Civilisation Attributes open discussion

[Steb]

Both American UUs, the Minuteman and the Pioneer, are mostly relevant in the early US game. This is fine, but the US became a world power only around 1900, and a superpower after WWII, and I feel like one of its UUs should reflect this. I really like the Pioneer, but the Minuteman isn't so interesting (and quickly gets obsolete). How about a global era replacement?

 

[Leoreth]

The idea is that the situation is most precarious for the US in its early years. Later in the game it can coast off the strength of its economic power alone.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

All UHV goals to have an end date?
I might be on my own on this one, but I would rather just be told I failed a goal, then spend hundreds of turns chasing after it. For example my Arab game lasted into the mid twentieth century as I continued to attempt to spread Islam to the desired percentage of the world!

 

[Logoncal]

Suggest a better name then.

I'd say First and Second Reign

 

[Caesar Augustus]

I really don't like Indonesia's UP. it's very boring, the player can do almost nothing to influence it, and doesn't affect how the player, well, plays the game. Maybe give them a power related to religion spread after the renaissance since as of right now, Islam doesn't really spread to the area like it should in my experience. Maybe something like reduced unhappiness from religions and a religion spreading in your core spreads it to all core cities, or can switch religions without anarchy.

I definitely think that something that CONNECTS trade and religion is both appropriate and interesting for Indonesia. Maybe something like "Trade Routes spread religion to/from Indonesian cities (perhaps even allowing spread beyond a religion's normal areas)" and then a UB that gives extra trade routes for each religion in a city? If that building would be too powerful, the trade route could be for each religion beyond the first. This would give you both a way to get a new religion into the civ, AND a big benefit for successfully spreading that religion once it arrives.

 

[Steb]

The idea is that the situation is most precarious for the US in its early years. Later in the game it can coast off the strength of its economic power alone.

Sure, but you could say this of most civilizations, and most have UUs representing their heyday. Also, there's rarely a real independence war (maybe that will change with new Rise and Fall mechanics), so Minutemen are barely even used in the historically appropriate context. I have no strong feelings either way, but I wonder what American players think.

 

[triplebassist]

I'd like to mention Egypt's UHV3. I agree that it's almost a given if UHV1 is met, but I actually don't think that's a bad thing, because the struggle at that point is survival. Having to fight off two sets of conquerors in a shirt period of time is a big challenge in itself, and I like that the UHV3 is more about that (without being explicitly a "survive" goal) than attempting to expand or accomplish much else during the onslaught.

 

[Leoreth]

Sure, but you could say this of most civilizations, and most have UUs representing their heyday. Also, there's rarely a real independence war (maybe that will change with new Rise and Fall mechanics), so Minutemen are barely even used in the historically appropriate context. I have no strong feelings either way, but I wonder what American players think.

Sure. As always a strong argument in favour of something is more compelling than a strong argument against something.

 

[trevor]

Sure, but you could say this of most civilizations, and most have UUs representing their heyday. Also, there's rarely a real independence war (maybe that will change with new Rise and Fall mechanics), so Minutemen are barely even used in the historically appropriate context. I have no strong feelings either way, but I wonder what American players think.

I'm fine with the current UUs as, for me, it's a touch of a struggle to come up with a better 'heyday' unit. Is it something from WW2? I wouldn't say that American troops or vehicles were unique in the way that the Zero or Panzers are representative of Germany & Japan's relative advantages. If it's something representing the post-war pax Americana (like a carrier with an extra slot/movement point or a longer-distance bomber) then are they really that useful with coming so late in the tech tree?

 

[Cacaso]

some UHV available on number of resources such as the second from Holland (7 spices) and the third from Indonesia (10 resource happiness), will have to be rebalanced, just in the islands of Indonesia I counted 6 spices so it would be very easy to complete with Holland.

 

[DanLT3]

The Indonesia UHV is 10 different happiness resources. A very hard one but double. Don't see why that needs to be changed.

 

[Leoreth]

some UHV available on number of resources such as the second from Holland (7 spices) and the third from Indonesia (10 resource happiness), will have to be rebalanced, just in the islands of Indonesia I counted 6 spices so it would be very easy to complete with Holland.

Are you talking about the new map?

 

[Alexius08]

Can the deadline for England's first UHV goal be moved to the 1860s, just before the Canadian spawn? The current 1730 deadline is a holdover from the original UHVs, when America used to spawn around that year. Juggling both it and the third UHV goal of being first to eight techs in both the Renaissance and Industrial eras would be more manageable with the adjusted deadline, not to mention promoting the pursuit of more historically-accurate strategies, like holding off some of the expansion for the first UHV until a part of the third UHV has been secured (instead of aggressively expanding right away).

 

[Cacaso]

Are you talking about the new map?

Yes, the new map

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, the new map

I expect that many UHVs have to be adjusted to that. This thread isn't about that map though.

 

[Cacaso]

The Indonesia UHV is 10 different happiness resources. A very hard one but double. Don't see why that needs to be changed.

In the Core + historical area of indonesia there are the happiness resources: gold, gems, ivory, dye, spices, tea, pearls, silk and incense (9 different resources, only one is missing on the new map).
Perhaps we could have something like UHV "The most diverse market" requiring the civ to have access to X resources (any type) to represent the diversity of products that were produced on those islands. (I suggest 20 or more, as they already have 18 different resources)

 

[Cacaso]

I expect that many UHVs have to be adjusted to that. This thread isn't about that map though.

oh, ok, I'm sorry.

 

[DanLT3]

In the Core + historical area of indonesia there are the happiness resources: gold, gems, ivory, dye, spices, tea, pearls, silk and incense (9 different resources, only one is missing on the new map).
Perhaps we could have something like UHV "The most diverse market" requiring the civ to have access to X resources (any type) to represent the diversity of products that were produced on those islands. (I suggest 20 or more, as they already have 18 different resources)

I was not not talking about the new map.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I think the HRE's first UHV should be changed to controlling the holy cities for Orthodoxy and Catholicism and the holy shrine for Protestantism, rather than all 3 holy shrines.

Requiring the holy shrine for Protestantism makes it more challenging as it requires you to embrace the reformation or snag a Great Prophet, but it's a reasonable challenge. However, requiring the player control the holy shrines for Orthodoxy and Catholicism instead of the holy cities seems like a bit of a pointless limitation. It doesn't change much of anything in the 600AD start as the cities all contain the shrines already, and it makes it so that victory from the 3000BC start requires incredible luck or playing from a previous civilization as the AI is not very good about building shrines and there is not enough time to generate Great Prophets and build them yourself.

 

[Dominus the Mentat]

Seeing the difficulty of completing the Indonesian UHV, I would like to purpose a change in the first and second UHV goals.

Prosperous Excellence: Have x gold from foreign trade, by UP or piracy until 1000 (or 1100 or 1200. I'm suggesting those because they indicate the centuries that the Kingdom of Srivijaya was in ascencion and dominated the trade in the Strait of Mallaca.)

Also I have other suggestions for this:

• Have x gold from trade with China or by UP with chinese ships (or ships of other civilizations, if it becomes too difficult with only the chinese) until the same years suggested before.

• Have trade routes with Arabian and Chinese cities in Palembang by (any of years suggested). (This one I don't know if is possible to implement)

Emerald of The Equator: Have influential culture in a javanese capital (or just a javanese city, to indicate the Majapahit influencial culture in the indonesian arquipelago) and control more spice resources than any other nation by 1400 (Year of the foundation of the Sultanate of Mallaca, trade rival of the Majapahit Empire)

Other suggestions if the cultural goal is too hard:

• Have more ships than any other nation by 1400.
• Have a javanese city be the most populous in the world by 1300.

The inspiration come from those: Kingdom of Majapahit - An Empire of Water - Majapahit - Srivijaya

Indonesia is the most economically powerful southeast asian nation, also have a considerable army in comparison to its neighbors and have the largest population in the region. Perhaps a goal that envolves one of these three aspects or all of them is a good start, like: be the most powerful economically, military and populous in southeast asia by 1980. The problem with this goal is that exists only two southeast civilizations in the late game: Indonesia and Thailand. Thailand tends to be very weak and unstable during this period of the game, which virtually gives human Indonesia a good advantage or even an easy victory.
Others goals that can be make with this idea are using muslim civilizations. Indonesia have the greatest muslim population in the world. Changing the actual goal to Be the most populated muslim civilization by 1950 or Be the most powerful economically, military and populous muslim civilization by 1980 (although less historical) are good options, because the player will compete with Ottoman Empire/Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Mughal Empire/Pakistan and Uzbekistan, because the player will compete with Ottoman Empire/Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Mughal Empire/Pakistan and Uzbekistan. The mughals, egyptians, iranians and/or the turkish could easily win an unprepared player in one of the described goals.

Sometime ago I have suggested these new goals to the Indonesian UHV. Maybe they can help.