Civilization 5 and Steam(works)

[PieceOfMind]

Steam allows you purchase a so called 'licence'-deal, if you are a computer café (or whatever the English term is), institution or something. Basically where you need a lot of accounts and a lot of licences. These deals are typically a lot cheaper than purchasing each individually.

That being said. I still think Paradox's games are more educational than Civ. In fact, I cannot really see the educational aspect of Civ4 right off the bat. Sure it has history build into it, but Paradox's games is playing history.



Nah. I think its selling point is the digital distribution. Purchasing the goods still require packaging and shipment. A lot of extra expenses. With digital distribution, the distribution cost is almost only going to keeping the servers alive. Which of course, individually is more expensive than packing one game. But considering how many games a server can distribute over time; it's a fraction of the packaging and shipment costs are on physical products.

Svip, did you not notice me talking about maths teachers? Civ4 is quite heavy on maths actually. I'm not talking about differential calculus and the like, but rather the basics of numeracy like arithmetic and ordering and decimal places etc. Once you've reached a level of education like you or I may have, it's easy to miss these things. Think about what a 10year old is likely learning though...

Regarding Paradox games, honestly I've never heard about them from educators. From what I understand, they are quite a lot more complex than civ4, making them much more difficult to use for education.

You'll find many people support the idea of using civ4 as an educational tool. For starters, it is much preferred over "shooters" and so forth which most parents and teachers still believe have an overall negative impact on youth.

Regarding schools purchasing a license to use Steam. At least where I live, that's highly unlikely. Even for educational purposes that license might be comparatively cheap, but it would be hard for any teacher to convince the executives to use up some of the precious budget on such a thing. Schools are already stretched enough with their limited funding. I suppose I shouldn't get into too long a rant, but really I just wanted to report that civ4 has been used on many occasions (or at least suggested) as an educational tool for children, and that I believe it is quite effective for that purpose.

 

[Ahriman]

ebay works a charm too if you're too lazy to leave your chair

Nah, there's still that whole "get to the front door" process. Too intense.
Unless your chair has good wheels, I guess....

impulsive purchasers who lack the self control to shop around

Wow. Bitter much?
What is intrinsically wrong with:
a) Seeing something on a good sale and buying it there
b) Getting the product immediately, rather than waiting a week for delivery.

I don't really think Civ4 is that educational to use in schools. At least, not compared to what you could teach in an equivalent amount of time from regular sources.
For kids as a game for leisure time, sure, they'll learn something.

And Paradox games are, unfortunately, rather too complex/take too long to learn/not "shiny" enough for the median/lower quartile high-school student.

 

[PieceOfMind]

In that week before delivery, you can study up on the game and get all the patches etc. If it's a game you're buying a couple years after it was released, waiting a couple more days is really not that big a deal.

 

[Svip]

I installed Steam about a month ago and purchased CIV III and Railroad Tycoon to give it a whirl.
So far I'm completely indifferent to having it. It hasn't done anything nasty like erase my hard drive and set my computer on fire, but it hasn't really got me excited either. I rarely play MP games and when I do its hanging out with my friends playing a hotseat game, could care less about achievements, Steam or otherwise (no offense to HoF players)
My only concern is what if Steam goes out of business gets closed down or whatever in the near future?
I realize that the probability of this happening is extremely low, however just a few short years ago (if even that long) the same could be said about Ford, GM, Chrysler, and significant list of major players on Wall Street.
So I believe that in this day and age this is a legitimate concern. Does anyone think that Steam falls into the "To Big to Fail Category"?

I would think no. But, considering how many companies, publishers and developers included have invested their lifeline in Steam, I am going with 'they are probably going to do everything they can to save Steam, if it gets into trouble'. But right now, Steam is not that costly for Valve to maintain. And while, this does remain a concern for me, I think I too am over nervous.

But Ford, GM and Chrysler was just waiting to go haywire. Remember, who is actually interested other than themselves that they remain that much in business? Well, that and their investors and apparently the American government. Look at the products they make, I would rather invest my money in Steam based on quality alone.

I don't think buying the appropriate amount of copies would be the issue for an instution. I believe (can't back this up, just "think" it ) that they are likely to buy the amount of licenses that they need. The question it brings to my mind is this: If you were in charge of a schools IT dept. would you put Steam on your schools computers?

Well, if I was in charge of a school's IT department, I would have installed Linux on those machines months ago. No games, kids! But in a realistic scenario, yes, Steam can be controlled. But need to be careful about it. You can make Steam run in a 'crippled' mode, where it can only play games, not install anything or some such. And even if students find a way to login to their own accounts, they won't be able to install any games or some such. I have seen this in action myself, so I know it works.

But yeah, I probably would pick Europa Universalis 3 and Victoria 2 over Civ for educational purposes. Sorry.

Svip, did you not notice me talking about maths teachers? Civ4 is quite heavy on maths actually. I'm not talking about differential calculus and the like, but rather the basics of numeracy like arithmetic and ordering and decimal places etc. Once you've reached a level of education like you or I may have, it's easy to miss these things. Think about what a 10year old is likely learning though...

I do apologise, I thought you were thinking about history. But yes, I get your point now.

Regarding Paradox games, honestly I've never heard about them from educators. From what I understand, they are quite a lot more complex than civ4, making them much more difficult to use for education.

Well, as I assumed we were talking about history, I also assumed it was for older kids.

You'll find many people support the idea of using civ4 as an educational tool. For starters, it is much preferred over "shooters" and so forth which most parents and teachers still believe have an overall negative impact on youth.

Hehe, violence. But I get your point. But are there much math in "shooters"? I mean, if that is the case, let them play Myst!

Regarding schools purchasing a license to use Steam. At least where I live, that's highly unlikely. Even for educational purposes that license might be comparatively cheap, but it would be hard for any teacher to convince the executives to use up some of the precious budget on such a thing. Schools are already stretched enough with their limited funding. I suppose I shouldn't get into too long a rant, but really I just wanted to report that civ4 has been used on many occasions (or at least suggested) as an educational tool for children, and that I believe it is quite effective for that purpose.

Wait wait, did they not have to pay all the licences for Civ4 too? By the way; Steam is free of charge. I was talking about a licence deal on Civ5 through Steam.

Edit: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-- I made a double post. Shame on me.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Shame I live in a country that these companies do not intend to ship quickly to. You should consider yourself lucky, that Amazon is a viable alternative to you. That's not the case for me. In addition, I do like not having to fiddle with a CD, unless I have to be nostalgic. And that's just wrong with a modern game.

In addition to that, more and more computers, laptops especially, are now being made without a disc-drive, because they are old and clunky and take up space and weight, which is especially an issue in many laptops. So for some people, they have to rely on installing software via the internet.

And I can bet you, that disc-drives will slow vanish away and be replaced by either digital distribution or USB-sticks or possibly a new miniature sized read-only format.

That's a risky bet. It's not as if BluRay is the end of the line for discs. Disc media are still enjoying huge research and development. Disc protoypes many years ago were already exceeding the 100s of GB if I recall correctly. The cost of manufacturing them just needs to come down and you have disc media not being obsolete.

Even Sony alone I think would help make sure discs don't disappear. It might even require making external disc drives far cheaper, so netbooks and the like can use them.

Svip wrote:


I don't think buying the appropriate amount of copies would be the issue for an instution. I believe (can't back this up, just "think" it ) that they are likely to buy the amount of licenses that they need. The question it brings to my mind is this: If you were in charge of a schools IT dept. would you put Steam on your schools computers?

Oh yeah, that too. I forgot to mention that.

Teachers have a responsibility to scrutinise any internet-based content they may expose to the class. Even sites that have ads with bikini clad women (e.g. Evony ads) or diet bills etc. can be refused. The way to get around this I think is that they use fairly extensive filtering. But back to the point, I really really can't imagine a school actually allowing Steam in the school environment. There are just far too many security/ethical concerns.

Wait wait, did they not have to pay all the licences for Civ4 too? By the way; Steam is free of charge. I was talking about a licence deal on Civ5 through Steam.

IIRC, in many territories there are various priviledges granted to educational institutions in this regard. In other words, if the use of the game is not for profit and it is for education, I think there is some amount to which using it in the classroom is allowed. It might mean it takes one license (which is tied to a single copy anyway). It might only require that one license be used for each computer that has it installed. If it's only 1 computer, there mightn't be a problem even if the whole class uses it, so long as it stays on one computer.
You'll have to forgive me for not being familiar with all that legal stuff though.

 

[Ahriman]

In that week before delivery, you can study up on the game and get all the patches etc.

Why would I need to "study up on a game" before playing it but after buying it?
Why would it take me a week to download patches?

If it's a game you're buying a couple years after it was released, waiting a couple more days is really not that big a deal.

Sure it is. Its not uncommon to be "hey, I have some spare time this weekend, maybe I'll pick up a new game".

Its the same way that Netflix Watch Instantly is a better product than driving to a video store.

* * *
Also: I think math classes will teach numeracy/arithmetic better by actually teaching it, rather than by having kids play video games, most of which teaches them nothing about math.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Also: I think math classes will teach numeracy/arithmetic better by actually teaching it, rather than by having kids play video games, most of which teaches them nothing about math.

lol no one is suggesting replacing actual maths lessons. One of the main advantages of educational software/games is that if it's good enough, the student might actually play it in their leisure time.

I see you putting your opinion there, but I really don't see much point other than disagreeing for the heck of it. As I said before, what I'm telling you is what I've been told by maths teachers (and trainee teachers) as well as tutors working with challenged/challenging students.

And the remark about the majority of video games not being educational, thanks for diverting the attention away from what I was actually talking about - civ4. Are you denying that civ4 has value in teaching the player various mathematical skills? From my experience, one of the most effective ways to get any child learning is by getting them to or letting them have fun. 10 minutes playing a video game, believe it or not, can be far more effective than a 60 minute lesson on Pythag, depending on how well that lesson goes.

 

[Grouchey]

What is intrinsically wrong with:
a) Seeing something on a good sale and buying it there
b) Getting the product immediately, rather than waiting a week for delivery.

Nothing wrong at all. But the Steam Store excels at other things -- like overpriced impulse purchases.

Its the same way that Netflix Watch Instantly is a better product than driving to a video store.

Netflix Watch Instantly doesn't cost $50 a pop; moreover Netflix main business is mail order like Amazon so the analogy is poor.

@Svip -- yes I understand for some people it's hard to buy games through the mail order web sites at an affordable price even if you wanted to. I wonder if there will be digital download options besides Steam for CIV V?

 

[Ahriman]

Are you denying that civ4 has value in teaching the player various mathematical skills?

Relative to what they would learn by regular classroom teaching, or doing actual math homework?
Yes, absolutely. What % of your time playing civ are you learning anything about math?
10%? 5%?

And be clear; are you talking about games being played in school, or at home?

I don't really see schools going out and paying for video games for students to play in leisure time.

And if they're assigning it as homework instead of proper homework, again I don't see that as being very productive.

I think giving your own children games like Civ to play as games is a great thing to do.

I don't think there is a strong use for it as a tool used by schools/teachers

Yes, teachers use it... because its an easy low-effort way to run a class.

But hey, I have a somewhat conservative view of education.

Netflix Watch Instantly doesn't cost $50 a pop

So what?
Because I'm paying more for something I should have to wait a week for it and not get it quickly?
That makes no logical sense.

But the Steam Store excels at other things -- like overpriced impulse purchases.

Yes, Steam can get people to make impulse purchasers.
But that's not your argument. Your argument is that steam excels at making people make impulse purchases AND THEREFORE we shouldn't use/support steam.

Which is ridiculous. Because Steam provides other benefits too over buying a physical product disc.

Don't pretend that physical distribution is somehow more noble or virtuous than digital distribution.

If you want another analogy; buying music online vs waiting a week for a cd to get shipped to you.

And finally; you don't think Amazon tries to get you to make impulse purchases??

 

[3 EMS]

Svip wrote:

But Ford, GM and Chrysler was just waiting to go haywire. Remember, who is actually interested other than themselves that they remain that much in business? Well, that and their investors and apparently the American government. Look at the products they make, I would rather invest my money in Steam based on quality alone.

This wasn't the first time for Chrysler. They were saved from the brink once before. Was it back in the 80's? Seems that they made tanks. Don't know if they still do or not but it wasn't that they were "too big to fail". Rather it was that they were needed for national security. We do need to maintain something of a manufacturing base for that reason.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Relative to what they would learn by regular classroom teaching, or doing actual math homework?
Yes, absolutely. What % of your time playing civ are you learning anything about math?
10%? 5%?

And be clear; are you talking about games being played in school, or at home?

I don't really see schools going out and paying for video games for students to play in leisure time.

And if they're assigning it as homework instead of proper homework, again I don't see that as being very productive.

I think giving your own children games like Civ to play as games is a great thing to do.

I don't think there is a strong use for it as a tool used by schools/teachers

Yes, teachers use it... because its an easy low-effort way to run a class.

But hey, I have a somewhat conservative view of education.

Ugh, to be honest I don't think I can be bothered taking up this argument. It's likely that your experiences with children and mathematics have been very different to mine, and we're not going to come to an agreement. There are quite a large number of basic numeracy skills constantly being used when playing a game like civ4 but it looks like you're not going to believe that.
Unless you're a teacher or have children yourself (in which case I'd see more value in discussing this with you), we're probably wasting our time. If you are still interested in discussing it, I'd be happy to take it up via PM. It is something I have quite a lot to say about, but I don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing. (lol, for once )

 

[Fife]

I like civilization and will probably buy it. Even if steam stinks I'd still buy it.

 

[Dermo]

Fair enough, But what about the financial (re: service) companies that suffered, went under etc, big ones made the news but there were (possibly) a huge number of smaller companies that also suffered.

"I would think no. But, considering how many companies, publishers and developers included have invested their lifeline in Steam,"

Consider how many comapnies and people had invested in Lehmann Bros, or Fannie Mae etc"

" And while, this does remain a concern for me, I think I too am over nervous."

I probably am as well, unfortunatly the temptation to sacrifice long term sustainabilty for short term profits seems too prevalent in todays business world

Also: by no means do I consider my self an expert on what happened leading up to and during this financial crisis, these are opinions, only based on my percption of events.

Also on a slightly unrelated topic:How do I quote other posts? I see a checkbox, but it is greyed out.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Fair enough, But what about the financial (re: service) companies that suffered, went under etc, big ones made the news but there were (possibly) a huge number of smaller companies that also suffered.

"I would think no. But, considering how many companies, publishers and developers included have invested their lifeline in Steam,"

Consider how many comapnies and people had invested in Lehmann Bros, or Fannie Mae etc"

" And while, this does remain a concern for me, I think I too am over nervous."

I probably am as well, unfortunatly the temptation to sacrifice long term sustainabilty for short term profits seems too prevalent in todays business world

Also: by no means do I consider my self an expert on what happened leading up to and during this financial crisis, these are opinions, only based on my percption of events.

Also on a slightly unrelated topic:How do I quote other posts? I see a checkbox, but it is greyed out.

There's a tiny possibility that because you have fewer than 5 posts still there is some weird restriction on you. But if you can see the quote button, try pressing it even if it's greyed out. If that still fails, you can always just copy paste their comments into your post and put these tags around it...

[quote=PieceOfMind] blah blah blah[/quote]
to get

blah blah blah

 

[Fife]

Probably won't matter. It might be a new, legit add.

 

[Dermo]

There's a tiny possibility that because you have fewer than 5 posts still there is some weird restriction on you. But if you can see the quote button, try pressing it even if it's greyed out. If that still fails, you can always just copy paste their comments into your post and put these tags around it...

Thanks

 

[Grouchey]

I think giving your own children games like Civ to play as games is a great thing to do. I don't think there is a strong use for it as a tool used by schools/teachers

Agree 100%.

Because I'm paying more for something I should have to wait a week for it and not get it quickly?
That makes no logical sense.

Didn't say that of course. To be clear for you, I'm saying there's a big difference between renting a movie to watch and purchasing a video game "forever", not the least because the video game is almost always much more expensive. I'll also add that video games hold more appeal to younger people, who also happen to struggle much more with impulse decisions generally than older people do.

But yes of course I think it pays to shop around if one can before plunking down $50 bucks. Rich people don't have to care about this.

I can't believe you would have missed the point I was making about mail order -- that it is a perfectly reasonable way to shop when going to the shopping center is what you're trying to avoid (as Svip was). You tried to obscure this fact by comparing Netflix Watch Instantly to going to the video store, omitting the most common delivery system for Netflix, which is mail order.

My problem with the Steam Store versus Amazon or other distributors, is that there's no meaningful wall of separation between playing video games and shopping for video games on Steam. It's so mixed together that messages pop while loading and closing the games urging you to buy DLC or a new release. The fact that you may be able to turn some of this off doesn't diminish the point. Fact is the Steam Store's unique method is a potent cocktail mixed to fuel impulse purchases -- and it works. The fact that Steam is the dominant multiplayer platform also helps push impulse buys at its store. Finally, the sad and troubling fact that to play games like CIV V you must use Steam, which is not true of other games and game distribution sites, also helps push sales of impulse buys like DLC.

Some of these points are so obvious I can't even believe were debating them.

Finally, yes, for these (and other reasons discussed exhaustively in this forum), I think we should try to resist Steam where it is reasonable to do so. Impulse purchases do not improve the quality of video games.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Agree 100%.

Do note that a tool to teachers can include it being a recommended thing to do at home, or even to just talk about with individual students if they happen to have an interest in the sort of game. Sometimes building rapport with students means understanding and being involved with what they enjoy doing in their leisure time.

Why do you think children in primary school get so much play time? Do you think they're not learning when they're having fun? Why don't they constantly have their books out studying facts? The development of a child's brain and their education are both really fascinating subjects, and both have a lot of existing and ongoing research. Until recently teachers have barely even considered the impacts games could have on children in terms of their education and brain development, but given that so many children these days play a lot of games, it can be viewed as a huge waste to just ignore this opportunity. It's not about sitting them all down in class and letting them play a video game for 60 minutes. If your mind is closed to the concept, you likely will not see any potential in it at all.

I recall playing a fairly simple game called MathsCircus (I think) about 15 years ago, at school on those really old macintosh machines, with the monocrhome CRTs. It was certainly a lot more fun than lessons writing numbers on a page (though it certainly didn't replace those lessons either!). I cant' remember the exact details but it might have been in our lunchtimes that we were occasionally given the opportunity to play those games. What about letting students play civ4 at lunch time?

 

[Ahriman]

Unless you're a teacher

I've read a moderate amount of educational psychology, I've created resources for ESL high school kids, and I've done a lot of teaching directly, but only of undergrad college students and some of grad students. I fully admit that things are different for younger kids, and I am no expert.
But if my kid's math teacher had them play Civ for a week in math class instead of actually teaching anything, I'd be pretty upset. And I'd be equally upset if they assigned playing Civ as a homework assignment (and if school resources were being used to pay for a copy of Civ on the home computers of every student).
Students learn by doing. Yes, they learn a little from playing a game like civ.
But its perfectly possible to play Civ without doing any mathematic calculations at all.
And so there would be plenty of kids goofing off in hard to monitor ways, and plenty of kids not learning anything at all.
So I think its more productive to teach in a way where students are doing something that guarantees that they're actually doing learning.

Its not that Civ can't teach things. But its that regular classwork generally teaches more effectively given the same number of hours.

And I'm not the only one - if Grouchey and I can agree on something.... ;-)

If your mind is closed to the concept, you likely will not see any potential in it at all.

I kinda resent the implication that we're just incapable of understanding educational psychology.

What about letting students play civ4 at lunch time?

Harmless, I have no problem with that.

Why do you think children in primary school get so much play time?

I thought we were talking about older kids (primary school ~5-9?). Kids beyond this *don't* get much playtime in their classes.
I think Civ is a little too complex for kds in primary school.

* * *

But yes of course I think it pays to shop around if one can before plunking down $50 bucks.

How are you less able to shop around through digital purchase than through retail purchase? How does the existence of Steam prevent you from shopping around?

If I see something on Steam that has a good sale and I want to buy it, its not very hard to do a google search for a price check on several other sources for the same game, see which are cheaper, and see whether a $1-2 price difference is worth waiting a week for or whether its worth getting it now.

I don't understand your argument which seems to say "Steam is bad for consumers because it makes you buy expensive stuff, and so we should not support it, and instead buy from physical box retailers".

that it is a perfectly reasonable way to shop when going to the shopping center is what you're trying to avoid

Mail order is fine for what it is. But its not a reason to call for people to refuse to use Steam.

 

[tom2050]

I dont use steam, or own these games, however I may have a work around for this problem. I have read on these forums the ability to have nonsteam games be added to your steam play list. Could that be what it means with having the games registered with your steam account also? I honestly dont know, but it seems probable?

Steam has this ability, you just have to hope and pray that the hidden underlaying DRM EXE checker (or w/e it may use) doesn't think the legit software is illegal and doesn't permanently ban your whole account.

If it doesn't, great! Otherwise, you need to go gameless while proving you are innocent to the Big Steam Brother.

Chances are, it is nothing to worry about and probably doesn't happen often, but the chance is unknown.