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Civilisation Attributes open discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. Steb

    Steb King

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    I'm not convinced this makes sense. Mexico and the other successor civilizations in your examples are distinct from the ancestor civilization precisely because those ancestors collapsed and were conquered by others. If you survive until the successor's spawn date, there's really no reason to force characteristics of the successors on the ancestor culture, except as a gimmick to allow play. I doubt that adding this gimmick would be worthwhile.

    Your other ideas for the Aztecs are good! I'm totally in favor of replacing or improving the UHV3 about enslaving European units. It's too luck dependent to be much fun. I also like the spy UU idea. However, I prefer the UHV1 goal to be more specialized (food as opposed to food + culture).
    Agreed, a sunset invasion goal would be fun, even if not super serious. Agreed also that UHV2 is a bit boring and not even particularly historical—it requires you to build more cities than the historical areas can support. In general, the Aztecs were a very centralized civilization, so goals that encourage a strong city rather than a large empire are better I think.

    There are lots of different luxury resources in Mesoamerica (especially on the larger map), so there could be a goal about that. It would synergize well with the Oztomecatl UU idea. EDIT: the goal could be something like maximize happiness in your capital city. You could use luxury resources, sacrifices, military presence, pagan temples and other buildings, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yeah I thought the same. The Aztecs and Mexico will probably be very different overall because the level of detail is so much greater on the new map, and a lot of the flaws of their game come from how cramped everything is and how the richness of the land isn't properly reflected. For example, there is now much more space for barbarian neighbours to have some proper flower wars against.
     
  3. Hickman888

    Hickman888 Warlord

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    America:

    1.)
    Historical Goals- I agree with Leoreth that the first goal is sort of inappropriate for America, and encourages ahistorical gameplay. Here's how I would change the historical goals:
    • Pax Americana: Control 75% of North and South America's commercial/military power between you, your vassals, and your allies in 1900; And control 75% of the world's commercial/military power between you, your vassals, and your allies in 1990.
    This change would give the American player a bit of freedom (heh) in the way they choose to pursue their 19th century America. They can choose to grow and develop their infrastructure and alliances relatively peacefully, or they can go out and vassalize Mexico or Colombia, in line with the Mexican-American War and the fillibusters of the 19th century. Also, I am not sure if the "commercial power" of the current Pax Americana just refers to ( :commerce: ), or it refers to ( :gold:,:science:,:culture:,:espionage:). But if it is the former, I propose that it be changed to the latter. Doing this would showcase many things: the immense capital development of America (think "Great Buildings" produced by great people, such as stock exchanges and academies), the peaking of American culture in the 1980s, and the enormous spying apparatus that I am blessed to live under. Additionally, if nukes do not currently count towards the military power, they should be changed to. We don't currently have a historical goal that implicitly or explicitly involves nuclear weapon building, and this would be a good fit for America.
    • Shining City on a Hill: Construct Statue of Liberty, Hollywood, Empire State Building, Pentagon, United Nations, and Graceland by 1960 AD
    I removed the two bridge wonders (Brooklyn and Golden Gate) and added Hollywood and Graceland to the wonder list because I feel that America's dominance in film and music is more emblematic of its "city on a hill" status than those bridges are. America is still incentivized to build these wonders due to the amount of rivers and specialists they have, but I don't believe they fit as hard requirements.
    • American Capitalism: Have your corporations provide a total of XXX commercial and base yield ( :food:,:hammers:,:gold:,:culture:,:science:) by 2020.
    Just like there is currently no historical goal associated with nuclear weapons, there is also no historical goal associated with modern corporations. (The closest we have is the Turks and their silk road requirement.) This suggestion would push the historical player to do several historical things: build the World Trade Center, search/trade for resources (oil) abroad, and stick with Free Enterprise.

    2.) Unique Units- I am a big fan of the Pioneer, and so I have no problems with it. The Minuteman is also okay, but if we are changing the American goals to be less "19th century war-making" heavy, I think we can afford it if the Minuteman is replaced with another unit. I propose the re-introduction of the Navy SEAL unit from the base game.

    Navy SEAL- Replaces the Marine, has 1-2 extra first strikes, starts with March promotion.

    Due to the amount of foreign wars America has fought in the 20th century up till the present day, I think this unit will help the America player do more damage with their units, as well as heal faster for the next attack.

    3.) Unique Power- I am not so sure that providing American cities with extra happiness is exactly realistic, as American history is rife with protests of all sorts. Though it might serve its purpose in keeping American cities happy, I generally don't think there's a special case to be made for American cities needing to be exceptionally happy. I would much rather see America pickup Canada's current unique power (immigrants bring :gp: to your cities). I can think of several prominent immigrants to America off the top of my head: Carnegie, Schwarzenegger, Einstein. This new power would also fit in well with Democracy.

    4.) Small issues/Nitpicking- Lincoln's favorite civic should maybe be Nationhood instead of Constitution, as this could encourage the AI player to drop Isolationism sooner than the 20th century, and also represents his goal of "preserving the union." The cow in the Louisiana basin should be moved 1 tile NW, so New Orleans can be properly placed at the mouth of the Mississippi River. And the spices tile in south Texas should either be made into historical territory for America, or the river should empty out into the Gulf one tile north of it, as the Rio Grande is the border between America and Mexico. And I agree with Banefire that Spain should start with control of California in the 1700 AD map, and it should be in the Mexico flipzone.
     
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Other units I could think of for a more modern America could be:

    Supercarrier (Carrier): more combat, movement, capacity, intercept chance, starts with Medic I+II
    Stratofortress (Bomber): longer range, higher evade chance, greater bombard damage

    By the way, when multiple UUs were first introduced I made a point to not force two UUs for everyone and this was deliberate to establish the idea that not all civs have the same number of UUs. My general attitude would be to allow three UUs only for civs that have a long lasting historical impact in multiple eras that have to be represented with different units. That said, if a civ has an outsized importance in the modern era, multiple UUs could also be permissible because the advantage that UUs need to provide needs to be disproportionately high to make a difference late in the game. So multiple late game UUs is not as much of an advantage as multiple late game UUs. Not to mention that Carriers and Bombers are not the same as mainline infantry units.
     
  5. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Oh... hahaha I had never heard about the three fifths compromise.

    I also don't like Aztec UHV2, but didn't have anything good to propose instead (I'm still thinking about it). I agree with Steb, it implies ahistorical expansion that the Aztecs didn't manage - although that they were certainly working for. The Aztec empire was still ongoing expansion at the time of the Spanish arrival. For them, expansion was a way of adding tributary provinces to, indeed, bring wealth to the valley of Mexico. They never actually imposed direct government on provinces, but simply left the rulers to retain all autonomy so long as they provided tribute.

    The Aztecs did consume human meat after the sacrifice, but the food energy balance but this was only for ritual purposes, only some people did it (I guess, the priests and nobles) and is also a very low food source to make that an accurate representation - humans are not the best feed-to-food converters in the animal kingdom. A temporary happiness boost I guess could also be in order, but perhaps not spot on. Happiness for the Aztecs would be best represented by the acquisition of luxury resources - hence the role of the Oztomecatl. By the way, when we move to the new map, I'd like to bring up again the possibility of changing the location of some of the luxury resources away from Tenochtitlan and to put them in southern mesoamerica and in central america instead - for example, I think with the last edits we made we left rubber (or was it cacao?) at reach from Tenochtitlan, while in reality, those were imports from far south and a main reason for Aztec expansion.

    Regarding city size - yeah, I think that what we could bring in as a challenge would be the balance between constructing different buildings and wonders - in particular the floating gardens - and the need to build units to acquire happiness and resources. I don't think the UHV challenge should be to build every possible farm, but rather to acquire enough health and happiness sources to allow for the city's natural growth. Which leads me to:

    Floating Gardens: Provides X food per Y (TBD) and X health.
    Currently the floating gardens wonder gives a static amount of food (6) and culture. I think it would be interesting to tie this wonder to food production in a scalable way. I thought first to link it to the number of specialists (ie, 1 food per specialist in the city) representing the work of engineers in managing the water around the lake (and allowing for food production and preventing flooding), but while that would be very historical, perhaps it would lead to a loop of more food = more specialists = more food. If somehow this could be balanced, that would be very, very fitting. An alternative would be to grant 1 food per luxury resource in the city or 1 food per city in the empire, the second of these would be very nice because it would represent food tribute sent to the city from across the empire. However, if you're willing to consider another wonder for the Aztecs, the Huei Teocalli (Tenochtitlan's Templo Mayor) would be perfect for this as, as a symbol for the political and religious power in the city, it would be very fitting to a conquest and tribute-based strategy to make the city grow.

    About the sunset invasion idea - in my opinion it's so ahistorical that I feel it's more of a joke (or, as you say, a meme). Please indulge my imagination with this alt-history ramble (and I know, those are impossible to get right or impossible to prove, but perhaps something sensible can come out of them), but since both UHV2 and UHV3 fall into alt-history territory (with their deadlines past the conquest), they merit wondering what that time would have been like and what the Aztecs would have done then.

    Spoiler What if ramble here :
    Looking at it from within the confines of the alternate scenario it's supposed to represent, it doesn't make too much sense to get the player to conquer a European core. Why would an uncolonized Aztec empire ever want to take some cities far away from its shores? What I would imagine would happen is that without a successful Spanish conquest and assuming no insurrection against the Aztecs, the Aztecs would have retained some or most of their holdings and kept their empire going in a similar track as they were. Certainly, while the Spanish conquest was actually really improbable, an indigenous insurrection against them was very, very much a possibility. In game that would mean instability and partial or complete collapse, but under successful (human player) management, that could be overcome. Hence what would be next? Likely some sociocultural transformation from the exposition to European civs and the expansion of Christianity (or any other mass-appealing, proselityzing religion) is almost a given as well. While the sacrifices kept the order of the world (also, the political legitimacy of the elites), for peasants and lower classes they were not the most fun part of the year. I can imagine that for an uncolonized aztec empire that felt secure in its borders and political control, and that was interested in accessing luxury resources, trade with Europeans would be certainly allowed. The Aztecs and other mesoamerican civs were not isolationists, they traded as far as they could (southwest US, the Caribbean, deep down Central America and possibly the Andes). With trade would come missionaries and the Aztec religion was a syncretizing one, so they wouldn't right away frown at the Christian god. For most lower class people, conversion would be very appealing but probably not so desirable to the priestly and noble elites whose legitimacy was at least partly tied to the mesoamerican faith. So I see how the Aztecs would not take Christianity as state religion, but that it would creep into the empire, cause unhappiness, etc. Without a conquest of the valley of Mexico, and the fail of Cortes' expedition, I imagine the Spanish would send more ships from Cuba, and without the element of surprise, a conquest by the other ones would be more difficult. But it would be reasonable to expect them to settle cities in northern Mexico and along the gulf coast, and down in Central America. Those cities would have traded and fought with the Aztecs. I don't imagine, however, the Aztecs sending galleons to Europe to get slaves because that wouldn't make sense for them - it doesn't make sense economically nor politically (there was no conquest to get payback for). I imagine the Aztecs continuing to be a military-religious expansionist power focused on increasing the city's wealth and maintaining the existing political order.


    In conclusion, I think UHV2 (even if its lackluster) makes sense, the state would continue sponsoring the state religion and the construction of temples, and trying to avoid the spread of Christianity or whichever religion had come their way. A UHV3 about unit sacrifice also makes sense within that narrative, but I find it difficult to imagine a conquer a European core as a coherent goal for them. Sure, if it's for the fun of it and just getting a kick out of achieving the opposite of what was historical, that could be fine. For me, as a player myself, I find this immersion breaking and not interesting. Every time I've played the Aztecs I went for UHV1 and 2 and then I sandboxed my way to the future ignoring UHV3.

    And finally, yes, I fully agree with Steb's point that Mexico exists because the Aztec empire fell to the Spanish, and without that conquest event, no Mexico would exist. It would be expected that after centuries of contact with the world, the Aztec empire would change in many ways, but (following from my ramble above), it most probably wouldn't be a modern-tech empire sacrificing slaves to the gods. Hence my proposal that at some point you as a player get the possibility to either continue playing freely or take the new UHVs of Mexico, as Mexico, as those are the only predefined ones that could make sense. It's up to the player in any case, not an obligation.
     
  6. Steb

    Steb King

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    If the Aztecs survive as a human player, they turn into some continuation of the Aztecs that depends on the player's choices for civics, religion, conquests, etc. If instead you turned your Aztec civilization into Mexico, suddenly you'd get Spanish city names, Spanish unit voices, a UHV about a religion that may or may not have spread to you, a leaderhead, UB and UU with Spanish names, core and historical areas based on whatever the Spaniards colonized in real life, etc. To me, continuing to play as the Aztecs sounds much more interesting than this. But I guess the option could exist.
     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yeah, I also think that if the Aztecs do not get colonised, they do not suddenly become Mexico - none of the properties of that civ make sense in that case anyway. An uncolonised Mexican civ is represented by a continued Aztec civ.

    About the Floating Gardens, I like the idea of +1 food per controlled plantation or orchard resource.
     
  8. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    I see how this makes sense - I agree mostly. I do wonder about the conclusions of implementing this to its full conclusions. I imagine that under that type of criteria, no post-colonial civ in their current forms should exist unless their geographical space is colonized by their real-life colonizers. eg: an Ottoman-colonized Northern America should never spawn the US - or anything at all, because how could then we explain the language, civic choices, religion, etc. So, I fully agree with you Steb - but I don't think that the game really does nor should follow that principle in spawning civs.

    Secondly I don't like the possibility of power vacuums that this creates. Most ancient civs get progressively unstable, the game is designed to make them collapse (which is fine). A collapse by game design and an impossibility to spawn a civ if strict conditions don't occur mean there are many chances for spaces to be empty (or independent), leading to much more ahistorical situations. Currently, I see this a lot with Byzantium. Greece can remain stable, survive the Roman conquest, and prevent the Byzantine spawn decently, only to collapse by itself a couple of centuries later. Then there's no Byzantine Empire ever, and we have a power vacuum right in the middle of the world for a thousand years until the Ottoomans spawn. If they spawn, because they also have a conditional spawn. So, fine, I really like stable ancient civs to continue existing to the future past their historical decline dates, but then I'd suggest to have a much more flexible spawn window for their successor civs. The Aztecs suddenly collapse in 1900? Let a Mexican civ spawn then - perhaps with a much smaller flip zone (only Mexico City?); same for a Greece collapse in 500 AD that could then start a Byzantine civ (only with Constantinople?). Also, I want to emphasize that the choice to transition to Mexico is one that I meant to give the human player only. For the AI, it's fine that it follows its course to its eventual collapse, I'd just maintain my suggestion of allowing more flexible spawns for their successors civs.

    But anyway, I won't dwell too much on that. I'm just giving some ideas for discussion and reflection. About the Aztecs, extra food from the floating gardens for each plantation/orchard resource sounds really neat.
     
  9. Steb

    Steb King

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    No need to go there. It has always been a feature of the mod that most civilization spawns occur regardless of what has been happening in the area. Pairs of ancestor-successor civs like Aztecs-Mexico or Persia-Iran are special cases and they work fine as is.

    Agreed that the Floating Gardens idea is good! But a flat +X food wonder is actually cool too. I wouldn't be against adding the Templo Mayor as a second Aztec wonder, though it's notoriously difficult to find good ideas for effects to Mesoamerican temple wonders.
     
  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    If Templo Mayor is added I would like something that gives happiness from fighting a lot? I don't know if it's via defeated enemies or experience or something along those lines.

    I don't think there is much of a concern in terms of empty spaces, except what we want to fill them. Mexico makes sense in some histories, Aztecs in others (more alt-hist ones, for sure). It doesn't predicate railroading because it doesn't need to be Spain who "unlocks" Mexico, any colonial civ can (even though Mexico will always remain Spanish themed because that's the Mexico we have). If a colonial civ (or other replacement civ) has never spawned because its requirements are not met, the previous civ from that area can still return via the respawn rules.

    The only avenue for improvement I see here is to make the respawn intervals for some of those civs more generous in the late game. Aztecs for example assume that they will be dead so they cannot respawn post 1700. Maybe they should. Even for respawns, Aztecs and Mexico are still mutually exclusive so it's not like they can appear if Mexico is already around.
     
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  11. johnfloyd27

    johnfloyd27 Chieftain

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    A Byzantine bonus to spies would make a nice passive. Perhaps a reduced cost to all spy actions, increased chance of success, and/or cheaper spies.

    A fun UH3 might be “Eternal Empire,” recapture the maximum extant of the old Roman Empire, build a summer palace in Rome (if that exists in DoC, I forget), convert everything within those borders to orthodoxy, and hold those exact borders in the year 2000.
     
  12. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    It could be interesting to continue pirate spawns with modern naval units into the late game and tie them to coastal barb and indy cities, and maybe to unsettled coastlines. Then give America a late UHV that requires stopping the pirates, which would usually require conquering those cities and/or patrolling the ocean. It would incentivize building a large navy and naval bases around the world, but it still leaves a lot of flexibility on how to achieve the goal. I'm just not sure how the pirates should work exactly for this to be fun rather than tedious.
     
  13. BaneFire

    BaneFire Warlord

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    I did some brainstorming and here's my American proposals, sharing some with @Hickman888.
    The basis comes partially from Russia: most stuff should be backloaded because they're both such strong growth-wise civilisations, that the player is left some breathing room early game to figure out the best city layouts, tech trees and so on, then the pressure is on mid-late game to start working towards the goals. It also allows for a fun symmetry in goals.

    UHV1: "From Sea to Shining Sea": In 1900, have a railroad from the Atlantic Coast to the Pacific Coast, and control three Atlantic colonies and three Pacific colonies.
    -> Why? A more open ended version of the suggest goals, with the additional fan favourite infrastructure challenge. Three Atlantic colonies would be Cuba, Puerto Rico and Liberia, three Pacific colonies would be Hawaii, Guam and Samoa.

    UHV2: "Shining City upon a Hill": Either same as before, or with the inclusion of Hollywood/WTC that other people have put forwards.
    -> Why? Current UHV is a perfectly good approximation of tech and econ, although I would point out that it kind of neglects the total economic/cultural dominance of America in 1945. An alternative version might be a significantly expanded one with a later date, something like "Statue of Liberty, Golden Gate Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge, Man on the Moon, Lunar Mission, Hollywood, The Internet, etc", basically every American wonder by 2000.

    UHV3: "New World Order": Have the strongest (not largest) military presence on each continent (Europe/South America/Africa/Asia), and ensure that the top 5 civs by score are running democracy, in 2000.
    -> Why? The Pax Americana UHV basically requires you to start conquering way earlier than America did before it became an interventionist world power. This makes a pacifist approach more palatable, and it might also allow for a more espionage based focus. You achieve it by either having a city or open borders on the relevant continent, and having those units in that continent. The "running democracy" thing allows for a fun parallel to the Russian UHV3. Additionally the current UHV3 is often a bit obscure, eg what is commerce, do vassals of allies count, do nukes count towards military power. 2000 is more appropriate because 1945-1990 were the years of the Cold War, but 1990-2000 were really the years of American global peacekeeping. Lastly, "New World Order" is a bit more interesting than "Pax X" which I'm pretty sure both Romans and Mongolia have.
     
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  14. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Yeah, I think under these considerations, the Aztecs should be able to spawn until late in the game. Granting these ancient civs more generous respawn intervals, as you mention, would be a good solution to avoid the empty spaces.

    About the Huei Teocalli, how about granting it 2 of the following: a) espionage points, b) reduced war weariness, or c) temporary stability protection for every sacrifice? That way it synergizes with the UP and UHV3, it encourages constant war (you need slaves to sacrifice) and it can help the player manage the late game (stability, espionage for techs). One of those benefits could be granted to every sacrificial altar in the empire, so it also pairs up well with UHV2.

    Edit: for a much more thematic feel for the Huei Teocalli (how come I didn't think this earlier), perhaps +1 food and +1 military promotion (or X XP points) for every sacrifice.
    Reason: the temple was a double temple for Tlaloc, god of rain, and Huitzilopochtli, god of war.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Speaking of the Sacrificial Altar, shouldn't we replace it with a better UB? Slavery/sacrifice is already captured by the UP, and it feels discordant if you adopt a state religion (although the same could be said of the UP), and we already have a Pagan Temple replacement for the Aztec religion.

    I thought about making Chinampas a building instead of a wonder, but I guess they only make sense in the context of Tenochtitlan's location instead of any other city.

    Other ideas could be Tiyanquitzli (Market replacement), or Temezcalli (Bath replacement). If Tiyanquitzli isn't chosen we could also use Tianguis for Mexico. But I kinda like the idea of representing Pochteca that way. And we could even fold in your merchant espionage idea that way by giving the building an espionage benefit. I'd rather like to reflect the mercantile element of Aztec society a bit more so it isn't all flower wars and sacrifices.
     
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  16. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Tianguis / Tiyanquiztli are literally, just (open air) markets, the word is just the nahuatl translation of market, and I don't think they're that special - although, if you want to add in there the espionage nature of the pochteca, that could work. I think a unique spy unit would be much cooler (and fitting) though. To say a bit more of the oztomecatl, they were one particular type of merchant. Pochtecas being the general word for all merchants (if I'm not mistaken), with other specialized merchants working in the markets, others as commercial judges, etc. Domestic markets (ie, those in the cities) acted more as distribution points and points of sale for basic goods. The oztomecatl were unique because they brought in luxury goods - feathers, jade, perhaps pelts. Those were not brought immediately to the markets, but rather directly sold to the palace and noble houses. This is nitpicking of course, and certainly a level of detail that does not require representation in the game. But the info maybe serves to grasp some of the uniqueness of the aztec's trade system. If you think this is all more fitting in a market building, that's fine. The Temazcalli perhaps are more unique, as steam baths were not as common everywhere, and certainly they were very prominent in society. Temazcal is the modern word used in Mexico to refer to them (like Tianguis for markets), they still exist.

    Chinampas, as you mention, are only relevant for the Tenochtitlan tile. If you want a more broadly applicable thing, then that would be "milpas". Milpas were the multicrop agricultural system used throughout mesoamerica, and the word also refers to the field itself. They were highly productive (as opposed to monocrop systems) and part of why the region was so densely populated. As they're basically farms, though, I don't think they fit well as a UB. Perhaps a unique improvement? or a regional unique improvement applicable to mayan and aztecs alike? not sure you want to go that way though.

    In any case, you're absolutely right to point out that the Aztecs were more than sacrifices and that commerce and sanitation was a major part of their civilization. It's just that the Huei Teocalli was really closely linked to sacrifices, so if we're having it, it makes sense to link it to that. I'm also realizing now I wrote linking the Huei Teocalli to every sacrificial altar, but I got confused, what I was thinking was to link it to every pagan temple. Hence the link to the UHV2 I was mentioning. I wanted to propose something else though, something I had in mind earlier.

    I'd like to discuss having Teotl as a major religion. I'm not 100% of which building to replace with which, but the Huei Teocalli could act as either the shrine or the cathedral replacement, we could have the sacrificial altar and the ball court be either the temple or the cathedral replacement. For the monastery building, we could have the calmecac, and Tlamacazqui could be the name for the missionaries. The pyramid of the sun (teotihuacan's) could also act as a shrine, even if it's from an earlier period, if the Huei Teocalli should rather come as a wonder. The reason why I suggest making it a major religion is simply so all these buildings can be shared by the mayans and aztecs alike (and if it ever happens, by other mesoamerican civs). Currently sacrificial altars are only in the aztec civ and ball courts only in the mayan civ, while both of those things were important throughout mesoamerica. Mesoamericans not only sacrificed people, also plenty of other things, so the sacrificial altar shouldn't be necessarily linked to human sacrifices. Human sacrifices were also practiced by the Maya and other states and civs in the region, just not as prominently as by the Aztecs. The ball court, while currently an arena replacement, was really a religious building - ball games were religious ceremonies more than entertainment. As a belief system, teotl was shared throughout mesoamerica, and it had the highly institutionalized structures related to popular education, economic management, ceremonial duties, ruler legitimacy, and organized priesthood that are characteristic of the other major religions in the game. It would act as hinduism, zoroastrianism, and taoism in that it wouldn't leave its home region and I'd say it would be interesting to see human sacrifices allowed only while having teotl as state religion. One of the problems with my suggestion is that the calmecac, the huei teocalli and the tlamacazqui are nahua names/buildings and not pan-mesoamerican things, but I imagine that extending them to other civs is not completely erroneous - step pyramids with temples on top and institutions for priestly education existed everywhere, I just don't know what they were called in other languages.
     
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  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I think in general the relevance of the pochteca is a unique feature of the Aztec civilisation. Sure a tiyanquitzli is "just" a market, but it is representative of the activities that were going on there and the culture surrounding the people who did it. A Roman forum is also "just" a market. A unique building is often an architectural representation of a distinctive cultural feature that is not inherent to the physical building itself.
     
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  18. Steb

    Steb King

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    I chose the Temazcal as a UB for Teotihuacan in my mod. It's another of these buildings that can fit any Mesoamerican civilization. To be honest, it wasn't a very inspired choice, and I picked it because there wasn't anything obvious to give Teotihuacan. I gave it a flat health bonus, which also isn't super interesting. I wonder what other effects could be used instead.

    The tiyanquitzli sounds like a more interesting UB for sure, although if it just gives espionage points or something it wouldn't be very useful, considering there aren't many civs to interact with. The UU spy/merchant idea would at least give something new to do with spies.
     
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  19. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    More ideas for the Aztecs

    UHV2 Inheritors of Tollan or The Return of Quetzalcoatl: Achieve culture level X in Tenochtitlan by 1820.
    Apart from keeping the order of the universe and expanding their empire to support their elites through a tribute network, something else the Aztecs were very preoccupied with was their cultural prestige. When the Aztecs arrived at the valley of Mexico, all the existing cities saw them as poor, uncultured, migrants. In response, they invested a huge effort in legitimizing themselves as inheritors of Tollan. Tollan, while mostly used to refer to the toltec city of Tula Xicotitlan ("Tula"), can actually also refer to a lost city of high culture. The Aztecs adopted existing mesoamerican customs, the rulers claimed to be descendants of the rulers of Tula. The second name option refers to the same though, Quetzalcoatl was also considered to be a ruler of ancient Tula. It's a play on the (perhaps just erroneous) myth that the Aztecs considered Cortes to be Quetzalcoatl returning. The UHV calls on the player to be Quetzalcoatl returning by bringing their city to the greatness they aspired. Gamewise, this is a bit similar to current UHV2 - you would require the temples and wonders, but it also aligns with the UP giving culture from sacrifices in the city (and hence to a military playstyle). Previously I had suggested including a cultural output component to UHV1, if this UHV proposal is adopted, that would not be necessary to have there anymore.

    UB: Calmecac, replaces library, provides XP to units in addition the normal science / culture output of the building
    The Calmecac was the educational institution of the Aztec nobility and priesthood (hence my proposal to also consider it as a monastery replacement) - the Calmecac imparted education on literature, history, politics, religion, morality, and military training - as every citizen was expected to support the empire's conquests. With the military angle, the building combines well with the UP and playstyle wanted for the Aztecs.

    Since I would still wish to see teotl as a major religion (as mentioned earlier), in case the calmecac was used as the monastery building there, then I would use the Telpochcalli as UB. The Telpochcalli was in many ways similar to the Calmecac, except that it educated the commoners. The Aztecs actually had free, mandatory, public schooling already by 1500s and that would be nice to show as well.

    Other proposal:
    Change the levee requirements so that it can also be built by cities built on lagoons (like Tenochtitlan and Venice).
     
  20. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Ideas for the Maya
    Spawn: 400 BC, with automatic palace relocation to northern Yucatan in the 800-1000 AD period in case of instability (representing the Maya classic collapse).

    Some ideas for the UB (none very good though):
    - The Ball Court can be amended with a bonus to science if it should stay as a UB (ie, if it can't be used as a building for a teotl religion so it can become available to the Aztecs too). At the same time, I do think the current properties of the ball game are useful (especially with the new proposed UHV3 below).
    - As alternative, I'd propose the Chultun (a water reservoir) in substitution for the aqueduct. The Chultun was an underground storage space used for many purposes, among others to store water (collected there with canals), to store food, and some others (I think I once read also for burials?). I don't know for sure, though, how to differentiate it from the aqueduct and the bath - my initial idea was to have it store food and provide health benefits, but that's kind of the same as those buildings already do.
    - Also to mention: Sacbeobs are a mayan road type still standing throughout the Yucatan peninsula that facilitated trade and communication for the Maya. It's not associated to the highland regions though. Since it's transport infrastructure, I don't think it can really act as a UB, but I thought I'd mention it here anyway.

    About the UHVs, I think currently the Mayan UHV are focused only on astronomy. I propose some to reflect some of the broader aspects of Mayan history and achievements below.

    UHV1: The Book of the People: Have X monuments, temples, and libraries (and Chultuns or Jaguar temples, whichever we keep as UB) by 900 AD.
    The name refers to the Popol Vuh, one of the texts including the mythical histories of the Maya, which was orally transmitted for centuries before being put to paper by the Spanish in Guatemala (where most of the classical maya things happened). The classical maya period was notable due to urbanism, demographic growth and monumental constructions. I think that, similar to the Harappan UHVs, the Maya could have a challenge of building a number of buildings by a certain date - I proposed 900 AD as that's the time of the classic maya collapse. That could be 3 of each type of building, but perhaps would require changing more of the jungles in the area into rainforests or allowing other forms of increasing hammers in the region, perhaps with their UP. I don't think their gameplay should be linked to whipping their population, as they were not particularly known for that.

    UHV2: The League of Mayapan: Build a palace and the temple of Kukulcan in the Yucatan peninsula by 1200 AD
    Not necessarily in Chichen Itza, but anywhere there (it would be one of the four northernmost tiles of the Yucatan peninsula in the new map). This is meant to represent the continuation of Mayan culture after the classic maya collapse (which affected only the southern regions), including the continuation of a political and religious structure in the north. If the AI is playing, I suggest an automatic palace relocation as mentioned above accompanied by a partial collapse (the Southern cities becoming independent). This relocation could be accompanied by a change of name of Tikal into Najpeten (see below). In UHV1 I removed the (current) requirement of discovering the calendar by a certain date, but since the calendar is also very closely associated to the Temple of Kukulcan (with its 365 steps and astronomical alignment), and since the calendar is an early requirement for Aeshetics, that is kind of covered. Moreover, the 356-day calendar was invented by the Olmecs by 500 BC, far before the emergence of strong Maya states in modern Chiapas & Guatemala.

    UHV3: The Long Memory of the Maya: Found at least X cities in the Maya core area by 1520 and not lose any cities in the Maya core area to other civs until 1900.
    X cities would be 2 in the current map or 3 in the new map. The Spanish conquest of the Maya states was only completed in 1697 Nojpeten (aka Tayasal) was the last independent Maya state, it was conquered by the Spanish only in 1697. But the Maya people maintained a long (kind of guerrilla) war against the states of Mexico and Yucatan (which was independent for a couple of years), and also staged uprisings in Guatemala - the War of the Castes and the Totonicapan uprising, at the very least. These only ended in 1901, when Mexico finally took the Mayan autonomous capital at Chan Santa Cruz (near Chetumal, Quintana Roo). The Maya only recognized Mexico as a sovereign of the territory in 1933, so that could also be an end date. In any case, this UHV is meant to represent the military resistance of the Maya how the Maya people maintained effectively maintained their autonomy through centuries after what we assume was a complete colonization (their identity remains strong until today, though).

    I have the same comments about the current UHV3 "discover the Euros before they discover you" as with the Aztec UHV3 of "enslave X old world units" or the "control a European core" ideas - these UHVs don't feel true to these civs and their internal histories and developments. I wrote earlier my thoughts about how this was the case for the Aztecs. With the maya, this also leads to a very passive and luck-dependent game where all you can do is build a galley, place it near Europe, and then wait and hope you're in the way of the european explorers. However, there's a history of political resistance and cultural pride and continuation that lives to today. Current political land reform and indigenous rights movements by the Maya, in Mexico and Central America, are also linked to this history of resistance. That's admirable enough that can be represented here as a UHV, especially UHV3 which is so often about the civilizations final aspirations :)

    Edit: considering that the League of Mayapan was built on a lot of political negotiations and agreements (and how these were such an integral part of Classical Maya history), it could include some statemaship /diplomacy component - like have a great statesman, or a courthouse, or so many espionage points (useful with the Aztecs there)
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020

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