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Civilisation Attributes open discussion

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. Cypriot

    Cypriot Chieftain

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    Well, I think it's a good goal, but maybe it's better to rename it? Although, I cannot think up better name.
    By the way, a player as Rome can prevent Byzantine spawn; as Khmer - Thai spawn. Maybe it's good idea to let a player to prevent Prussian spawn as HRE, and, after Sumerian introduction, Babylonian as it?
     
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  2. Hickman888

    Hickman888 Warlord

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    I'm not sure there's enough turns in between Sumeria spawning in and Babylon spawning in to let you affect your stability all that much. I think Civs are immune to stability changes for the first X turns after they spawn in. I think it's a good idea though.
     
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  3. ShinobiHus92

    ShinobiHus92 Chieftain

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    Spoiler There was however a Neo Sumerian Empire in the 2100s BC :
    neo-sumer.png


    Personally I rather have Summer and Babylon merge as 1 civ with dynamic name changes depending on the capital location. So Babylon for the Babylonians and Uruk, Ur and Lagash for the Sumerians etc. Adding 1 more Mesopotamia civ to represent the Akkadians and later the Assyrians making them more a warlike civ and you're good to go :)
     
  4. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    Considering the issues about adding a Sumerian civ, how about we add an Independent city representing them in the larger map? Could be Uruk (seems to me that was the most important city-state in all Summer) or Ur (less overlapping for Babylon) and we can even add a Vulture to garrison it in order to make them feel more unique. If not, I'm all on bord with ShinobiHus92 suggestion of Summer being a dynamic name of the Babylonians.

    I also really like the idea of an Akkadian/Assyrian civ; in fact, I consider them a must have addition. They can start in Nineveh in 3000 BCE (I know that Akkad or Assur would be more historically accurate, but then again it may overlap too much with Babylon) and have as starting leader Sargon.

    Other few ideas to toss here about the Fertile Crescent is the addition of the Hitites as playable civ and perhaps improving the starting situation of Egypt by giving them an additional settler: after all, by the game start we already have an unified Egyptian Kingdom that would have both the lower and upper areas settled.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
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  5. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    Going back to the discussion about the current civilizations attributes in game, I will toss some ideas about Colombia.

    UB:
    While I do feel that the Hacienda can be a reasonably good UB for Colombia (since represent quite clearly the social legacies of colonial period, much like in many other Latin American countries), I must stress that it is not that uniquely Colombian, since the Haciendas were common more or less in all Spanish colonies that focused agricultural exploitation of cash crops. I got thinking about something better to represent but didn’t come with anything good; this remark here is more a suggestion for further consideration.

    UHVs:
    Currently, both the UHV 1 and 2 are somewhat similar (no Europeans in Northern South America by 1870 and control the continent by 1920), representing Simon Bolívar plans for a united and independent Spanish American union. Thus, my first proposal here is to merge these UHVs with some minor historical adjustments: The Bolívar Doctrine: control (directly or by vassalage) Mexico, Central America, Cuba, Gran Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Chile and Argentina by 1890. In territorial terms, I excluded deliberatly the Guianas, large parts of Caribbean (Bolívar, as far as I know, didn't have plans to conquer British, French and Dutch colonies) and Brazil (a Portuguese-speaking country that was excluded from the proposed union; besides, Bolívar saw the Brazilian Empire actually as a possible threat because it was ruled by an European royal house) and included Mexico and Central America, both which not only were considered part of Bolívar plans of union but actually participated in the meeting to discuss its formation. I included the possibility of vassals here both to allow this UHV be more feasible to the player and also because Bolívar proposed using a confederation to ensure the political union of the vast former Spanish colonial empire, even though he opposed a US-like federalist government in Gran Colombia. The deadline for the UHV is the first Pan-American Conference; I know that the Pan-American conferences were mainly US-sponsored, but the Pan-Americanism among the Latin Americans often invoked inspiration in Bolívar ideals.

    This leaves us to discuss the others UHVs. I’m also personally not a fan of UHV3 (Acquire 3000 Gold by selling resources by 1950) but reviewing Colombian history I couldn’t come with really good ideas: Colombia often experienced civil wars during her history, and thus didn’t had much stability to do much else. Some ideas to toss here are: 1) represent Colombian cultural legacy and worldwide known artists, like Nobel laureate Gabriel Garcia Márquez, the painter/sculptor Fernando Botero and the nowadays popular singers/actors/actresses, which would require the generation of X Great Artists by 1990; 2) something involving Bogotá, which is one of the largest cities in the Americas and the economic powerhouse of Colombia; apparently, the first airport in all Latin America was built there; 3) an UHV to represent Colombian illegal drug trade and drug lords (it is kind of stereotyped and I don’t know how we could do it, though); 4) represent the historically close diplomatic and military ties that Colombia has with the US since 1940-1950s: Colombian units fought in Korean War, the country is a major actor in US war on drugs (Plan Colombia) and it is the only Latin American NATO global partner.

    Edit: I just thought about a reasonable cultural UHV: Magical Realism: Generate 50.000 culture (equivalent to a Legendary cultured city) with Artist and Great Artists by 1990.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  6. rmontaruli

    rmontaruli Prince

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    And i suggest some changes in tech tree, introducing cuneiform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform and alphabet as prerequisite before writing.
    Alphabet belongs to Phoenicians and can be related to early navigation (like in a previous version of CIV).
    Cuneiform is obviously related to Sumeria...

    And while i'm writing these ideas, i'm also thinking of a thing like UNIQUE TECH, for very ancient civs, that can unlock other things...
    For example: cuneiform allow cottages without Property, hieroglyphs allow Sphinx without ist tech...

    And please, let's add Hamurrabi's Code of Laws in any way!
     
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  7. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    I don't know if it's been mentioned already but if it has I'd like to second it. I'm not a big fan of Canada's UU and UB.

    As for the UU "Corvette" replacing the destroyer, there are a few things that bother me about it. First of all, I'll admit to not being the biggest WWII history buff but when I first saw Canada's UU was "corvette" I had to google it. Even as a Canadian, I had no idea that this class of destroyer was particularly important in Canadian history and to be honest I'm still not convinced. There are a lot of things that are well-known about Canada's role in WWII but that was new to me. Further, from a gameplay standpoint, I don't really see how it improves Canada's game especially since it is a very late-game unit. It doesn't contribute strategically to any of Canada's UHVs and really only could be used in an overseas campaign that would just distract resources from accomplishing the other UHVs. Also, it's not a particularly useful unit from the standpoint that Canada has very few productive coastal settlements. Unless one of the attributes was reduced cost, I don't see how it could really make a difference even in an overseas campaign.

    For replacement, I haven't thought too much yet but perhaps it could be replaced by Mounted Police UU replacing Dragoon (biology, which they will be able to access from the beginning) or Cavalry (Microbiology, which they will be able to access shortly after spawn). The Mounties played a critical role in the settlement of the West and subjugation of the First Nations. That said, their perk would have to be non-military or at least defensive in nature as Canada's UHV requires that it settle without conquering any cities. Two thoughts to this regard: maybe the Mounties could be like the Roman Legion in that they have the ability to both defend/attack and build routes (rails in this case) representing their role in expanding Canada's dominion to the Pacific. That would assist in the rail UHV freeing up some workers to develop other infrastructure. Alternatively, they could be something like the Pioneer unit, able to build a settlement, but perhaps a different benefit upon settlement. Maybe it could be extra free buildings upon settlement.

    So that takes us to the UB. Of course currently the UB is Mounted Police... which isn't technically a building. And of course we wouldn't want the UU and UB to both be mounted police. So if my above suggestion is taken into account then we'd have to change the UB. Other reasons to change the UB... again, Mounted Police are not a building, so it's at the very least not a great name for the UB. Additionally, the perk is iirc, "+2 happiness with horses". Canada has one source of horses so assuming limited resources apply, this can only benefit 3 settlements without acquiring more through trade. Not a great benefit.

    What to replace it with? Well off the top of my head we have the Chateau Frontenac as a wonder in the game. What is the Chateau Frontenac? The Chateau Frontenac is the most beautiful and ornate of a series of Chateauesque Grand Railway Hotels built along the Canadian National/Pacific Railway by the rail companies to serve passengers of the expanding rail network. They are built in an architectural style considered to be unique to Canada. Other notable ones are Montreal's Windsor Hotel, Ottawa's Chateau Laurier, Winnipeg's Royal Alexandra Hotel, Calgary's Palliser Hotel and the Hotel Vancouver. The Grand Railway Hotel could replace the Railway Station (Railway) or even better I think Hotel (but available at Refining). It could boost culture and commerce. Maybe it would require a train station to build which would incentivise building the Chateau Frontenac to get train stations in every settlement.

    Just thoughts, any others?
     
  8. rmontaruli

    rmontaruli Prince

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    I don't know if in English language the name is the same, but in Italian there are a building and a unit that are called "Canadian".




     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Police is not a military unit. Police will not fight to defend your borders and cities, and certainly will not conduct your offensive wars, unless it is to oppress First Nation citizens of course. The police department of a mid sized American city has better equipment to be deployed to a warzone than RCMP, but not sure if that should be our standard.

    "Police is not a building" yes it is? It's called a police station? What do you think Constabulary means.
     
  10. Steb

    Steb King

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    I think there's a very valid point that a Mounties UU would be much more flavorful than both the Corvette and the RCMP UB. I, also, don't really know what corvettes are and why they're supposed to be significant to Canada. The RCMP UB is fine, but it's just one of these random buildings you can build, and it doesn't even have an interesting effect.

    So, patrolling the northwest territories with Mounties would be quite iconic. It also goes beyond what we usually think of as "police," since their activities involve exploring and settling uncontrolled territory, not just keeping the law and order in cities. I agree that they should not be military units. But not all units are military. Is it possible to change the unit category for a UU? They could be made a reconnaissance unit, for instance. Or their abilities could be adjusted, like being unable to attack, etc.
    This would be a good idea, but it somewhat removes the significance of having Château Frontenac as a wonder.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
  11. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    The corvette, at least in the form that is present in the mod (it is a little confusing, but there is distinct kinds of corvettes, designed for different purposes, that also existed during the age of sail and the current contemporaneous navies) is a small warship designed for antisubmarine escort for the convoys in the Battle of the Atlantic. I guess that this specific warship was chosen as UU because Canadian shipyards mass produced the Flower-class corvettes during WW2. I agree that it may not be the ideal UU for Canada, considering both the already mentioned gameplay aspects but also the historical background: these corvettes were actually designed and developed by the Royal Navy for convoy requirements; they were only mass produced in Canada because British yards couldn't meet the demand of new warships required for the war effort.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
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  12. Malchar

    Malchar Prince

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    Maybe the Canadian UU could be some kind of hybrid between a worker and a recon unit. It could build improvements and it also has a strength value so it doesn't automatically die to natives. Since it wouldn't be a military unit, maybe it would be an appropriate representation of the mounted police.
     
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  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I am not going to make police a unit.
     
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  14. Caesar Augustus

    Caesar Augustus Prince

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    I think the Canadian UB is great tbh. You want espionage to spread culture to St. John's, and you don't have tons of extra happiness resources sitting around. It's very much a two birds, one stone situation. I agree that the UU is almost entirely useless. If we were just saying what would work for Canada's gameplay, I'd agree with an upgraded laborer or settler, but I'm not sure what it would be, historically. Honestly I'd prefer they just not have a UU and instead have two UBs. Would be fitting for their niche as the peacemaking civ, no?
     
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  15. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    The RCMP Constabulary is fine as a UB, although I'll add my voice saying that I have no idea what the relevance of corvettes to Canada is at all. 2 UBs sounds pretty good since no one can come up with an even remotely relevant UU.
     
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  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    No. One UB, 1+ UU for each civilisation.
     
  17. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Except there is literally a UU called "gendarme"... not to mention the Rurales...

    Edit: And sure police are not a military unit. And neither is a City Builder, a Medeireiro, a Pioneer and having at times filled the role of military police when Canada did not have a formal military police branch they are not much less a military unit than a Gendarme (a military unit with civilian policing purposes) or any of the number of units that represent Imperial Guards.

    Even if it isn't ideal, it's still a better suggestion than Corvette... if Mounties are off the table, let's get some better ideas. As I said, these are just ideas, and it's up for discussion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
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  18. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    So, a few thoughts on the Canada discussion:

    I don't think instant familiarity is necessary for a UU or UB. I didn't know what the majority of the other civs UU and UBs are and I'm a history nerd. Part of the fun of mods like this is that they introduce you to parts of history that you might not have heard of before. So I do not think the lack of familiarity with corvettes is a good argument against them. However, I do agree that their usefulness to a Canada game is limited and that may warrant a replacement.

    That's fair, but the RCMP are only kind of police. They are a paramilitary organization that we use as our local police in much of Canada (Yes, I know police is in the name, but they're a hybrid). Historically, they were our border guard, customs agents, anti-espionage, and military in the western half of the country, in addition to police. It's true that your average local detachment of the RCMP is less armed than many American police departments, but the RCMP as a whole does have military equipment that they use for larger operations.

    All that said, I can still see the argument to not including them as a military unit. It would really only make sense for RCMP/NWMP to be a military unit if some of the Indigenous civs that they fought were added. It could work to make them a spy unit with extra domestic actions, since their function past and present has centred on enforcing Canadian sovereignty internally (or in land claimed by Canada). But this could be well represented with a UB too, as it already is.

    Is the effect of the UB still happiness from horses? I think that effect is a bit odd. Tying it to horses is thematic, but I don't think it works well for gameplay or historicity. Yes, they are "mounted" police, but I don't think happiness from horses reflects their function well. It should be something with a larger impact on improved stability, or perhaps greater border integrity. Maybe something like fixed borders in RoM-AND? Could be useful if American culture expansions is an issue for the UHV.

    Another possibility is a building that prevents or reduces the chance of a city breaking away due to collapsing stability. I think there would have to be a cap on how many you can build to keep it balanced, but it could work if the Canadian core were reduced to just southern Ontario and (maybe) Quebec. It would make the UHV a balancing act between fast expansion and managing stability and reflect the effort of central Canada to keep the rest of Canada together and out of American hands.

    Those suggestions might be a bit out there, but I'm aiming for something to make the Canada game more interesting. I'll have to think more on what a good UU would be.
     
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  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Before writing attempts at gotcha posts like that, maybe first know what you are talking about.

    A suggestion that I have excluded as a possibility is not a better suggestion than the status quo because it is not constructive. I am all for further ideas which is why I said there will not be a Mountie unit in the first place.
     
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  20. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Yes master!
     
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