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Civilization 5 Game Of The Year Edition

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by The_J, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    Check it out. I never played succession games, so I never followed them and can't tell you. I heard they were stalled pre-patch because people were worried about losing game post patch, but there might be some going on now. And heck, start one if you're interested in them - I know a lot of people used to enjoy them, and I'm sure you could wrangle up a succession game group.
     
  2. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    Overwhelming evidence huh? Show me. I promise you that for everything you can show, I can show something that offsets it. Until you have hard evidence that's objectively greater than our hard evidence (hint, neither of us has any that is unchallengeable), then you aren't right either. So basically, you are doing the exact thing you are accusing everyone here of doing. Painting your own opinion as if it were objective fact.
     
  3. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    Here's the problem Builler. You're right, this IS a source of information concerning this game and it's a place a number of people are likely to come to concerning to find out what this game is like. That being the case, I think a balanced perspective is important when talking about the game.

    The thing is, I see three general groups of people talking about the game. One is the group that thinks it's just super dandy and highly recommends it to everyone because it's so awesome and everyone should like it - a group that's a rarity.

    Another is the group that takes a middle ground - the game has a lot to offer, but it has issues and isn't for everyone, and potential buyers should be aware.

    The third group is quite prevalent in this thread. "Oh, if you like this game, you obviously have very low tastes - unlike me, because I'm just a super-better-smarter gamer!" and "it's a turd, plain and simple!"

    Seeing as the first group is a rarity to say the least, I don't find them really skewing the perception of this game. But the fact is, I know a lot of people who enjoy the crap out of Civ V, and it stands to reason there are a lot of people out there who haven't played it yet who might like it. If one of the most prestigious sources of Civ V information is loaded with people who mock the people who like it as veritable idiots, reductively painting them as some twitch-happy Halo audience, and that this game is just Civ Rev over again. That is simply not true. The gamers who do like Civ V are oftentimes quite intellectually active people who are obviously not twitch-junkies, etc etc.

    It's not that people don't like the game that I have a problem with so much. It's the completely one-sided presentation, and treating it as if it's a game no-one should like. In short, I don't like what is a load of hogwash from people in this forum - and I think this thread should illustrate it. Some of you don't like the game, we get that - and I think it's important you continue to voice concerns over major issues with it if you're actually invested in seeing it improve. But being unable or unwilling to concede that this game is making a lot of people happy gamers does little to help make this a balanced place to learn whether Civ V is the right game for you or not. If I'd payed attention to what many of you were saying in the first month or so post-release, I wouldn't have had the great time I'm having with Civ V at this point in time, and that would be a shame.
     
  4. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    It isn't our job to concede anything. We are just expressing our opinion. As you are doing. That's fair enough, and doesn't warrant your "amazement." Anyone looking for info about the game on this board is probably capable of reading more than one post, and if they do so they will see that some hate it, and some see it as the best thing since sliced bread. And some are more middle of the road. Then they can make their own decisions. In the meantime, you running around telling everyone how "amazed" you are doesn't do anything but irritate other posters.
     
  5. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    You're sitting in it. The game has an active following of gamers who like it, are playing it and enjoying it day in day out and come here to talk about it. Go to the strategy and tactics forum and you'll see people happily discussing ins and outs of this and that. Go to a variety of threads here and you'll see a lot of happy gamers. That is overwhelming evidence that there are things in this game worth liking - and I'm sorry, no endless restating of the issues with the game changes that.

    And no, I'm not. There is overwhelming evidence that this game has things that appeal to a lot of gamers. There is also overwhelming evidence that the game is not for everyone, and I will gladly participate in any thread where someone is asking about whether the game is for them or not with an account of why someone might not like the game. I've already outlined major issues in this very thread - and, no bones about it, these are SIGNIFICANT issues that will turn a lot of people off the game. The game is, objectively, troubled, but also has a great deal that appeals to a lot of gamers. Is that really so biased a perspective on it? Moreso than "it's a turd and the only ones who like it have low standards"?
     
  6. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    It amazes me that people expressing their opinion are unwilling to admit that other intelligent individuals of good taste hold a rather opposing opinion, and instead feel the need to smear and drag down the people holding that opposed opinion. Rather than "I dislike the game for these very tangible reasons, but others evidently like it and therefore there are things to like in it" it's "This game is garbage, it's made for a twitch happy Halo audience, and those who like it have lower standards than someone like me." I think that warrants a bit of amazement... And you think I'm joking about those terms? I'm paraphrasing parts of the contributions of Thorm and Guardian in this very thread.
     
  7. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    Counter: You're also sitting in one of the greatest concentrations of Civ V criticism on the internet. So this is not evidence.

    Show me incontrovertible evidence of this or stop using it as a talking point. Define "a lot of gamers" relative to other games, since that would be the only meaningful definition. Is 17,000 "a lot?" Is 11,000,000 "a lot?" What is "a lot?" Who defines "a lot?" Until you can answer those questions incontrovertibly (which will never happen), you have no business stating it as if it were a fact.

    It's fine that you like to pretend that you are somehow more balanced than everyone else, but nobody here has an obligation to be unbiased in the first place. We aren't the media. So you can stop calling people out for it.
     
  8. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    Who says that everyone here is unwilling to admit anything? I'm certainly not unwilling to admit anything, I'm just stating my opinion. Admitting / not admitting anything doesn't even enter the discussion, I'm not here to qualify my opinions 800 different ways before I post them. I just post them, and let others take them for what they will. And I assume they will do the same with everyone else's opinion that they read.
     
  9. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Caught in a loop?

    Nobody can be right or wrong for a simple reason; personal opinions.
    Against, for, proof, evidence, contradiction, arguments, analysis, perspective... everything.
    What happened on CFC forums in the previous months is fairly easy to grasp; Ranters blew off their heads on gameplay design critics that a few people bothered to retaliate against for a rational reason -- much of it was misleading and unsupported by facts.

    Now that v1217+ is beginning to make sense to *ALL*, the bashing fest is losing momentum (steam!) and you'd be hard-pressed to find a flaw to continue the attacks on a number of key issues.

    I'd say the destructive ploy stupidity is well over, you're beating a dead horse.
    CiV isn't perfect yet but it's waaaaaayyyyyy beyond what it once was.

    Cuz, it's not that we like or hate this game (as it stands now, today & most probably later too)... it's that we can detect superb progress on Firaxis part.
    Our patience and tolerance paid up big time.

    I showed you but only the blind can't see.
     
  10. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    Exactly what I am saying.
     
  11. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    So am i, it seems.
    Call it the magnet that draws attention on truth rather than pointless negativity.
     
  12. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Not it isn't. I can & could read your earliest remarks everywhere in these Forums too you know.
     
  13. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    That's a counter? So that lots of gamers don't like game X somehow invalidates that a lot of gamers do? You'll have to explain to me how that works. So do you and others not liking Civ V somehow counteract that I play it several times a week and get enjoyment every time, and I'm far from alone?... I'm claiming that this is evidence that a lot of people like the game, and therefore there is something to like. I really don't see the counter here - because I am NOT claiming that there aren't things to dislike. I thought I'd made that abundantly clear.

    Well, I've hardly done a census, and I likely won't be able to provide any similar data where extensive polls have been done collecting data from a large sample group of gamers from various parts of the world of various ages and both sexes etc etc...

    All I can offer are three things. One, the community here is almost as large and as strong as I've ever seen it, with a lot of contributing members. Two, the game sold very well, which in itself I realize doesn't prove the game was liked. Three, and perhaps the strongest piece of evidence:

    http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

    Civ V still features very high - #6, in fact - on games played for a major, and very popular gaming service. I fully realize that a lot of gamers have abandoned it in disdain for it, and I think it's important potential buyers know that - and why those gamers abandoned it. But... It seems like a lot of us are having a hoot with it. I'm sorry if that doesn't allow me to use the term "a lot" in your eyes, but, I'm going to continue doing so.

    Am I pretending that I'm making an effort to be balanced here? I'll happily direct someone who probably won't enjoy the game away from this game I think is pretty great because I recognize there are a lot of reasons to dislike it - heck, even go back and view my participation in the couple of "should I buy Civ V?" threads I've jumped into. I've made some effort to say "this game is fun for some, but it has these issues that may be dealbreakers for you."

    I just think it's a shame that people are unwilling to admit there's something to like in the game, because that could well scare off some gamers who may well have a great time with it. Take that as you will.
     
  14. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    Are you willing to admit that there are, in this forum, a good number of reasonably intelligent gamers who probably have OK taste who like the game very much? I'm thinking guys like Bibor and Bandarous Took, or heck, just take a gander in the strategy and tactics forum - lots of positive stuff there.

    And if you say yes to that, are you willing to admit (though it seems to obviously follow from A) that the game has elements that are sufficient to appeal to a gamer of reasonable intelligence and at least OK taste?

    This is what I'm asking. A lot of people want to say "it sucks - the game is terrible" and ignore that a lot of long term civ fans and new fans alike find the game quite enjoyable. To me, this just screams of a simple difference of opinion, but I think it's reasonable to at least admit that the people who don't share your opinions aren't idiots for doing so.
     
  15. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    That's exactly what I'm saying HERE. Is that better?
     
  16. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    I don't have to admit anything. I'm not the one "amazed" by other peoples' opinions (except in sarcasm earlier, which I tried to denote using a rolleyes smiley. Sorry if it was lost on you). If anyone needs to admit anything, it's you.
     
  17. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    It's not pointless if it's something someone may not know before they buy the game. It's just another opinion. Readers on the forum are entitled to read or not read any opinion. I could just as well call your positivity pointless.
     
  18. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    Ok, I'm getting mixed signals here.

    Then from a few posts ago...

    So you're WILLING to admit something, but won't because you don't have to? I notice you discreetly didn't bother with the content of my questions at all...
     
  19. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    :D
    It's called Civ 5 "Strategy and Tips" and at the moment is viewed by same amount of people as Civ4 Strategy and Tips section, ~50. So, freshly released game has same amount of people interested in its strategy as six year old classic.
    Why there's no War Academy for Civ5? Because there's no need for it.

    That's your overwhelming evidence?


    Whenever I see someone posting as "we", "majority" etc I can't help but not put too much weight on their arguments, sorry. Speak for yourself, and let others do the same.
     
  20. builer680

    builer680 eats too much Taco Bell

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    Beside the point. The point is that you are acting as if we have an obligation to be unbiased. We do not. Just because you "think" that you are, does not obligate anyone else to do the same. That is my point, and that is why you are off base attacking people for not being unbiased. They don't have to be.
     

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