Civilization 5 and Steam(works)

[Acronym2]

Good for you. But Adobe don't really earn money from individuals like you with Photoshop. They have no real interest in using something like Steam. It doesn't make sense.

Say, I don't want go back and forth about Steam all morning but I do want to know how you figure Adobe doesn't make any money from selling photoshop to individuals like me and how that has any bearing on the way their product is licensed versus how a Steam-Powered Game is licensed.

I don't like people spreading falsehoods or truths with modifications. I can see where people are coming from with some of their criticism against Steam. And I fully respect that. For instance, I agree with the notion that Steam should be one of the distribution channels, but it doesn't hurt me that much.

I have even argued against some of the Steam lovers if they too are spreading inaccuracies. I'll admit I use Steam myself, but only for the convenience. And well, yeah, I have so far not run into any issues with it yet. Sure, it has had its hickups, but so could the games have had. I realise that Steam just introduces another mix of possible errors. But nothing's perfect.

Who is spreading falsehoods about Steam and why does it matter to you? Like I asked earlier, why do many people seem to act like any critique of Steam is heresy? Some people like Steam and I don't make comment about their positive feelings towards Steam, tell them they have no reason to think that way or try to convince them they are wrong. Most of us who are anti-Steam simply wish we were given the choice....that's all.

Because it hardly makes sense to me. Let's for sake of argument assume I had gotten my hands on a pirated copy of a game that was not distributed on Steam. So would the publisher of this game, with their own introduced DRM-scheme, ask Valve for help to crack down on pirates?

And in the unlikely event, that the answer is yes (I don't really think that the publisher is willing to invest that much in anti-piracy measures as it has with its own DRM-scheme and given that if someone figured it out, everyone would just say 'don't add this game to Steam, then you are good' and the invest would be pointless), how is Valve going to tackle this? They are now going to verify the legality of a non-Steam game. A game they do not technically support. In order to verification on it, the game either needs to use the Steamworks API (which it won't in this case) or have the original developers hand them actual EXE-files of the game.

And then add to that, there are different versions, if an honest customer is using an older version, should he not be able to continue to do so? So there would be so many individual variables to check for, that Valve simply would not have the capacity and the time.

In short, Valve has no interest in EXE checking non-Steam games. It makes no technical sense or financial sense.

I'll concede that you have a good point here as I misunderstood your earlier post in that you are in actuality commenting on non-Steam games.

However, I cannot stick around and will have to read your reply later........if you choose to post one. I want to get over to Battlefront and order a couple of their games. (They don't use Steam! lol)

 

[Svip]

Say, I don't want go back and forth about Steam all morning but I do want to know how you figure Adobe doesn't make any money from selling photoshop to individuals like me and how that has any bearing on the way their product is licensed versus how a Steam-Powered Game is licensed.

Adobe primarily make their money from corporations who either lease or purchase their licences. This is also why Adobe in the long run does not have an immediate problem with all the piracy going on with their Photoshop lineup and other products. You see, to them, it is actually a win. For all the new hired employees at a certain firm have tried Photoshop before, and are thus used to it, thus the company is more likely to purchase Photoshop.

You vastly overestimate the money made from individual professionals regarding Photoshop. They really get their money from the Entertainment industry and others. But this is actually an argument for another debate.

Who is spreading falsehoods about Steam and why does it matter to you? Like I asked earlier, why do many people seem to act like any critique of Steam is heresy? Some people like Steam and I don't make comment about their positive feelings towards Steam, tell them they have no reason to think that way or try to convince them they are wrong. Most of us who are anti-Steam simply wish we were given the choice....that's all.

I suppose, I want to calm the waters. I want each side to see that their views maybe of an extreme. I understand the notion that you want a choice, which I, quite frankly, agree with. In my mind, that would be the Civ-way to do it. But I don't think that is an argument against Steam, that's an argument against a decision taking by 2K Games.

Then people starts talking about why they don't like Steam, and here - like in any war - truth is the first causality. And from both camps. People are often too busy to find more ammunition that it gets out of hand. I may be a terrible mediator, but at least I care.

I'll concede that you have a good point here as I misunderstood your earlier post in that you are in actuality commenting on non-Steam games.

It's okay. Someone was earlier making a point that non-Steam games was also checked by Steam and such, which is what I responded to and felt that logic made no sense. But yes, Steam games are checked by Steam, that's part of the 'deal'.

 

[Acronym2]

Actually Photoshop and 3ds Max are relatively inexpensive tools for big corporations.

Truly high-end business applications that store and process the thousands of transactions per second that large corporations need are so expensive that, guess what, companies normally don't buy them, or the hardware they run on, outright...they lease them!

As recently as 2007, around 70% of all enterprise data was stored on IBM mainframes, and the vast majority (80%+) of those systems (hardware and software) are leased not owned.

Many of the business practices people complain about with Steam are nothing new in the business world, for example:
You get to pay for license manager software that ensures you are keeping to your license agreements and that generates audit reports to charge you more if you exceed your license,
Those helpful IBM mainframes have for many years had a feature that 'calls' IBM if the mainframe believes something is wrong!
Oh, and I remember when IBM would 'sell' you an upgrade to your mid-range system and the upgrade consisted of an SE coming out to your site and removing a wire, because the system you'd paid for and been running for years already included the additional processors you just hadn't been licensed to use them.
(I think that might just be worse than DLC you have to pay for later being shipped on the game disc! )

I tend to agree that Photoshop/3ds Max, etc. are relatively inexpensive for a company and can be used on a server so usually only one or two copies are needed for a department which can be upgraded for less than the full software package. However, I am of the mind that a significant portion of such purchases are to individuals and not only to commercial entities. What 3d artist or graphic designer doesn't have their own set of tools at home or on the go?

Oh, and I remember when IBM would 'sell' you an upgrade to your mid-range system and the upgrade consisted of an SE coming out to your site and removing a wire, because the system you'd paid for and been running for years already included the additional processors you just hadn't been licensed to use them.

Yeah I remember encountering a situation similar to this on a number of occasions. You feel like they just ripping you off, but from an organizational perspective it was just more efficient to have the equipment pre-installed in anticipation of the future need.

 

[Svip]

I tend to agree that Photoshop/3ds Max, etc. are relatively inexpensive for a company and can be used on a server so usually only one or two copies are needed for a department which can be upgraded for less than the full software package. However, I am of the mind that a significant portion of such purchases are to individuals and not only to commercial entities. What 3d artist or graphic designer doesn't have their own set of tools at home or on the go?

There are fewer than you'd imagine. But, again, I would say this is an argument for a different debate.

 

[Acronym2]

Adobe primarily make their money from corporations who either lease or purchase their licences. This is also why Adobe in the long run does not have an immediate problem with all the piracy going on with their Photoshop lineup and other products. You see, to them, it is actually a win. For all the new hired employees at a certain firm have tried Photoshop before, and are thus used to it, thus the company is more likely to purchase Photoshop.

You vastly overestimate the money made from individual professionals regarding Photoshop. They really get their money from the Entertainment industry and others. But this is actually an argument for another debate.



I suppose, I want to calm the waters. I want each side to see that their views maybe of an extreme. I understand the notion that you want a choice, which I, quite frankly, agree with. In my mind, that would be the Civ-way to do it. But I don't think that is an argument against Steam, that's an argument against a decision taking by 2K Games.

Then people starts talking about why they don't like Steam, and here - like in any war - truth is the first causality. And from both camps. People are often too busy to find more ammunition that it gets out of hand. I may be a terrible mediator, but at least I care.



It's okay. Someone was earlier making a point that non-Steam games was also checked by Steam and such, which is what I responded to and felt that logic made no sense. But yes, Steam games are checked by Steam, that's part of the 'deal'.

Perhaps I do overestimate the number of individuall purchases of Photoshop, 3ds Max, etc. but as you implied....it is kind of a moot point to discuss here.

I'll tell you this, I can agree with you completely when you say having Steam installation optional would be the "Civ-way" to do it. The whole Civ forums and Firaxis have always been so open when it comes to sharing stuff.....in fact I've never seen a game company or modding site that was as open as what we have here. It is such a shock that Firaxis went that way they did with Civ5. (Thinking of how they released the Civ4 Complete Edition DRM free!)

 

[helenr]

I'll tell you this, I can agree with you completely when you say having Steam installation optional would be the "Civ-way" to do it. The whole Civ forums and Firaxis have always been so open when it comes to sharing stuff.....in fact I've never seen a game company or modding site that was as open as what we have here. It is such a shock that Firaxis went that way they did with Civ5. (Thinking of how they released the Civ4 Complete Edition DRM free!)

Adding my agree too I'm not a gamer, other than Civ. So Steam, although I'd heard of it, was a bit of a new thing for me. Having read up quite a lot today, I'm worried. I can understand wanting to use a well-tried multi-player API, which I think is where all this started - Steamworks does all that, so they've plugged it into Civ5.

But I never play multiplayer, ever, I'm not interested in achievements and whatever else is going on, and I patch via CivFanatics. I also have a sucky internet connection, so digital distribution is a no-no for me. 500 - 750kbps ish does not make for happy downloading or online gaming So I'd be wanting a boxed copy, and to only patch when necessary and convenient. I think Steam will make that last bit harder.
From what I've seen, even in "offline" mode, Steam looks for an internet connection and is in fact talking to the Steam server if it finds one, checking for updates and whatever. I might be mistaken, but a post by Ori suggested it to me (or I might be being a dork.) That bothers me - I keep my machine well locked down, I do NOT like stuff lurking in the background being mysterious if I can help it

Having an additional EULA to negotiate, and the ability (even if it's only a technicality) of Steam "switching off" a game that I bought in a shop is also a big freak-out for me.

I dunno, the whole attitude of 2K seems to be "You'll love this! It's great! Honest!" whilst not really answering any of the valid concerns people are raising, especially modders. Fair enough - it's a commercial decision. It's an excellent way to sell additional bonus content to people, quickly and easily. I just wish I was given a choice. If I wanted Steam, I could go buy it from Steam. If I want a single-player version, I can get that instead. Wishful thinking, I guess

I think I'll wait for some of you guys to review it properly before I part with any hard-earned cash.

 

[Acronym2]

Adding my agree too I'm not a gamer, other than Civ. So Steam, although I'd heard of it, was a bit of a new thing for me. Having read up quite a lot today, I'm worried. I can understand wanting to use a well-tried multi-player API, which I think is where all this started - Steamworks does all that, so they've plugged it into Civ5.

But I never play multiplayer, ever, I'm not interested in achievements and whatever else is going on, and I patch via CivFanatics. I also have a sucky internet connection, so digital distribution is a no-no for me. 500 - 750kbps ish does not make for happy downloading or online gaming So I'd be wanting a boxed copy, and to only patch when necessary and convenient. I think Steam will make that last bit harder.
From what I've seen, even in "offline" mode, Steam looks for an internet connection and is in fact talking to the Steam server if it finds one, checking for updates and whatever. I might be mistaken, but a post by Ori suggested it to me (or I might be being a dork.) That bothers me - I keep my machine well locked down, I do NOT like stuff lurking in the background being mysterious if I can help it

Having an additional EULA to negotiate, and the ability (even if it's only a technicality) of Steam "switching off" a game that I bought in a shop is also a big freak-out for me.

I dunno, the whole attitude of 2K seems to be "You'll love this! It's great! Honest!" whilst not really answering any of the valid concerns people are raising, especially modders. Fair enough - it's a commercial decision. It's an excellent way to sell additional bonus content to people, quickly and easily. I just wish I was given a choice. If I wanted Steam, I could go buy it from Steam. If I want a single-player version, I can get that instead. Wishful thinking, I guess

I think I'll wait for some of you guys to review it properly before I part with any hard-earned cash.

I, likewise agree with your post. Your concerns are very much the objections that many of us, including myself, have to using Steam and its been a very heated topic around here with both pros and cons. I personally am not likely to buy Civ5 because I don't really care for Steam and all that comes with it.

On a brighter note, you're new to this forum and I'm sure it will be awhile before you have exhausted the resources that are here. There is still quite alot of entertainment value left in Civ4. (I, myself, am working on some new unit skins and unit models for the game.)

 

[helenr]

On a brighter note, you're new to this forum and I'm sure it will be awhile before you have exhausted the resources that are here. There is still quite alot of entertainment value left in Civ4. (I, myself, am working on some new unit skins and models for the game.)

This is true, and thank you for the welcome (I'm a long-time lurker, just never got round to actually joining till now)
I think a big part of my worry IS all the heat that's been generated. It's obviously something that worries people, including long-time Civ people and very experienced folks, whose opinions I give a lot of weight to. Of course, there's the other side too! It's all very confusing. I think I will settle into my seat on the fence and watch for a while...

As for Civ4, yes you're absolutely right I still find it entertaining, and I've not even got into using mods. I've looked, dithered, and ended up not being able to choose between all the cool stuff. I should take a surf past over there and see what's happening I think.

 

[dinofs]

I will definitely buy Civ 5, and Steam doesn't affect my decision. It sure is nice, though.

 

[Acronym2]

This is true, and thank you for the welcome (I'm a long-time lurker, just never got round to actually joining till now)
I think a big part of my worry IS all the heat that's been generated. It's obviously something that worries people, including long-time Civ people and very experienced folks, whose opinions I give a lot of weight to. Of course, there's the other side too! It's all very confusing. I think I will settle into my seat on the fence and watch for a while...

As for Civ4, yes you're absolutely right I still find it entertaining, and I've not even got into using mods. I've looked, dithered, and ended up not being able to choose between all the cool stuff. I should take a surf past over there and see what's happening I think.

Oh.....I see, you've been lurking around here for a time. Well, don't let all the debate over Steam worry you. A good portion of it is just hot air and I'm sure that you'll learn all that you need to from "sitting on the fence" awhile.

If you need any help with something feel free to send me a PM and I'll do what I can to be of some assistance. If I don't know the answer myself, I probably know where to find it. lol

 

[PieceOfMind]

Agreed, in all likelihood civ5 will be a good enough game that any possible drawbacks to Steam will pale in comparison. It's an expensive game to preorder so if you have any hesitation the safest path to take at the moment would be to wait and see how the community reacts to it when they start playing it. Us outside the US (and Canada?) are going to have to wait a few more days anyway.

 

[frekk]

I can't believe I'm going to say this but .....

Is there any chance that there will be a console version I can just buy and not have to mess about with third parties being involved long after I buy the thing?

 

[The_Coyote]

Some points considering the usage of steam(works). More or less only steamworks is questioned, but because the required account also is a steam account, some points from steam itself also apply. The original list was not assembled by me, but i added some points (most should see them as positive steamworks features). Also person from both camps have added points to the original. Also atm there are some points (eg steam cloud, VAC) listed which are not ensured to be supported by civ5. I also avoided to have a certain order (positive top, negativ bottom), because:

Everybody shall judge the points for it´s own. Giving them a positve or negative value (or even 0, if he couldn´t care less about a point) and make the conclusion if the usage steamworks is a positive or a negative step.

• no real transparency what data is collected
• multiplayer (matchmaking, ...)
• chats
• at least one time registration required to steam, even if the game was bought somewhere else (minimum personal information is an email adress and in countries where this applies it would be also the ip)
• in game browser
• achievements
• possibility that all games attached to the account are lost (the range of opinions go from absolut unlike to possible)
• leaderbords
• the moment you have an account, you can take advantage of the steam special action prices
• steam cloud (uplaod your savegames to steam, share them, use them on a different pc)
• no sale of already activated games possible (technical you can sell the dvd, but the woth is 0) or lending to a friend (it´s technical possible, if you give your friend your account data, but not legal following the SSA. And only one of you both could play simultaneous a game linked to this account in online mode)
• steam community / offizial groups / friends list
• collection of play behaviour data
• in game dlc / mods
• anti cheat for multiplayer (incl. multiplayer bans (VAC))
• builds up connection to a server, even if set to offline mode, if internet is available (if it´s a still not fixed bug (the behaviour is known to Valve, but still not fixed to 100%) or wanted feature is unknown)
• autoupdates
• no 100% functionality ensured (but if someone knows a complex program which does this)
• another DRM
• no cd / dvd in drive
• requires of a contract with a third party to play the game
• at least one time activation via internet
• if you lost you cd/dvd you can still download the game via steam
• most (or all) games bought for pc can be dl afterwards for the mac if available for free (no need to buy a pc and a mac version)
• if you bought DLC, more personal information are needed
• intransparent privacy policy and for residents outside of the USA only: data is transfered and stored in the USA, hence suability could be quite difficult to achieve.
• do not require a constant internet connection to play the game in offline mode

 

[Achilleslastand]

Im sorry if i want a game im not too lazy to hop in the car and go buy it. For my 50bucks i want a box,disk and a game manual at least. To pay the same price for a download,cd key and a manual on pdf is a ripoff at best.
Im tired of greedy game developers selling us bits and peices of a game and calling it DLC when it should have been included in the original game.
I would love to know some of the inside info on the deals they make with steam.

 

[Acronym2]

Im sorry if i want a game im not too lazy to hop in the car and go buy it. For my 50bucks i want a box,disk and a game manual at least. To pay the same price for a download,cd key and a manual on pdf is a ripoff at best.
Im tired of greedy game developers selling us bits and peices of a game and calling it DLC when it should have been included in the original game.
I would love to know some of the inside info on the deals they make with steam.

I just order on-line from the game company itself or Gamestop and three days later the dvd is sitting in my mail box!

 

[Xzylvador]

The Deluxe version seems to have disappeared from Steam.
Did a Google search on it to verify and it finds a link.
If you open it from Google's cache ('non-updated version of the steam website') it'll show a pre-order of both the normal and the Deluxe version.
If you just click on the link to go to the steam store, only the normal version of Civ V is shown.

 

[Acronym2]

Im sorry if i want a game im not too lazy to hop in the car and go buy it. For my 50bucks i want a box,disk and a game manual at least. To pay the same price for a download,cd key and a manual on pdf is a ripoff at best.
Im tired of greedy game developers selling us bits and peices of a game and calling it DLC when it should have been included in the original game.
I would love to know some of the inside info on the deals they make with steam.

I just order over the internet from the game company or Gamestop and three days later the dvd is siting in my mailbox.

You have to remember that the big appeal of Steam is the bigger return in revenue, if not for that, the game companies probably wouldn't bother to integrate it. The retail price of a new release is usually the same if it's a digital download or on dvd, but the digital download is almost all pure profit while the dvd version involves the cost of manufacture, packaging, shipping and distribution. Its the reason behind the incentive of a special Babylonian Civ5 add-on along with a discount if you pre-order a Civ5 digital download. (Otherwise nobody in their right mind would bother to pre-order a digital down-load.) Firaxis/2kgames will be able adjust the number of dvd copies they produce based on the pre-orders of digital downloads. (In theory, they could also defray some or all of the costs of producing the dvd versions from the pre-order income.)

Well, Ladies and Gentlemen......with that said, I'm going to get away from all this bickering and go have some fun. Time to make myself an avatar and reskin some units!

 

[Svip]

I can't believe I'm going to say this but .....

Is there any chance that there will be a console version I can just buy and not have to mess about with third parties being involved long after I buy the thing?

On modern consoles, Steam is basically the same as what the PS3, Xbox360 and Wii offers. The point is just that their system is 'integrated' with their system, so you don't see it.

But it has all the DRM checking, SDK features and what you've come to expect of Steam just on the console. But since the console is a platform intended for this (i.e. gaming), then they can build it into the system and you won't see it. It would be like if Steam came as a standard part of a Windows installation.

Oh and, how would you control game like Civ5 on a joystick? Rev really had to be toned down here and there for its console usage.

 

[mjs0]

I can't believe I'm going to say this but .....

Is there any chance that there will be a console version I can just buy and not have to mess about with third parties being involved long after I buy the thing?

Even if the developers could adapt the UI to the limited controls available on a console controller in a way that worked there are physical limits that are not so easy to overcome. The worst of these is probably the amount of RAM.
I believe the XBOX360 and PS3 (although implemented very differently) both have effectively about 512Mb of total RAM available to the CPU and GPU. Given the high memory usage of a typical Civ game which is due in part to the number and variety of values kept on a per tile/unit/city basis, it is hard to see how a game like Civ4 could be implemented with such limited memory especially if you want map sizes equivalent to those on the PC.

Civ5 may of course be another situation entirely, especially if, as seems likely the number of units in the game is significantly lower, though based on the most recent release date announcement which referred to "vast, realistic landscapes" there is some evidence that map sizes at least are no smaller.

Regardless, how you would maintain anything close to the look of Civ5 without sacrificing either the depth or scale of the game when you have a total of 512Mb for both in-memory game state and graphics is hard to imagine.

 

[ori]

The Deluxe version seems to have disappeared from Steam.
Did a Google search on it to verify and it finds a link.
If you open it from Google's cache ('non-updated version of the steam website') it'll show a pre-order of both the normal and the Deluxe version.
If you just click on the link to go to the steam store, only the normal version of Civ V is shown.

Indeed - I looked for it as well now, from here only the normal version can currently be bought (oh and they release it a day prior to the official release date here 9/23).
Curious what the reason is.