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Civilisation Attributes open discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    No, my point is that there is no unit in the game that it could feasibly replace.
     
  2. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Settler, Explorer, Spy, Worker depending on the end-function... totally unfeasible?
     
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  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Are police settlers? No. Are police explorers? No. Are police spies? No. Are police workers? No.

    Thank you, next.
     
  4. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Are the police military? No, but the Northwest Mounted Police were a para-military force and part of the military response to the North-West Rebellion. They were deployed to the Alberta border to fend off the possibility of an American military intervention after the cypress hill massacre.

    Are police settlers? No, but the Mounted Police facilitated the settlement of the West at every point.

    Are police explorers? No, but in many cases like the March West https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_West they trekked across hundreds of miles of largely unsettled and unknown territory in defense of Canadian interests in the West.

    Are police spies? In the case of the RCMP up until the 1980s? Absolutely.

    Are police workers? No, but Mounties assisted in the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway.

    You've rejected or ignored absolutely any evidence to suggest that the role the Mounted Police played matched any of the units suggested, likely because they had a very unclear role and performed many different functions. Perhaps that is precisely what makes them special and worthy of inclusion, that they were kind of the colonial catch-all jack-of-all-trades master-of-none of Canada's settler colonial government.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Mounted_Police
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
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  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Do we want RCMP founding cities? No. Do we want RCMP to build cottages? No. Do we want RCMP to go to foreign cities and poison the water supply? No.

    Do I want to spell out all of these obvious problems to you. No.

    Next.
     
  6. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    No, I got that - no RCMP. I meant would you be open to suggestions that are not the RCMP, but are for civilian units. I don't have any ideas yet, but I want to know if it's worth looking into whether there would anything that would make a good settler or worker or other replacement for Canada. If not, I'll stick to thinking of military unit ideas.
     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Sorry for not being clear, I think I intended to reply to your quote more directly. I meant to say civilian unit suggestions are fine, or even more appropriate considering Canada's history of not being significantly involved in major conflicts (and the UHV). What I am against is coming up with an idea first and forcing it onto an existing civilian unit that has nothing to do with the idea in an insane attempt to rules-lawyer me into accepting it.
     
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  8. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    You might have to...

    I understand shoe-horning a UU into a unit isn't the ideal way to accomplish it but doesn't mean it is always a bad idea. You were determined to think Mounted Police was a bad idea from the get-go so I'm inclined to think it has little to do with the shoe-horning.

    From the perspective of an actual Canadian who has lived and studied Canadian history his entire life, I still think Mounted Police as a light cavalry unit is historically sound, reasonable and significant. Perhaps route-building was a bad idea but I don't think the unit itself is a problem. The fact that Northwest Mounted Police didn't have a clear purpose or role, military/civilian reflects less on level of importance and more on Sir John A MacDonald's government operating in a region where Canada had limited man-power and resources. I'll be as clear as possible, the Mounted Police as a paramilitary force were crucial to MacDonald's rail-building and nation-building mission and defense of Canadian interests against rebellion and American incursion. And further symbolically represent that mission perfectly the mission that is core to Canada's UHVs in this mod. And as this is your mod you reserve the right to refuse entirely and you probably can't make it any clearer that you won't make the Mounted Police Canada's UU as a military unit or a civilian unit... but as an actual Canadian student of history I reserve the right to be obnoxious about it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
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  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Bad faith arguments and strawmen won't help you win this argument. Honestly I am really tired of your tone in this discussion. The topic is officially over.
     
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  10. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    Some few suggestions for Mali:

    • Probably Leoreth is already considering this, but for the sake of making a official suggestion, I'd like to point to the discussion in the new African civs thread and specifically to the suggestions and comments made by oioi23 and Caesar Augustus about how a Malian king, Abu Bakr II, abdicated his throne in order to attempt to cross the Atlantic. As remarked there by Steb, it would make a very interesting and unique UHV to Mali, so here goes my suggestion: merge UHV3 (that requires getting large amounts of gold) with UHV1 (conducting a trade mission to your holy city), leading to a UHV that requires both the trade mission (in 1350) with the amount of gold amassed in 1500 (we can remove the objective for 1700). I think we can safely merge these UHVs because, at least how I see it, they are kind of related, since much about the information over the impressive wealthy of Malinese Empire comes with the how much Mansa Musa spent doing his pilgrimage to Mecca. The new UHV could be: Abu Bakr's ambitions: be the first Old World civilization to discover the Americas (I have some doubts here about how feasible this UHV could be considering the European faster research rates, but anyway seems a good challenge) or establish an American colony by 1700 (an alternative option if Mali can't research Cartography and build caravels fast enough).
    • Another suggestion is to add the currently only barbarian Farari cavalry as the second Malian UU. Although I understand that currently these barbarian units are a flavorful way to represent the Songhai (and personally I like the idea), the Farari were actually the elite corps of the Mali Empire, as stated both in the wiki and the ingame civilopedia. Considering that the Malinese military structure was culturally related and influenced all the other West African peoples in the region, I think that we still can have them being barbarian units that spawn in the area, but it would be nice (and historically accurate) to have them as an additional Malinese UU.
    • I know that the Mandinka are in practice a "umbrella" civ for all West African medieval polities and peoples in the mod and this suggestion may have been made before, but technically the Malinese capital was Niani, 1S from the current spawn in Djenné. I'm not making a hard argument here to change in the current map considering the historical role of Djenné for the region, but it is something to think when we move to the larger map. Additionally, I'd like to suggest the spawn of an Independent Gao (2S from the Cooper/1N from the northernmost Ivory to be outside of the Malinese flipzone) shortly before the Malinese spawn. The idea here is to make the area feel more inhabited, representing both the legacy of former kingdoms and also the Malinese regional rivals.
    • Finally, although I'm unsure if this is the ideal place to make this suggestion, I'd like to propose the inclusion of the Djenné Mosque as a Great Wonder. The art for the wonder is available in few mods, like Rise of Mankind and Caveman2Cosmos. I know that Mali already has a "personal" wonder (the University of Sankore), but I think that the mosque could be a very interesting addition to the other very few African wonders present in game, also representing the unique Sudano-Sahelian architecture that could be useful for possible future new civilizations in the area when the new map is implemented. Thus, my initial idea for the wonder is: The Great Mosque of Djenné (alternatively the Great Mudbrick Mosque); available with Theology, requires both Islam and a floodplain tile to build, 360 :hammers: with double production from Ivory (technically incorrect but could help to increase the changes of being built in Africa), have a yield of +6:culture:, two priest slots and +2 Great Phrophet :gp: with a special effect of doubling the :gold: yields for trade routes in inland cities; becomes obsolete with Urban Planning.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Yeah, I wanna give Mali some more attention at some point. Most of these only become actionable with the new map because I don't want to redesign civs twice, and also because more space gives more options for accuracy.

    As for Djenné over Niani, I am aware of Niani being the capital of the Mali Empire, but with the space given it was either Timbuktu and Djenné or Timbuktu and Niani, and leaving out Djenné seems wrong. It's the much more important city at least the whole time after the Mali Empire. Not sure about the height of the empire itself, but even then it was an important center of trade.
     
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  12. Caesar Augustus

    Caesar Augustus Prince

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    I don't want to ruffle any feathers but just to be clear is "the topic" the RCMP or is it the Canadian UU more broadly?
     
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    No, I meant my specific discussion with TJDowling.

    I said previously that I am not particularly attached to the Canadian UU, and that a civilian UU (but not necessarily) would probably be better considering both Canada's history and their UHV. Any ideas are still explicitly encouraged. Part of the problem of that back and forth to me actually was the degree to which it took over the thread with unproductive attempts at gotchas, and left no space for other ideas for a Canadian UU, or any other civ for that matter.

    An idea I considered earlier for Canada by the way was the Voyageur as an Explorer UU, but its time period doesn't really work with the spawn date. Maybe one day I can move Canada to spawn earlier as a colonial vassal.
     
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  14. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    Small suggestion. What about renaming the Dutch UU from East Indiaman to Fluyt? The East Indiaman is a general name for a sailing ship operating under any India Company, not necessarily the Dutch East India Company. The Fluyt is a type of ship designed by the Dutch and many fluyts served as East Indiaman. Art and abilities can remain the same, only a new name.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  15. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    I will second that suggestion. I believe fluyt is the UU used in AND.

    I agree voyageur could be an interesting UU if the spawn date is moved earlier. Alternatively, would it be possible to make a diplomat or mediator unit that allows Canada to end wars between other civs? Maybe it would have to be present in one of their capitals (requires open borders) and requires a minimum diplo attitude with one or both of them. It would reflect Canada's attempts to be a "middle power" during the Cold War and would pair well with the UHV to end a certain number of wars. I can't think of a specific Canadian thing to name it after though.

    EDIT: To give credit where it's due, trevor actually suggested the diplomat idea a bi ago.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
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  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Same issue with there not being a unit to replace them with, but that might chance by the time this idea is put into practice. Do you have any non generic Canadian institution in mind?
     
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  17. Steb

    Steb King

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    Voyageurs would be a fine idea, but I don't think they will ever really work, unless Canada spawned really early (which I think is a bad idea). Besides, like the RCMP, they don't really match any existing unit. They were primarily merchants. The actual exploring of North America was done by the coureurs des bois, a similar but earlier group of people (17th-18th as opposed to 18th-19th c.). This would require Canada to spawn as soon as the first colony is founded... And in any case, there were also more official expeditions (e.g. D'Iberville), so replacing the explorer unit isn't such a great idea either.
     
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  18. trevor

    trevor Warlord

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    If you want to reintroduce a foreign policy aspect to the mod (which I dig) maybe the base unit could be "Diplomat" & the Canadian UU "Ambassador/Ambassadeur"? It's not great, in that these are basic words to describe a job versus a unique one to Canada (which I can't seem to find anywhere), but it's a fair way to differentiate the two.
     
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  19. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    Building on this idea, what if we had a diplomat or envoy unit that allowed expanded diplomatic options with the civ you use it in, and a Canadian variant that allows actions involving 3rd parties (such as ending wars)? That would be associated with the Canadian External Affairs ministry, which isn't really uniquely Canadian, but did position Canada as a brokering nation during the Cold War, particularly during the Suez Crisis. However, I don't know whether Canada really was unique in being a mediator or even how much of an impact our government actually had at the time. It's held up as significant within Canada, but I don't know if there is the same perception from others. This proposal also overlaps with the UN Peacekeeping force, but it avoids the awkwardness of having one civ control a UN force.
     
  20. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Would it be a good idea to introduce a new set of civilian units to the game, in parallel to the great people already present? So, in other words, to have a statesman, scientist, merchant, artist, etc units. They would have similar functions to the great people but obviously at much lower levels and also they would not be able to build the special buildings, but perhaps they could give them small boosts.
    There's already the spy/great spy and missionary/great prophet distinction, so perhaps the other ones could be hammered out. I understand that spies and missionaries are units you "send out" while scientists are units you want to settle, but at least statesmen (as diplomats) and merchants are units you would also want to send out. And there's the idea of adding great explorers (that would be parallel to the explorers).
    So some ideas (definitely not all of them great):
    - Statesmen could reduce corruption, improve diplomatic relations, reduce maintenance costs, reduce unrest.
    - Scientists could learn foreign technologies, boost scientific output in a city, increase % of small scientific breakthroughs, or on improvements increase the % of increasing yields.
    - Engineers could improve productivity/yield hammers in cities, speed up improvement construction (or even better, be required for creating modern improvements, instead of the game graphically changing them at era changes) - or they could simply take over most of the worker funcftions
    - Merchants could increase likelihood of AI willing to trade resources, provide gold while stationed in foreign cities, increase commerce yields?
    - Artists could increase local culture on cities, or on tiles (with towns? any tiles? I mean to claim territory), improve diplomatic relations while stationed in foreign cities, increase happiness

    Anyway, there is, of course, the issue of the citizen specialists in the cities, which are in some ways the same thing and would maybe need to be overhauled? I know there are plenty of interactions and mechanics and parts of the game I haven't considered, and that this requires further thought, but what would other people think?

    And this would also allow civs to have more options of civilian UU, as with Canada here (which is what gave me this idea).
     
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