Civilisation Attributes open discussion

[Leoreth]

I am not your master. I am just telling your what the parameters of a productive conversation are.

 

[TJDowling]

Yes, I understand.

 

[TJDowling]

That's fair, but the RCMP are only kind of police. They are a paramilitary organization that we use as our local police in much of Canada (Yes, I know police is in the name, but they're a hybrid). Historically, they were our border guard, customs agents, anti-espionage, and military in the western half of the country, in addition to police. It's true that your average local detachment of the RCMP is less armed than many American police departments, but the RCMP as a whole does have military equipment that they use for larger operations.

All that said, I can still see the argument to not including them as a military unit. It would really only make sense for RCMP/NWMP to be a military unit if some of the Indigenous civs that they fought were added. It could work to make them a spy unit with extra domestic actions, since their function past and present has centred on enforcing Canadian sovereignty internally (or in land claimed by Canada). But this could be well represented with a UB too, as it already is.

Is the effect of the UB still happiness from horses? I think that effect is a bit odd. Tying it to horses is thematic, but I don't think it works well for gameplay or historicity. Yes, they are "mounted" police, but I don't think happiness from horses reflects their function well. It should be something with a larger impact on improved stability, or perhaps greater border integrity. Maybe something like fixed borders in RoM-AND? Could be useful if American culture expansions is an issue for the UHV.

Another possibility is a building that prevents or reduces the chance of a city breaking away due to collapsing stability. I think there would have to be a cap on how many you can build to keep it balanced, but it could work if the Canadian core were reduced to just southern Ontario and (maybe) Quebec. It would make the UHV a balancing act between fast expansion and managing stability and reflect the effort of central Canada to keep the rest of Canada together and out of American hands.

Very thoughtful contributions which would make the UB Royal Mounted Police a more useful and historically representative UB. I'm inclined to agree with previous posts that Grand Railway Hotel might take away from the Chateau Frontenac wonder, so if we can fix the RCMP UB then that would probably be ideal. The role of the Mounted Police may well still be better represented by a UB than UU, though I still think the name needs work. We call the other building a constabulary not a constable, so why call it a Royal Mounted Police...? I like the stability idea, I initially thought about the RCMP as a settler could provide extra stability in the new settlement but it seemed too out there and could just be covered by Canada's stability parameters, but as a building it seems more reasonable because it is something you have to choose to build, whereas settling is mandatory.

Still leaves a better UU than a Corvette though, any further ideas? And lets try not to dismiss ideas out of hand.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

No. One UB, 1+ UU for each civilisation.

That's... an odd line to draw in the sand, unless it's technically unfeasible. Canada is already pretty severely incentivized against using their UU as it is, there's very little practical difference between what they have now and just not having one.

If it's beyond discussion, though, I'll go back to hoping for a civilian UU which might at least have SOME function.

 

[DC123456789]

The coureurs de bois or voyageurs as explorer replacement would probably be my preferred choice, if it wasn't pretty much completely unviable given that it's the wrong timeframe for the civ.

 

[merijn_v1]

In my 2nd UU modcomp, I used the Avro Arrow as the 2nd Canadian UU. I made it cheaper and gave it a bit more range.

Pros:
- Properly Canadian
- Art available
- The aren't many air UU, while there are many naval UU. (Although there are no lategame naval UU except the Corvette) It will make the UU roster a bit more diverse.

Cons:
- Also not really relevant for most Canadian games
- Only 5 built IRL. I don't think it has a huge historical significance. Although it can be used to represent more than just the plane:

Avro Canada was a Canadian aircraft manufacturing company. It started in 1945 as an aircraft plant and within thirteen years became the third-largest company in Canada, one of the largest 100 companies in the world, and directly employing over 50,000.

 

[TJDowling]

The coureurs de bois or voyageurs as explorer replacement would probably be my preferred choice, if it wasn't pretty much completely unviable given that it's the wrong timeframe for the civ.

Polling my fellow Canadian historians amateur and otherwise Mounties (Quote: "RCMP built Canada, it's how we stole the West") and Coureur de bois came up. Among others:

Loyalists
Avro Arrow (probably not because it never really saw the light of day)
Ice-Breaker (can move through sea ice)

But no one seems to think Corvettes are uniquely Canadian or really worthy of mention.

 

[DC123456789]

In my 2nd UU modcomp, I used the Avro Arrow as the 2nd Canadian UU. I made it cheaper and gave it a bit more range.

Pros:
- Properly Canadian
- Art available
- The aren't many air UU, while there are many naval UU. (Although there are no lategame naval UU except the Corvette) It will make the UU roster a bit more diverse.

Cons:
- Also not really relevant for most Canadian games
- Only 5 built IRL. I don't think it has a huge historical significance. Although it can be used to represent more than just the plane:

It does have significant historical significance and is fairly well known, but for all the wrong reasons (i.e. being cancelled). Although quite frankly it's still better than the corvette.

 

[TJDowling]

UB CANDU reactor replaces Nuclear Power Plant.... never melts down.

Off Topic:
World Wonder: CANADARM... +1 production for all satellites

"Kids in the Hall" or even all five troupe members and the cast of SCTV as a Great Artists for Canada? Great Artist John Candy.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Mounted_Police

Not just a police force.

 

[Steb]

Mexican Rurales are more police- than military-like, though. And the RCMP's predecessor, the North-West Mounted Police, was definitely at least paramilitary. It sounds to me like the idea could be worked into a settler or worker that can defend. (EDIT: crosspost/edit with TJDowling)

In my 2nd UU modcomp, I used the Avro Arrow as the 2nd Canadian UU. I made it cheaper and gave it a bit more range.

Huh, I'd never actually heard of it. It's quite cool (and I agree with everyone that it's better than the Corvette), but yeah a cancelled project is probably not the best UU idea.

From the relevant Quora question "How is the Canadian military unique?", I got another idea: the Canadian Rangers. They're a reservist organization, mostly made up of indigenous people, who patrol the less inhabited parts of the country. They have existed since 1947. Not sure what unit they would replace or what their extra ability could be. Extra movement/strength on tundra or ice?

 

[Leoreth]

Rurales are a fair point. In that case I am also interested in alternative Mexican UU ideas.

 

[Steb]

Going in a totally different direction for the Canadian UU: UN Peacekeeper? This force was an idea from future Canadian PM Lester Pearson, and with their blue helmets they would be iconic.

However, beyond being Canadian-invented, they are not controlled by the Canadian (or any) government, include very few Canadians in their ranks, and I have no idea what abilities they could have. To be truly interesting they'd need some sort of new peacekeeping mechanic, I think.

 

[trevor]

Rurales are a fair point. In that case I am also interested in alternative Mexican UU ideas.

Rurales were frequently nationalized & folded into the Mexican Army several times in their existence plus the officer corps were seconded from the Army. I think it's got a better argument for keeping it than would the RCMP.

How about a spy with a less-powerful Great Statesman effect (renamed Diplomat or Chargé d'affaires)?

 

[TJDowling]

Literally every Canadian outside this forum I've polled familiar with the Civilization series says Mounted Police first (as a civilian unit) though most admit it is kind of a vanilla idea (like something out of Civ VI). Somehow though, the collective opinion of people who have lived and studied Canadian history is a non-starter. Look I'm not suggesting a hockey rink for UB.... Further ideas:

Peace-keeper or APCs (again, very late-game and not directly relating to Canada's core gameplay)
Metis Settler (I think that could be pretty good)
Mac Paps (of the Spanish Civil War, less late game but again not related to Canada's core gameplay)
Missile Shield... not a unit
Someone said "Angry 1830s Liberals" not sure what that meant but I guess we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here but somehow it's still better than Corvette.

How about a spy with a less-powerful Great Statesman effect (renamed Diplomat or Chargé d'affaires)?

I like this idea, but I think in the past there has been resistance to adding a unique Spy.

I got another idea: the Canadian Rangers. They're a reservist organization, mostly made up of indigenous people, who patrol the less inhabited parts of the country. They have existed since 1947. Not sure what unit they would replace or what their extra ability could be. Extra movement/strength on tundra or ice?

Neat idea, could help with the settle 90% UHV. Would likely serve the same purpose as Mounted Police but may fulfill the bizarre requirement of not being the police.

 

[Leoreth]

It's not a bizarre requirement to have military units in the military, so shut it.

 

[TJDowling]

It's not a bizarre requirement to have military units in the military, so shut it.

Mounted Police as a civilian unit.

 

[Leoreth]

Civilian units cannot fight in this game.

 

[TJDowling]

Civilian units cannot fight in this game.

Except for the Pioneer... but whatever we don't need to give it fighting functions. Most of my suggestions for actual functions in my original post were civilian functions but you still dismissed it off-hand. I honestly don't think Canada has much use for a fighting or military unit.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

Civilian units cannot fight in this game.

RCMP aside, would you be open to more suggestions for a civilian UU for Canada?

 

[rmontaruli]

I had an idea: give RCPM exploration capabilities (cannot attack, only defend), but an effect to make population happy, as military units do under monarchy civic.