Civilization 5 Rants Thread

[Derpy Hooves]

Ok, it sounds like you wanted them to ship a "perfect" or significantly better game, in the release cycle they actually had. Once you make a pile of mistakes in development it just isn't possible to stop everything you're doing and ship something completely different. Not without losing a lot of money, which can cause the business to fold, or never do another game in a particular franchise again. I'm not apologizing for the failings of Civ, they are what they are. I'm just trying to impress upon you that there are limits to what can be changed "when you see something is wrong."

Now, when they're making the next version of the game, they have the benefit of hindsight. Hopefully they do something better. So how did the game actually improve from Civ IV to V?

• They got rid of all those ridiculous religions. We did not need another 6 possible city improvements to clutter and slow down our mouseclicking time.
• They got rid of a combat system that heavily favors defenders. It's damn boring having to buy every single kind of unit to mount an attack, lest the defenders have the right kind of unit to wipe out your force. Even when you come prepared, you're going to lose all of unit type X that you initially attack with.

I don't expect them to do much more than this between revs of the game. Wild changes push it into "not Civ" territory pretty quickly. That's my job, not Firaxis'.

If you have specific, concrete ideas on what your ideal Civ game would look like, I'd like to discuss them somewhere. I'm not sure what the right place around here is.

To make a Star Wars comparison: Phantom Menace was atrocious. Attack of the Clones wasn't nearly as bad. They got rid of Jar-Jar and dealt more with the darkness of the original story, such as Anakin slaughtering the sand people, and the existence of a secret clone army. AotC unfortunately was marred by Anakin's ridiculous love dialogue. I kid you not, when I saw it in the theater someone said out loud "Oh my god, what is this supposed to be, Shakespeare?" Nobody objected to this person speaking out loud in the movie because we all were in so much pain listening to Anakin's angst. So they corrected an old mistake... and then made a new one. Oh well! You can do all sorts of course corrections between films, but you can't change the fact that George Lucas is deficient as a screenwriter. He's gonna screw up something; I guess he's not willing to take input from people who write better than he does.

There is a big gap inbetween a 'perfect' product and an unfinished buggy mess that qualifies more as a timesink then an actual game.

And as far as the game having to be rebuilt, did you read any of the backstory on L.A. Noire? The initial team messed up alot of things, and when things looked most dire they took Rockstar by the arm and they helped them to get everything properly working, with L.A. Noire being cited as a revolutionary game.
If a tiny studio that had'nt even made a game yet can enlist Rockstar I'm sure they could've gotten someone to help them out with their crap product.

And as far as funds are concerned, I like the Blizzard or Valve policy where they release the product when it's finished, the big difference is that Blizzard and Valve actually have some creative people working there that think of working mass consumer games, IE TF2 or WOW, instead of terrible implementations of their age old formula on new mediums, IE Civ for Facebook.

As far as concrete ideas go for CiV, this entire forum is filled with them, the NIGHTS mod and the other one are BASED on that concept, as far as programming an engine goes that is'nt a buggy resource hogging mess you'll have to talk to someone who knows about that kinda stuff.

And as far as Star Wars goes, they tried to make Attack of the Clones darker but it still failed, it's not just the love scenes that are horribly written, it's the entire damn movie, the dialogue makes no sense, and the making it 'darker' does not actually fit properly with Star Wars, the old Star Wars movies had darker MOMENTS, not the entire damn movie being a constant emo sob story, none of the characters have any likeability and the entire thing is just a chain of action sequences with pretty visuals with bad plot doing nothing more then tying the action together or giving an excuse to overindulge in them. And this is comming from George Lucas, a guy who used to believe thatm and I quote: "Special effects are just a means to tell a story" and who actually ran a lawsuit against major movie companies to stop them from coloring in old black and white movies because constant updating would eventually ruin them (and look at all the terrible and needless edits he's done to the original Star Wars trilogy).
I could go on but to be honest this is prolly not the right place and as I'm sure you hav'nt seen the redlettermedia.com reviews you might want to have a look at them as they make probably the best case as to why these movies are terrible and why it all went so wrong.

 

[Xenos]

After playing CiV I can see why there is such an uproar over the game, much of it steming from diplomacy. I agree that diplomacy is one of the weakest link, but disagree it is an AI issue. For me, its the the rules that the AI has to follow that are the main problem. I will use an AI for a chess game as an example. There are certain rules in chess; bishop can make x moves, win/lose conditon etc. The AI should not interpret what is legal or not legal but simply 'play' within the rules.

The AI can constantly disregard status (backstab you even when 'friends') I suspect because the game itself has no 'rules' against it. The AI will never break a peace treaty because it the is a rule hardcoded there. The rules that are needed for effective diplomacy are not enough or not there.

 

[kcd_swede]

After playing CiV I can see why there is such an uproar over the game, much of it steming from diplomacy. I agree that diplomacy is one of the weakest link, but disagree it is an AI issue. For me, its the the rules that the AI has to follow that are the main problem. I will use an AI for a chess game as an example. There are certain rules in chess; bishop can make x moves, win/lose conditon etc. The AI should not interpret what is legal or not legal but simply 'play' within the rules.

The AI can constantly disregard status (backstab you even when 'friends') I suspect because the game itself has no 'rules' against it. The AI will never break a peace treaty because it the is a rule hardcoded there. The rules that are needed for effective diplomacy are not enough or not there.

Diplomacy should have clear rules, but the different personalities and perhaps a scaling factor for relations should provide a random unpredictable element as well. Civ IV was seen as deficient in that relationships were too predictable once you understand the game mechanics.

CiV first made the diplomacy invisible so as to give it that unpredictability, but the result was a black box that could/should be treated by players as a completely random system. They've fixed that with patches so now you know why they hate you or not... but the result is that the player sees these AI as completely insane - relati9onships don't matter. They have designed to give it an element of "unpredictability" which is laudable, but the implementation is such that they are extremely predictable in their "unpredictability" which will always lead to the same results. Maybe a good idea but bad implementation... and its so intrisic to the game --- it affects everything you have to do --- that the games become predictable and therefore boring. I doubt there is a quick fix to that.

 

[Akbarthegreat]

They got rid of all those ridiculous religions. We did not need another 6 possible city improvements to clutter and slow down our mouseclicking time.

Most players did favour religions, and that is why mods have been made for it. Religion also made the game much more interesting. And it added depth to diplomacy. But diplomacy, unfortunately, is an alien concept for ciV[denouncements at friendly status].

They got rid of a combat system that heavily favors defenders. It's damn boring having to buy every single kind of unit to mount an attack, lest the defenders have the right kind of unit to wipe out your force. Even when you come prepared, you're going to lose all of unit type X that you initially attack with.

Not with siege weapons. Even IRL, the attackers were almost always more than the defenders.

I'm sure they could've gotten someone to help them out with their crap product.

We need Rhye!

 

[logintime]

We need Rhye!

I wish Rhye were around. His RFC mod for Civ 4 was fantastic; I've sunk an untold number of hours into that mod, almost as much as I have with the actual game. Unfortunately, I think it'd be hard for him to do the same with Civ5, both because the game is so much more problematic than Civ4 and because the source code for Civ5 has yet to be released.

 

[Thormodr]

For all you people clamoring for a big Civilization 5 expansion, (yeah right ) I have bad news.

Firaxis seems to be a little distracted. Hmmmm...

Civilization developers, Firaxis are making a brand new XCOM game. This one won’t be a shooter, it’ll be a proper strategy sequel. GameInformer break the news with a quote from Firaxis head, Steve Martin, who says that they want “to keep XCOM: Enemy Unknown true to the elements that made X-COM such a revered game while delivering an entirely new story and gameplay experience for both die-hard X-COM fans and newcomers to the franchise.”

It’ll have classic XCOM staples. A global strategic map, turn based combat and destructible environments. As the leader of the global alien defense network, you’ll have to liase with global leaders, keep the civilian population in check and upgrade XCOM’s defensive capabilities. XCOM is back!

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/01/05/xcom-enemy-unknown-announced-new-xcom-strategy-game-from-the-creators-of-civilization/

 

[PhilBowles]

For all you people clamoring for a big Civilization 5 expansion, (yeah right ) I have bad news.

Firaxis seems to be a little distracted. Hmmmm...



http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/01/05/xcom-enemy-unknown-announced-new-xcom-strategy-game-from-the-creators-of-civilization/

Good news in itself. Though Xenonauts may pinch the X-Com market before it hits the shelves.

Surely Firaxis has teams working on more than one game at a time?

 

[Thormodr]

Good news in itself. Though Xenonauts may pinch the X-Com market before it hits the shelves.

Surely Firaxis has teams working on more than one game at a time?

They are not the largest of companies. I do not think Civilization 5 is going to get more than a few token people. Certainly not enough for a big expansion.

Xenonauts looks great. The X-COM FPS (Strategy games are not contemporary one), not so much. Should be interesting to watch XCOM: Enemy unknown. Sounds like they are trying to stay close to the original.

*Ugh* It is going to be multi platform and it looks like Sid is involved:

XCOM: Enemy Unknown comes out for Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and PC this fall. Until then, check up on our XCOM hub page all month long as we bring you exclusive new content including video interviews with the team leads and the legendary Sid Meier himself.

 

[PhilBowles]

They are not the largest of companies. I do not think Civilization 5 is going to get more than a few token people. Certainly not enough for a big expansion.

I think most games only have a few staff working on them. I don't know how many it actually takes to produce expansions, admittedly.

Xenonauts looks great.

It does, though it looks as though it might be trying slightly too hard to be an exact clone of the original. A new version should offer more than just better graphics - we went from Laser Squad to UFO: Enemy Unknown in less than a decade, I'm sure a similar leap can be made now. Even something like incorporating the real-time combat development of Apocalypse into a game that's truer to the original in its strategic aspect and aesthetics would be a welcome advance that stays truer to the X-Com feel than that game or the "X-Com: Aftermath/Aftershock/Afterbirth or whatever" reboots managed.

*Ugh* It is going to be multi platform and it looks like Sid is involved:

I'm not very familiar with what differences different platforms demand. A modern X-Com game probably wouldn't be very keyboard intensive (the original games predated hotkeys), so I don't know what would have to be sacrificed to make it console-accessible.

Sounds as though they're just wheeling Sid out for interviews - think they do that for most of their games, don't they?

 

[Derpy Hooves]

For all you people clamoring for a big Civilization 5 expansion, (yeah right ) I have bad news.

Firaxis seems to be a little distracted. Hmmmm...



http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/01/05/xcom-enemy-unknown-announced-new-xcom-strategy-game-from-the-creators-of-civilization/

According to wiki they have around 120 employees so they should at least be able to spare some people for a possible expansion, unless they plan to release it in a year though they would have already announced it so to be honest I doubt we'll get more then a few token DLC's.

 

[Thormodr]

According to wiki they have around 120 employees so they should at least be able to spare some people for a possible expansion, unless they plan to release it in a year though they would have already announced it so to be honest I doubt we'll get more then a few token DLC's.

The X-COM game is supposed to come out in Fall 2012.

I suppose it's possible but it is looking less and less likely that there will be a big expansion. Crappy DLC it is.

Anyway, I guess the news about the RTS Unreal Engine title seems to be X-COM:Enemy Unknown. I wonder if 2K Games s*** canned the FPS X-COM dud of an idea?

From April 2011:

Apparently going for a hat trick, Superannuation found this one, too. Former Firaxis level engineer turned Vigil senior designer Chris Doyle makes a mysterious reference on his resumé to a “unannounced Unreal Engine 3 title (PC, Xbox 360, PS3) – in development”.

Meanwhile, the resumé of character artist David Jones mentions his work on Civilization Revolution II, which continued “until the project was canceled”.

Civlization Revolution would otherwise be a hot contender for a console-bound RTS from the studio, as it released on DS, iDevice PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.

Super’s past sleuthing skills turned up an unannounced sci-fi game in the works at Firaxis, although that could be a reference to a long-rumoured (and probably long-vanished) turn-based XCOM sequel.

http://www.vg247.com/2011/04/27/firaxis-working-on-unannounced-strategy-title-civilization-revolution-ii-canned/

 

[Starhemberg]

I am a little bit sad right now after the XCOM announcement BUT i hope Firaxis will Patch CIV V in the Future and will provide better DLC.
No new leaders, no new wonders, some REAL CONTENT would be nice.

But when you take into consideration how much people play CIV V i think there will be something coming out in the Future, i mean its one of their biggest cash cows and i think they are aware that a lot of players are not satisfied with the CIV V gaming experience and their DLC business model.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I'm in a positive frame of mind (mainly because I got Skyrim last week, and have been living there ever since ).......soo......

Let's hope CIV V is just shelved and forgotten about.

I'm thinking Bond films here. There have been some stinkers, and whole periods of stinkers, but they've always eventually come back on form.

The sooner a new team (even a new company) can start work on a Civ VI, which brings back the formula we all know and love the better.

 

[jaateloauto]

I decided to give Civ V another try after some 6-8 months of not touching it. You know the reasons.

Behold, I went to build by third city to discover this message:
"You cannot found a city within 4 tiles of another city"

Meaning I couldn't use this large area I had planned to build my city in. At this point I pressed ALT+F4. How could they let their game deteriorate to the point where there are artificial limits that the cities you build have to be far away from each other just Firaxis couldn't come up with a happiness/production system that actually worked? Is this really the game that has universal acclaim on Metacritic?

 

[PhilBowles]

I decided to give Civ V another try after some 6-8 months of not touching it. You know the reasons.

Behold, I went to build by third city to discover this message:
"You cannot found a city within 4 tiles of another city"

Meaning I couldn't use this large area I had planned to build my city in. At this point I pressed ALT+F4. How could they let their game deteriorate to the point where there are artificial limits that the cities you build have to be far away from each other just Firaxis couldn't come up with a happiness/production system that actually worked? Is this really the game that has universal acclaim on Metacritic?

To quote, "Are you kidding me?", or just satirising some of the sillier complaints here?

"Cities cannot be constructed within two spaces of another city." - Civilization IV manual, reiterating a rule that existed in all three prior versions of the game.

When there are real issues with many aspects of Civ V, why on Earth do people invent arbitrary complaints based on long-standing Civ mechanics? 4 is no more arbitrary a number than 2 - the reason the distance has changed is because the old city radius mechanic has gone. The new game is designed with cities that can work larger numbers of individually less productive hexes.

Sure, you could have a system which allowed you to place unproductive cities wherever you want where they'd hinder one another's production and leave it to players to choose to play more sensibly, but then by the same argument you could eliminate the two square minimum from the earlier Civ games.

Plus, of course, allowing you to place cities too close to other cities would allow you to force enemy cities to be unproductive just by placing 'bad' cities of your own, in Civ V and in earlier games. Of course it has no relationship to the happiness constraint - without this mechanic you could build a city next to another if it was your second city or your sixteenth.

 

[RonMar]

re: city spacing.

This was reported in the patch notes. The manual which came which the original version is out of date. The updated manual found on Steam may also have some inaccuracies.

 

[trueblue]

When there are real issues with many aspects of Civ V, why on Earth do people invent arbitrary complaints based on long-standing Civ mechanics?

because there is a crazy thing going on where people think that it is their game. their way is the right way. they downloaded a couple of Mods once so the Civ franchise belongs to them.

and because they arent too clever.

Moderator Action: Unnecessary attacks, constitutes trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[NotSure]

Phil, what do you mean by "the old city radius mechanic?" If you mean the number of tiles a city can work, I don't believe that's changed. They increased the distance requirement for cities to nerf ICS. In fact, most of the changes they made were to nerf ICS such as taking specialists out of libraries, nerfing maritime CS, reducing city production and gold yields, changing Meritocracy from +1 happiness to + 0.5 (which was changed again), etc., etc.

Many people have complained that they've gone too far in some areas to kill degenerate strategies or to help an incompetent AI and, in this case, I would be inclined to agree. The change he's talking about results in some civs being unable to settle a capital on smaller maps, and every game I play has an awkward map situation like the one he showed. Now he has to move his settler and buy three tiles to get the luxury and bonuses resources he wanted. It's not the end of the world, but it is yet another annoying and unnecessary limitation to the player. Thalassicus changed the requirement back to the original setting in VEM, and it seems to work fine for the players who use that mod.

 

[trueblue]

and thats the game on offer.

you dont get to decide the rules.

all you get to do is play it.

 

[NotSure]

haha... ya, sure. And he gets to be unhappy with it. Glad we could work this out.