Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[tom2050]

While your at it, might want to spend an hour or two researching 2k as well.

2K Games put SecuROM, Games for Windows Live, and Steam all into a Single Game (Bioshock 2). Talk about over the top. This is the kind of people we have at 2K.

The main offenses included: limited, SecuROM-imposed installations; Games for Windows Live-imposed game-save restrictions, and the full Steam compliment of under-the-radar schemes.

Due to outcry (and not due to people giving Valve hugs and kisses all day), they removed much of it.

 

[Drakarska]

Agreed. My point being that the kid should actually do a bit of research and make up his own mind.

Thx for the info as well bro, I forgot about that part.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

Question: Will ciV bring this thread back on topic?

Real question: What is Ramesses speaking?

 

[Rebel44]

2K Games put SecuROM, Games for Windows Live, and Steam all into a Single Game (Bioshock 2). Talk about over the top. This is the kind of people we have at 2K.

The main offenses included: limited, SecuROM-imposed installations; Games for Windows Live-imposed game-save restrictions, and the full Steam compliment of under-the-radar schemes.

Due to outcry (and not due to people giving Valve hugs and kisses all day), they removed much of it.

Bioshock wasnt (and isnt) Steamworks game.

 

[3 EMS]

Will CIV V's MP experience be anything like what is being descibed in this thread from the [H]OCP forums? Its a PunkBuster vs VAC debate.
PunkBuster vs VAC

Will the servers be full of hackers and speedbots? (Whatever a speedbot is)
Can my account be banned by software and not even an actual person?
If, for some reason, my account is banned then I would have to buy the game a second time to play it?

 

[tom2050]

Bioshock wasnt (and isnt) Steamworks game.

It had 2 versions... a non-steam version and a Steam version. http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1116381

I'm pretty sure that all of/most of SecuRom was removed on Steam version. Not sure about the Windows Live, I think that was still there.

If Bioshock 2 can make a Non-Steam and Steam version... why can't Civ 5 make a Non-Steam and Steam version? They can, it's just that 2K is a bunch of DRM junkies like that; they compulsively flip out from 1 (or several) DRM schemes to the next and don't do anything with any consistency.

If, for some reason, my account is banned then I would have to buy the game a second time to play it?

You can try to talk to Valve to get your account reinstated, but would not be able to play any of your games (or perhaps just that single game) until the ban is lifted. Otherwise, you need to re-purchase... same with Blizzard and Diablo 2 for instance. People get banned all the time for using bots, etc.

BTW, for clarity, do they ban your whole account and all games? Or do they ban individual games?

EDIT: This should answer it, they can do both. Break any Steam rule, and your account and all your games disappear FOREVER!
EDIT: STEAM - Is it foolish to put all your eggs in one basket?

 

[PieceOfMind]

D'oh. I forgot where I was again. This post is off topic for this thread. My apologies

Spoiler :

This is a complex legal question that nobody (including lawyers) can really answer. The part of the steam EULA you quoted refers to "steam software" though, not the games you install. Regardless, in the sense you mean, you probably haven't "owned" a computer game any time in the last 20 years. See Shrink Wrap Contract and EULA.

If those agreements have legal force then at best what you are purchasing is a licence to use software and often that licence is not legally transferrable. So really, you aren't buying anything in the normal sense.

The only step further steam takes this is allowing you to not get anything physical when you buy that license. Somewhere on the Steam site it says that it's their policy to update steam in such a way that games will not require activation if the service is ever to be removed.

EDIT:
And to those deeply suspicious of Steam, consider the alternatives. Steam is by far the least bad method of copy-protection/DRM on the market. Compare Securom, Persistent connection even Always having the CD in the drive. They all cause considerably more trouble than Steam. Sure, they could go without copy protection/DRM, but that might make the people with the money nervous. And that means less money for development OR more pressure on deadlines, neither of which are positive for the game we all want to play.

The other nice thing about steam is that it serves some other good purposes. It provides services WITH the compulsory nature of all DRM/copy protection. The In-game web browser for example is excellent. Everyone here can benefit from being able to see this forum while playing. Then there is all the community/update/mod/whatever stuff that you can like or not like as you please.

The point is, if there has to be copy protection (which for most non-independant studios is the case) One-time steam activiation is the least nasty and it comes with lots of other nice things.

The difference is that with games that use something like a CD check, the DRM is usually later removed (e.g. 18 months after release). Since the game is now using Steamworks, I think it's now impossible that there will ever be a patch removing the Steam copy protection (or whatever you call the fact that you have to have Steam running in order to play).

I can definitely put up with CD checks as a form of DRM, especially when they are later completely patched out. It's hard to get less invasive than BtS in terms of DRM, and that is the most recent example of Firaxis' work to many around here (ones who didn't get into civrev).

 

[2K Greg]

If Bioshock 2 can make a Non-Steam and Steam version... why can't Civ 5 make a Non-Steam and Steam version? They can, it's just that 2K is a bunch of DRM junkies like that; they compulsively flip out from 1 (or several) DRM schemes to the next and don't do anything with any consistency.

No version of Bioshock 2 used Steamworks; it was simply sold via the Steam digital distribution system, which is a different thing. The multiplayer matchmaking, achievements, and patching were implemented via Games for Windows Live.

Civilization V uses Steamworks for all of those things and more (in-game browser, and some other things that escape my mind at the moment.)

 

[PieceOfMind]

Does DLC escape your mind? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

By the way, thank you Greg for your continued involvement around here. As much as we like to complain and give you a hard time, your presence is appreciated.

 

[Drakarska]

Does DLC escape your mind? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

By the way, thank you Greg for your continued involvement around here. As much as we like to complain and give you a hard time, your presence is appreciated.

I'd have to agree with that. It's rare that you'll actually find a rep willing to place himself in front of live ammo, even if is armor is PR glitz and Corp rhetoric. So Greg, keep up the good work.

 

[Achilleslastand]

No version of Bioshock 2 used Steamworks; it was simply sold via the Steam digital distribution system, which is a different thing. The multiplayer matchmaking, achievements, and patching were implemented via Games for Windows Live.

Civilization V uses Steamworks for all of those things and more (in-game browser, and some other things that escape my mind at the moment.)

The in game browser does nothing but bring lag,especially when you are in the game lobby...at least its like this in NTW.
Steam has all but ruined the ntw and etw community vibe with its decentralized servers,and no chat lobby. And the steam achievements are really not noteworthy to speak of.
Once again i repeat.....there is no chat lobby......if you wanna chat to a friend you have to bring up your friends list and select their name from it via the in game browser{which uses additional cpu resourses}
Some diehard civ fans are going to be in for a shock when they setup steam and see how it works.
I hope and pray things are different with civ 5 but we shall see.......

 

[tom2050]

Sorry 2K Greg, seems there is indeed alot of this-and-that going on.

It looks like the store page from Steam originally had the requirements listed as:

so 2K games announced the DRM for Bioshock 2.

DRM 1: STEAM*
DRM 2: SECUROM WITH ONLINE ACTIVATIONS
DRM 3: GAMES FOR WINDOWS LIVE

The * referred to Steam version only (so I don't get blasted).

but then updated it that same day and took Steam out. So it is partially due to 2K game mis-info that caused me to grab mis-info. I didn't read through the 17 pages at first, so I didn't catch it the first time. Partially my fault.

 

[Commander Bello]

Originally Posted by nerd
they completely ignore the whole issue of forced patches.

On the contrary, it's something we're looking in to quite a bit. The game isn't finished yet, and the team is hard at work developing it. Because of this, many things just aren't set in stone yet. So that makes things a little difficult because I want to provide you with unequivocal, definite answers.

I appreciate the patience!

Now I am concerned.

Forced patches were something which the community identified within day 1 after revealing the deal with Steam/Valve as a potential problem.

This has been revealed when? Almost two months ago?
I would assume that such a deal would have been checked for the consequences before putting the signature under the contract.
So, the "problem" should be under investigation since months.

And now we learn that "many things aren't set in stone yet"? C'mon!

Either there are no problems to be expected, in which case I assume that this would be trumpeted out loudly, or.... ?

 

[2K Greg]

I poorly formatted that post. My remark about the game not being finished was meant as a general statement, and an explanation of one reason why the FAQ is taking a bit to get finished.

If the game were finished, we probably wouldn't be releasing it in September

 

[Commander Bello]

I poorly formatted that post. My remark about the game not being finished was meant as a general statement, and an explanation of one reason why the FAQ is taking a bit to get finished.

If the game were finished, we probably wouldn't be releasing it in September

Sorry Greg, but you are on a good way to making it worse and worse.

Your statement, to which I referred (and I even included the quote to which you tried to give some kind of answer) then clearly means that the game is not finished.

Thank you very much for officially confirming this, but that is something we already assumed.

In combination, your statements according the topic of "forced updates/patches" just read:
"Please pick the option you prefer most:
a) I (2k Greg) don't have any clue due to missing information
b) I (2k Greg) know, but I won't tell you before our marketing campaign dictates to do so"

Many of the questions which have been risen in this thread don't require in depth technical discussions with NASA engineers.
They just require the willingness of the persons in charge to answer.

Since you have been confronted with these basic questions for almost 14 days now, we have to assume that any possible answer (under the assumption that it would not justify the concerns of the fanbase) will be just given when your marketing timing assumes the right time has come.
Under the assumption that some concerns in our questions are justified, most probably we will have to find out after purchase.

Thanks again, but for a community manager this seems to be a bit poor in response.

 

[CanuckSoldier]

I did my best to explain that in the posts you quoted in your post.



The use of Steam is in no way meant to replace the Civfanatics community! The Steam features should allow you to interact with the Civfanatics community even easier than before. The in-game web browser allows you to, for example, open up CFC threads from within the game to use as quick reference, or to easily post about the game you're playing.

That's just one example. Another is the way you can create a Steam group and invite a bunch of likeminded people (I'm sure there will be a CFC group!) to make inviting to multiplayer games much easier.

In no way is 2K or Firaxis trying to replace our many awesome community sites.




It doesn't.



Like most games, you can install the game off the DVD, which prevents you from needing to download the game. There will still be a boxed version in the store.

Greg the best info I can find on Steam says that Steam Group chats can only host 300 players. This is not really enough to host a private "lobby" for a fan site. Can you confirm this is a true limit?

I know that CivPlayers and WPC have Steam groups already in anticipation of Civ5 using this nice feature. But it would be even better if we could use it as a moderated lobby, but we would need alot more capacity than 300 players.

It's bad enough that the friends list is limited to 150 players in steam.

CS

 

[jabberwalkee_]

Lol, Way to promote the Steamworks Jab. It's interesting that your only painting him a nice pretty picture instead of giving him both sides of the equation.

Do you mean in my answer to the legal question or my comments about steamworks. If you mean about steamworks then, given that this thread is more or less an argument about steam it seems pretty common that comments would reflect one side or another. I haven't read you post anything nice about steam

@Commander Bello
What kind of option is that.
a) I honestly don't know
b) I'm lying about not knowing.

Ignoring the logical contradiction of the options you give it does not assume good faith. Further 2kGreg has clearly said that he will not give information if he fears that it will change for good reasons. People get very upset when promises aren't kept. This would be a pretty big commitment (it's obviously important to you) and its entirely possible that there is no answer yet. They might've intended mods to not break on updating the game, but without having a near finished build they would have no way of testing whether that is the case. I certainly wouldn't want to make that claim without being 100% sure.

Shooting the messenger (even if they are some kind of evil marketing capitalist ) just makes them less likely to do you favours. This might be the kind of information 2K/Firaxis don't want to give out right now, but if Greg is actually interested in your concern he might ask the right person nicely and get an answer. Or a maybe. Much less likely when you accuse them of being unwilling to help or treat them with hostility for doing their job (that is what 2k tells him to do). Just relax. All things will be known when the game is released anyway.

 

[nerd]

. Just relax. All things will be known when the game is released anyway.

I see you are an optimist, and I assume from this statement that you won't be buying on release date.
All things will not be known when the game is released, and if Greg continues as he has, the only way we will find out is from postings by players with issues.
I am sincerely glad that there are a fair number of people out there who like steam and will buy on release day. How else will the rest of us find out if the game has the issues we fear. Thank you, playtesters

 

[Drakarska]

Do you mean in my answer to the legal question or my comments about steamworks. If you mean about steamworks then, given that this thread is more or less an argument about steam it seems pretty common that comments would reflect one side or another. I haven't read you post anything nice about steam


Fair enough. Nice things about Steam according to Drak's opinion:

1) Lot's of faily cheap, old games. Specials on games upon occasion.

2) Chat functionality is compatable with certain games that I use a HS for

3) MP ( this could be debated though), this feature has great potential

4) Servers ( for the most part) are steady and rarely have hiccups

I have actually used Steam in the past, granted it was a few years ago, and the overall experiance ( read overall) was one of borderline hatred. It also was a real pain in the gluteus maximus to remove from all of my systems.

Since you brought it up Sir Jabber, here's my list of things I dislike about Steam from personal experiance:

1) It's a 3rd party software that is next to impossible to get completely off your system unless you know what your doing.

2) Steam can ( and will) close your acct for any reason whatso ever if a moderator deems it so. This has actually happened to my then 16yr old ( $160 worth of games down the crapper, tyvm)

3) Offline mode was about as effective as a box of rocks. Although, to be fair, rumor is they fixed that. But I'm definitely not installing Steam to test it.

4) You don't really own the games you purchase on Steam. Your basically giving Steam a butt- ton of cash for them to ALLOW you the privelage of playing a game. I'm sorry, but if I'm paying for a product, I actually like the tangeble item. Not have the potential for it disappear on a whim.

5) Steam/Valve's EULA's are filled with so many loopholes and traps that it's a wonder how they can do business let alone not be sued into oblivion by someone.

6) Steam's customer service is atrocious, In game mods have a god complex, and the forums are a cesspool that a barbery pirate might avoid after a day of pillaging.

I could go on Jabber, but you get the point. I have valid reasons to stay away from Steam. I'm glad for you that your ( and others) experiance with Steam has been great. That is your choice to accept that, and I can respect that choice. My main point all along has been about choice.
I choose not to have a 3rd party software forced upon me. I choose to actually take the time, research, and ask questions before I purchase a product. I choose how to spend my hard earned money and what to spend it on. I choose wether to bow to progress and accept the potential inevitability of DLC, or stand up and tell it to piss off and find a different way to do the things I enjoy. And if that means after all things are said and done, I choose not to purchase Civ V for my family and I, then I can live with that choice.

 

[evrett37]

The use of Steam is in no way meant to replace the Civfanatics community! The Steam features should allow you to interact with the Civfanatics community even easier than before. The in-game web browser allows you to, for example, open up CFC threads from within the game to use as quick reference, or to easily post about the game you're playing.

How secure is this in game browser ? Why would I want to use your in game browser rather than the one I've already got? Are you going to prohobit the ability to minimizing civ for a moment ? Its called "windows" not "window" so is there a reason I can run civ and my browser at the same time?. I dont see having an in game browser as being something I really need or care about..and its gotta be a security nightmare and yet another peice of software offline/non steamers wont get updates for..sounds like leftovers from console development to be honest..and prob another way for steam to slip advertisement at us.

So...100 days till release and you cant tell us how mods are going to work..or dont want to as it will scare off preorders.