dream world, I'd love to be able to play the Aztecs to 1820, survive the colonization, and then be able to modernize and convert my civ into Mexico without losing the game, collapsing in any way, or that being dependent on my stability, rather that in 1820, right after completing my 3rd UHV, I get a notification telling me "You win a historical victory, but the world is changing and new ideas and beliefs are emerging. The people seek to reconstruct our civilization for the future. Would you like to continue playing as the Mexican civilization?".
If I click yes, I get a period of anarchy and the possibility to change my civics and state religion, and then I can play for the Mexican UHVs. In the particular case of Mexico and the Aztecs, I would also guarantee that Catholicism appears in Mexico city at least. If I click no, I continue playing as the Aztecs, no anarchy, but no new UHVs, just sandbox play. I'd like to see the same for Persia becoming Iran, Greece becoming Byzantium, and Rome becoming Italy in the respective spawn dates of those civs.

 

[Leoreth]

Interesting. I think UHV2 is the weakest of the bunch though. I wonder if a Sunset Invasion goal wouldn't still be the most fun replacement. It's kind of a meme, but "control the core of a European civilisation by X AD" could be interesting. If you remove the "old world" requirement from the enslavement goal you still get enough conflict with Europe this.

Change to UP: Human sacrifices grant culture instead of or in addition to happiness.
Currently sacrifices grant happiness, but sacrifices were in Aztec society part of the religious order of the world, not popular entertainment (although, yes, people watched them). Sacrifices meant that the priesthood and the elites were keeping the order of the universe, akin of having a faithful society, so culture points are better fitting. This also aligns with UHV1 now having a culture component.

Hm, I actually thought the inverse, what if sacrifice gave food? It could make population goals more dynamic because slaves could allow you to push cities beyond the natural limitations of the surrounding tiles. I don't know if city population goals are very engaging otherwise, because you can either improve its tiles to yield sufficient food or you cannot. Although I guess health and happiness also play a role.

I always thought the happiness/celebration aspect of sacrifices was kind of lacklustre, culture makes a lot more sense in that context. It could also erase temporary unhappiness.

Oh yeah, slave-using cities could count at a lower percentage, that could also work. I wanted to reflect a bit of the conflicts of the civil rights movement in the 19th Century by explicitly excluding slave-owning cities, thus also having the player go through some experience akin to the american civil war and the economic dilemmas it represented for the country.

Sorry, I was just making a joke.