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Civilization 5 Rants Thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ori, Dec 3, 2010.

  1. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

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    Civ 4 General Discussion. This is the place for complaining about the fifth installment, not debating specific issues with earlier versions (which is what I was saying).
     
  2. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Agreed, comparing Civ V with previous titles is fine on this thread but try to keep the focus on Civ V.

    The Civ IV general discussions forum is for posts whose primary focus is Civ IV.
     
  3. Dr. D

    Dr. D Chieftain

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    As mentioned, the Civ 4 forum is good for that. For me, Civ 4 and Civ 5 each provide their own enjoyment in different ways... both good games.

    This thread is reserved for people who are perfectly happy playing other iterations of Civ and don't play Civ 5 yet still find the need to complain about it years after the fact for some reason using hyperbolic, myopic, outdated arguments. :goodjob:
     
  4. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Nah this is the place for those people who have seen the light, appreciate a truly great game and aren't taken in by the piffle that passes for entertainment these days :D
     
  5. Dr. D

    Dr. D Chieftain

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    Piffle, nice, I'm going to add that word to my vocabulary :D
     
  6. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Anyway, Derek Paxton (aka Kael) knows what he's talking about as far as game design and modding. Fall from Heaven is a masterpiece. Anything like that being made for Civilization 5, perchance? ;)

    Here he talks about 64 bit:

    http://www.pcgamesn.com/stardocks-derek-paxton-explains-how-new-64-bit-engine-can-revitalize-strategy-gaming

    Some quotes from the article:

    So, if they want a truly great game they need 64 bit. If they want to limit themselves then by all means keep the antiquated 32 bit. I do hope Firaxis has the vision and ambition to make the right decision.
     
  7. 59saintdane

    59saintdane Chieftain

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    Are you saying that you never bought the first expansion for Civ V? Because if so, then we are talking about two different things here...Civ 5: Brave New World is 10x better than vanilla.
     
  8. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    I have watched a number of You Tube videos by Marbozir. I've watched him win a domination and science victory and am watching him gunning for a culture victory now, I believe. So, I have a pretty good idea about the expansions since Marbozir is very good at explaining why he does what he does and the strategy behind it. He is also very honest when he sees something suboptimal.

    While the expansions do address some of the problems caused by 1UPT and the horrific diplomacy as well as the late game snoozefest they are merely building on a rotten foundation. The house may look pretty respectable once the remodeling is done but the house is still in sorry shape.

    This does make me sad as I do like some of the civilizations they added. The Huns, Indonesia, Morocco, Sweden, etc. all look pretty interesting. I like quantifiable resources as well as some of the aspects of Religion in the game. While not totally necessary to gameplay, culture has been fleshed out in an interesting fashion.

    Maybe in Civ VI they'll have a solid foundation from the start and then they can build upon it with some of these creative ideas. One can hope. :)
     
  9. HeliosDisciple

    HeliosDisciple Chieftain

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    The Huns are literally the opposite of a civilization. I don't understand why they're in.

    I mean, bringing out relative nobodies like Sweden, Venice or Brazil is one thing, but the Huns didn't even have cities.


    (I'm kinda of eager to try out 1UPT, though. Sick of gigantic stacks swatting my dudes aside like freakin' Godzilla.)
     
  10. beetle

    beetle Chieftain

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    Thanks for that very interesting material. I think that is all correct, and now you have me anxious for VI and 64 bit! However, it’s tangential to the larger point I was thinking but did not articulate: You can have a terrific 8 bit game and a terrible 64 bit game.

    CivBE demonstrates Firaxis cannot tell a compelling story.

    I agree completely. I get more of that from V than I ever did III or IV. I think it is the main reason I played V so much more than III or V. The merits of 64 bit over 32 does not touch this aspect of the game.

    Aside from bigger maps, better scale, and ability for the user community to develop mods: What are the game play aspects that will make a quality iteration more like IV and less like V?

    Citation please? I got V and GnK in a box. V is also available via the Apple App Store. There are plenty of V players whose only Steam game is V. I think V did as much to raise the profile of Steam as Steam did to sell V.

    Well, it is not like that investment went to waste. New versions of games don't obsolete the old ones like happens with OS or application updates.

    Civ III was a disaster at release, and then IV and V repeated the pattern. I was about as angry as anyone, and smart enough to wait on GnK before buying V, but obviously Firaxis has figured out that their market will pay full MSRP to beta test. At this point, having pulled the same trick three times, I can't fault Firaxis, they are a for-profit company after all.

    I understand the modding community feeling betrayed. I understand that there is some movement for formal complaints regarding the on-going problems with multi-player support.

    Ah yes, the serious gamer complaining that their passion is now polluted because it accessible to the proles. More paying customers is good for us. Short of the very serious lack of mods, how is SP IV any more nuanced and sophisticated than V?

    Agreed. I have heard you assert that V is terrible, I have not heard you say why. (Okay, aside from that the maps are too small.)

    Agreed.

    Wait, challenging assertions in rants is OT?
     
  11. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Challenging rants is on topic to rants threads. Disagreements should be kept civil though.

    See post #1 by Ori.
     
  12. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Wade through this entire thread and you'll get your answer. :)
     
  13. Jayman1000

    Jayman1000 Chieftain

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    Thats a great article, really. However I don't agree with this statement: “It isn’t that the SimCity devs aren’t good at their jobs,” Paxton says. “They are probably some of the best in their field.” But fidelity and performance are approaching a crisis point for strategy games that aspire to high production values.

    I believe that SimCity 4 was much more complicated when it came to actually building and managing your city. And had MUCH larger maps. While the SimCity 5 devs might be very good ( I wouldn't deny that) they have simply chosen a game engine that sucks (imo) for a city building game like SimCity (If I had to rage about it the tiny city sizes would be the single most damaging gameplay feature to SimCity 5). Almost no matter how awesome and genius your devs is a bad engine is practically a dead end that cannot be overcome. It requires the construction of a completely new engine. This is not unlike CiV in my opinion.
     
  14. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    A bad game engine will doom a game, I agree.

    I think that the people that designed the game engine for Civilization 5 did the best they could. The problem was that they wanted AAA graphics and all the bells and whistles on a 32 bit engine. Humongous maps were automatically ruled out as the game engine couldn't handle it and they tried to placate the players by saying that 2-3 city empires were so wonderful. They also repeatedly dodged the question of map size leading up to the game's release, I recall.

    There can be a happy end to the story, however. If the developers are wise and have forethought they'll design Civ VI to be run on a 64 bit engine. That will solve a multitude of problems and won't handicap the game from the very beginning. There can be humongous maps and AAA graphics. They won't have to compromise the design to accommodate the constraints of the game engine.

    I've even heard Ed Beach say that he really wanted terraforming in the game but it just wasn't possible with the game engine.

    Here is a quote from the article:

    http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/6/27/4453070/civ-the-making-of-brave-new-world
     
  15. Jayman1000

    Jayman1000 Chieftain

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  16. beetle

    beetle Chieftain

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    Great article, thanks! You really have me looking forward to 64 bit. I really have to wonder how that will work out for us with the commercial tension to make the game work with touch on iPads.

    The bits at the end, right after the part you quote, are very telling. I am not sure why some folks keep hoping for another expansion. Emphasis added:

     
  17. Mudrac

    Mudrac Orc Warchief

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    Well there are a couple of complaints I have with CIV V.

    - The foremost is Diplomacy. It needs to be improved much more. To borrow some ideas from Paradox's games. Not to penalize Warmongers so much. To give more options to Diplomacy overall.
    - 1 UPT needs some improvements. Although having bigger maps would still deal with some issues. Because probably when they made a jump from CIV IV to V the map size stayed the same and so it meant less movement space with 1 UPT. So maybe with mentioning that 64x idea for CIV VI could work. And also Ranged Units need a nerf and Melee ones a buff.
    - Espionage that needs to be better. In BE its relatively good with more options and Intrigue system. So something similar could be used in CIV VI.
    - More techs and that eras last a little bit longer so you can immerse yourself more in the atmosphere of a given era. hehe :D

    But the Diplomacy definitely needs the most fix. Generally I would like CIV VI to try somethings different and new on its own, but still borrow some ideas from both CIV V and previous titles. But generally I love CIV V, a really epic game every time you play it. That and EU IV are pretty much the only games I play these days, can't wait for HOI 4 as well as Victoria III (eventually, really like Victoria II although I still don't understand half the things I am doing). CIV V if I want a whole human history and EU IV if I want a better diplomacy.(although the combat system in EU IV really
    sucks with those stupid Dices).

    P.S.: Kudos with the fact they rush games too much these days. Too many Alphas, Betas, Early Accesses. I want the old system went I waited for New Games and Expacs for years, but at least they were complete.
     
  18. beetle

    beetle Chieftain

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    Is the diplomacy any worse than what we had with III or IV? I understand that some games have better casus belli, so for those of us not familiar with Paradox games, can you expound a bit on what you are looking for? It was artificial, but I personally think the diplomacy in SMAC worked better than III, IV, or V.

    I respectfully disagree, and I must be wrong since the Halloween patch reduced the penalty. Really, it should not be reduced much more. But it could be more clever (casus belli, again).

    I thought the tile count actually went down? Then 1UPT makes battles need more room, and workable tiles per city increased too. So everything feels smaller even when if tile count is comparable. Agreed, more tiles would be better.
     
  19. Quineloe

    Quineloe Chieftain

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    Sweden was a large Empire for hundreds of years, spanning most of the Baltic Sea.

    Venice was a major, major power for centuries in the Mediterranean sea.

    That's really something you should know.
     
  20. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Yeah, a move to 64 bit would give me hope for Civ VI. :)

    I believe Civilization 5 has finally been put out to pasture. Perhaps a patch here and there but that's about it. That's fine by me as they seem to be working hard at Civ VI. Bring it on, I say! :D

    Here's a quote from a thread that was asking whether Civilization 5 was going to be 64 bit:

     

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