Civilization 5 and Steam(works)

How will the integration of Steam(works) influence your decision on buying Civ5?

  • I will probably buy the game, Steam is making me more likely to buy it.

    Votes: 62 9.3%
  • I will probably buy the game, Steam does not influence this decision either way.

    Votes: 93 14.0%
  • I will probably buy the game, Steam is making me less likely to buy it.

    Votes: 94 14.1%
  • I am undecided on whether I will buy the game, Steam is making me more likely to do so.

    Votes: 4 0.6%
  • I am undecided on whether I will buy the game, Steam does not influence this decision either way.

    Votes: 9 1.4%
  • I am undecided on whether I will buy the game, Steam is making me less likely to do so.

    Votes: 48 7.2%
  • I will probably NOT buy the game, Steam is making me more likely to buy it.

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • I will probably NOT buy the game, Steam does not influence this decision either way.

    Votes: 2 0.3%
  • I will probably NOT buy the game, Steam is making me less likely to buy it.

    Votes: 27 4.1%
  • I will definitely NOT buy the game, because of Steam.

    Votes: 103 15.5%
  • I will definitely NOT buy the game, Steam doesn't affect this decision.

    Votes: 3 0.5%
  • I will definitely buy the game, because of Steam.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • I will definitely buy the game, Steam doesn't affect this decision.

    Votes: 196 29.4%

  • Total voters
    666
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The most pirated games last year was steamworks games - so steamworks doesn´t do wonders to protect games from being pirated.
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Actually, the most highly pirated games are also the most popular games, not exactly rocket science.

With ~23 million XBox360 in the North America, and Call of Duty 4 sold over 3 million copies. With over 80 million gaming PCs that same game sold 0.3 million copies.

Most of the best selling games on the PC charts are older games or mainstream games. Piracy itself it too mainstream now, it has forced changes in the PC Game industry. The best selling PC games will be those with online components because they require legal copies to play.

We are pretty lucky that CIV is a strong enough brand to sell a couple of million copies over a few years. It's still pirated to hell and back, but at least there are a few honest folks playing the game, not just heartless thieves.
 
edpovi, what is the purpose of your statistics on CoD4? On PC, that game had many more worthy competitors than it did on xbox360. It's not as if the difference in sales is due to piracy alone. Heck, I bet a lot of the people who bought it on xbox360 also own a gaming PC making your figures mostly worthless, right?
 
The 9 out of 10 for World of Goo is often stated as fact but it is not. At the very least, if the author wanted any credibility with making such an estimate he/she should also have given an estimate to the uncertainty - it was not done. Also, what evidence do you have for the assertion that indie games get a higher percentage of sales? I think it would be just as reasonable to speculate that indie games are more likely to be pirated than big budget titles because consumers are taking a greater risk (with an unknown developer) and are probably even more likely to "try before buy" so to speak.

I've never heard of anyone debating the World of Goo numbers before, and I'm not really sure what you mean by estimating the uncertainty- it was simply a statement by the developers based on the number of verified IPs that connected to their service versus the number that didn't. It's been a while since I actually looked at it, but nothing about it seemed manufactured to me.

As for the indie games, it's been my experience with titles of this nature that people typically don't bother pirating them. They usually appeal to a small fanbase of more dedicated users who actually support the makers of the game. Take Dwarf Fortress, for example- I can't imagine too many people play that game considering it's complexity and the fact that the graphics are all ASCII art, yet the developer still makes a living solely off donations. This is all conjecture and personal experience though, there really isn't much information at all about piracy rates unfortunately.
 
I am definitely buying Civ 5, steam or no steam. If it must have steam then so be it. While initially hesitant. It is in no way a deal breaker. The one unit per tile was what swayed it for me.

I am a hardcore civ-player and have been for decades (and the last year or two have started modding). Civ 5 w/steam is just the way it has to be.

I hope in a couple of years to release my own fully fledged mod as opposed to a modified mod and from what I understand Civ 5 will be more modifiable than Civ 4.
 
I've never heard of anyone debating the World of Goo numbers before
It's probably because most people in the industry, naturally, would rather talk up the piracy figures than talk them down.
, and I'm not really sure what you mean by estimating the uncertainty- it was simply a statement by the developers based on the number of verified IPs that connected to their service versus the number that didn't.
It was clearly an estimate of the piracy rate. The headline was even simply "90%", put that way for effect.

It is common in the media for people to quote various point estimates of statistics without giving an estimate of the uncertainty. For example, many political polls with a two-party preferred question use about 1000 people as the sample and this usually results in about a plus or minus 3% as the 95% confidence interval, yet that little important detail is often omitted or at the best of times put in fine print on the television screen. So about 95% of the time, the true proportion of people voting one way or the other will be within 3 points of the actual claimed estimate. e.g. a poll that reports 48% prefer candidate A and 52% prefer candidate B would usually mean anywhere between 45 and 51% prefer candidate A, and 5% of the time that would be wrong.

In the article about the piracy of world of goo, no attempt is made to estimate the uncertainty in the estimate. To me, this is usually one of the biggest indications that the author is not qualified or at least not justified in making the statistical judgements they do.

He does make a point to call it a "rough estimate", but the damage is done and people will then gobble up that number and use it in debates like it's a scientifically proven to a high level of confidence "fact".

It's been a while since I actually looked at it, but nothing about it seemed manufactured to me.
It doesn't need to be manufactured for it to be wrong. When you look for statistics that suit your argument, it's very easy to find them even if the argument you support is probably wrong. This is why in medicine there are such stringent conditions for how to use evidence from experiments. It's called Evidence Based Medicine and IMO it's one of the reasons Western medicine is such a success.

Yes, the level of evidence in examining piracy rates may not be quite as important because it's not as if lives are depending on it, but there still should be minimum standards for the accuracy of evidence IMO.
As for the indie games, it's been my experience with titles of this nature that people typically don't bother pirating them. They usually appeal to a small fanbase of more dedicated users who actually support the makers of the game. Take Dwarf Fortress, for example- I can't imagine too many people play that game considering it's complexity and the fact that the graphics are all ASCII art, yet the developer still makes a living solely off donations. This is all conjecture and personal experience though, there really isn't much information at all about piracy rates unfortunately.

Agreed. All speculation, and pretty much always anecdotal evidence dominates these discussions.
 

Thanks, Senethro. I'll take a look.

It's interesting already to see this statement, from the developers of a game that reportedly was pirated through the roof:
Again, the implication from the company is they think perhaps 1 or 2 of every 1000 of those pirated copies could have been a sale.
Yes, that's a cherry picked quote, but it shows the pragmatism that some companies are prepared to demonstrate. I congratulate 2d Boy for the bold stance they have taken on the DRM issue.
“by the way, just in case it’s not 100% clear, we’re not angry about piracy, we still think that DRM is a waste of time and money, we don’t think that we’re losing sales due to piracy, and we have no intention of trying to fight it.”

Now I gotta slog through the reader comments :lol:.
 
Actually, the most highly pirated games are also the most popular games, not exactly rocket science.

With ~23 million XBox360 in the North America, and Call of Duty 4 sold over 3 million copies. With over 80 million gaming PCs that same game sold 0.3 million copies.

Most of the best selling games on the PC charts are older games or mainstream games. Piracy itself it too mainstream now, it has forced changes in the PC Game industry. The best selling PC games will be those with online components because they require legal copies to play.

We are pretty lucky that CIV is a strong enough brand to sell a couple of million copies over a few years. It's still pirated to hell and back, but at least there are a few honest folks playing the game, not just heartless thieves.

GalCiv 2 had ZERO multiplayer, and no real online component, yet it was a top 10 selling PC game. I don't think that statement entirely holds true.

I think piracy rates are effected by these things, in order:

a) Popularity of game
b) Type of game
c) Price
d) DRM anger- which may be the most damaging, as that turns legitimate consumers into pirates.

Even Brad Wardell has said he'd DRM up a FPS if Stardock made one. He just makes games that customers want to buy, and he thinks the preferences of customers are vastly different from that of pirates. I agree, which is why I think the Civ V Steam issues could be bigger then MW2. Civ customers are smarter and more pirckly about their rights.
 
@ Directed at others,
As for whether PC gaming is dying, seriously, you've got to be kidding me. If some of the biggest developers or publishers want to shift to the consoles then let them. Someone new will come to fill their place because there will always be a market for PC games, and frankly we might actually get some more refreshing games than just console ports all the time (not that I mind console ports, some of them are pretty good).

Yeah, I kind of feel the doomsayers are jumping the gun a bit about a dying pc game industry. Interesting enough, one member of the Dawn of War developement team said something to the effect that people have been saying the pc game industry has been "dying" since 1994 but feels that as long as there are pc's, companies will be making and selling games for them.
 
PC gaming won't die until we can buy full-fledged FPS's that run well on netbooks :D
 
Can't TF2 run on a netbook yet?

That said, I think low-spec PC gaming may be the wave of the future.
 
Can't TF2 run on a netbook yet?

That said, I think low-spec PC gaming may be the wave of the future.

I actually have a really hard time believing that. I can easily spend 4 hours straight playing Call of Duty or Civilization IV; the depth or sheer amount of unique gameplay for both are very addictive and entertaining. However, the time-waster "games" on platforms such as iPod touches/phones would NEVER replace my gaming repertoire (big words :D). Seriously though, those go beyond casual. Sure, they're portable, but they never amount to more than just "something better to do when you're bored". Unless I'm interpreting your response all wrong (hehe) and you're talking more about Civ 5 versus Crysis 2.
 
I don't mean THAT low spec LOL.

By Low Spec I mean stuff like Civ, TF2, or Elemental, as opposed to Crysis.
 
I don't mean THAT low spec LOL.

By Low Spec I mean stuff like Civ, TF2, or Elemental, as opposed to Crysis.

Haha, yeah, that's why I left the caveat on the bottom of my last post. Although, flashy, high-powered games will always hold a certain cool factor and we probably won't see them gone anytime soon. Sometimes I want a high-speed, interactive challenge in gaming and not just a strategic challenge.
 
If Steam helps grow the PC game industry to become even a fraction as big as the console industry, and makes games like Civ 5 so commercially viable that there are ten of them coming out every year instead of being an anomaly or exception that pops up every few years, how can this be a bad thing?

If Steam is the price of keeping the PC game alive, I think I'll be introducing myself to the console. I don't think I'll be alone, either.
 
If Steam is the price of keeping the PC game alive, I think I'll be introducing myself to the console. I don't think I'll be alone, either.

I would probably be playing my backlog of PC games--you know, the ones that don't require a connection to the internet to install and play.

That and catch up on my reading.
 
If Steam is the price of keeping the PC game alive, I think I'll be introducing myself to the console. I don't think I'll be alone, either.

Dont let us stop you. While you start playing all those awesome (hehe) strategy games available on consoles, me and many others will gladly continue using Steam....
 
If Steam is the price of keeping the PC game alive, I think I'll be introducing myself to the console. I don't think I'll be alone, either.

The console is what a Steam monopoly future would look like, in terms of gouging customers and proprietary DRM. There's really no need to abandon the PC over Steam- there are still viable competitors such as Impulse and Gamersgate, which need to be supported to ensure competition in future.

Yeah I own a console, but only because one genre of games I play- does not have a presence on the PC, and consoles do provide standardization of hardware which is good for some games.
 
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